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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 10-10-2024, 08:56 AM
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I often buy guns through the various auction houses but hadn’t bought anything from Rock Island Auctions in quite a few years. Their descriptions were always vague and with each purchase I ended up disappointed. I decided to give them another try in the October 3-6 event but just dipped my toe in the water, only buying one gun at a hammer price of $850. Today I received my invoice— Hammer price $850, Buyer’s premium 148.75, credit card fee 38.70, shipping 46.00, insurance 9.99, Live Bidding Fee (Proxibid) 51.00, sales tax (Joplin, Missouri) 99.84, for a total of $1,244.28. So $394.28 above the hammer price. Yes, I’m definitely done buying from them.
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Old 10-10-2024, 09:04 AM
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WOW!!!!! just WOW. That is crazy. That’s almost 50% above sale price.
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Old 10-10-2024, 09:13 AM
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If you're going to buy remotely from an auction house, you should phone bid and pay by check. It helps, but the fees still ad up.

Why did you have to pay sales tax if you're in another state?

Also, I quit buying from RIA because their starting prices make it impossible to get a good deal unless they happen to underestimate an item (which is rare).

Shipping is through the roof with everyone. Pistols (second day air) are expensive.
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Old 10-10-2024, 09:20 AM
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After auction fees have gotten so high that many potential buyers have stopped using them. I certainly have. This is a ripe opportunity for a start up auction company with modest fees. There are good shipping discounts for business customers like SMG is doing and they still make money.
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Old 10-10-2024, 09:24 AM
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I often buy guns through the various auction houses but hadn’t bought anything from Rock Island Auctions in quite a few years. Their descriptions were always vague and with each purchase I ended up disappointed. I decided to give them another try in the October 3-6 event but just dipped my toe in the water, only buying one gun at a hammer price of $850. Today I received my invoice— Hammer price $850, Buyer’s premium 148.75, credit card fee 38.70, shipping 46.00, insurance 9.99, Live Bidding Fee (Proxibid) 51.00, sales tax (Joplin, Missouri) 99.84, for a total of $1,244.28. So $394.28 above the hammer price. Yes, I’m definitely done buying from them.
Wow! I almost bid in the same auction for a group of Safety Hammerless guns. I’m really glad I didn’t now, those fees are ridiculous. I can understand the buyers premium but the live bidding fee is a joke. Don’t let the extra cost give you a sour feeling towards the gun!
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Old 10-10-2024, 09:29 AM
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The last time (probably last time ever) buying a gun through an auction house, I got hit with a $100 shipping charge. That said, an additional $400 on top of an $850 gun would have me telling them to keep it.
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Old 10-10-2024, 09:35 AM
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Why did you have to pay sales tax if you're in another .
Cut and pasted from the invoice—
Rock Island Auction Company is a Marketplace Facilitator (as defined in the applicable regulations for each state) for purposes of collecting and submitting sales tax for each applicable state.

This is becoming the norm. States have realized the enormous amounts spent on mail order, etc. and they’re no longer willing to lose out on that revenue.
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Old 10-10-2024, 09:41 AM
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For the reasons above I read the terms carefully, and "back into" an auction calculating all fees prior to placing a bid. This method helps eliminate buyer's remorse, but it quite often eliminates me as a contender, too. For those that complain about GB fees, check out what the large auction houses charge.
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Old 10-10-2024, 09:41 AM
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Rock Island Auction Company is a Marketplace Facilitator (as defined in the applicable regulations for each state) for purposes of collecting and submitting sales tax for each applicable state.
I wasn't aware of this ^^. Not all auction houses are doing it. Makes me wonder why RIA chooses to...unless it's because they're in two states now (Illinois and Texas)? or is Illinois requiring it?

I imagine 1099's are on the horizon as well.

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Old 10-10-2024, 09:43 AM
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I often buy guns through the various auction houses but hadn’t bought anything from Rock Island Auctions in quite a few years. Their descriptions were always vague and with each purchase I ended up disappointed. I decided to give them another try in the October 3-6 event but just dipped my toe in the water, only buying one gun at a hammer price of $850. Today I received my invoice— Hammer price $850, Buyer’s premium 148.75, credit card fee 38.70, shipping 46.00, insurance 9.99, Live Bidding Fee (Proxibid) 51.00, sales tax (Joplin, Missouri) 99.84, for a total of $1,244.28. So $394.28 above the hammer price. Yes, I’m definitely done buying from them.
I understand the pain. What looks like a deal at the hammer price quickly looses its luster! However, I'd like to comment on the fee breakdown.

* You can't get past the buyer's premium. It may vary with different houses, but they gotcha!

* Credit card fee is offset by whatever kickback you get from the card company. I get 2% from Citi. Or you could pay by check.

* Shipping and insurance you're stuck with. Any internet purchase is expensive to ship unless you buy from Bud's or the like. Shipping cost, although less, would still be in the total somehow.

* Proxibid? Don't use it!

* Sales tax. If your state has sales tax you're liable for it at the point of sale or the FFL. Some states are less stringent than others. My FFL charges sales tax unless you can show that you paid it to the seller. The days of tax-free internet sales are gone in this state.

I guess you just have to balance the desirability of something at an auction house with the total cost of the transaction. Some items are hard to find and when they show up, ya gotta pay!
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Old 10-10-2024, 09:46 AM
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Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me

'Cause I'm the taxman
Yeah, I'm the taxman

Should five percent appear too small
Be thankful, I don't take it all

'Cause I'm the taxman
Yeah, I'm the taxman

(If you drive a car, car) I'll tax the street
(If you try to sit, sit) I'll tax your seat
(If you get too cold, cold) I'll tax the heat
(If you take a walk, walk) I'll tax your feet
Taxman!
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Old 10-10-2024, 09:50 AM
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Everything you were charged for is posted on the bidding site. Actually, Rock Island has one of the lowest buyer premium IF you buy on the RIA bidding platform @ 17.5% online buyers premium by paying with check or money order. You can save an additional 1% bidding by phone. Every auctioneer charges state sales tax, credit card fee, shipping, and buyers premium. If you buy on Proxibid you pay 27% buyer premium for RIA auctions.

Bottom line is that potential buyers should first look at the auction site to see if they offer their own bidding platforms and plan to pay by USPS Money Order of check. Most of all, know up front what all these charges actually mean and how much total premium you will pay.

RIA is nowhere near the highest buyer premium site on Proxibid. Morphy Auctions charged 40% BP not long ago.
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Old 10-10-2024, 09:53 AM
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I know two local auction companies that charge from 15.5% to 19% buyer's premium. Then sales tax. And if you're not or can't pick up in person, one charges handling fees in addition to postage. The other uses a third party shipping company to pack the items, and they really burn you up on cost.
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Old 10-10-2024, 09:54 AM
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On a related note, simple online auctions since sales taxes were mandated to be collected add about 15-20% to the final cost. What gets me above that is sales tax is calculated on not only the price but the shipping cost. So what appears to be a “bargain” quickly becomes not so much.
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Old 10-10-2024, 10:03 AM
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The thing about Rock Island is that they get items that are hard to find. Their descriptions are usually accurate and the pictures are good although you're responsible for knowing what you're buying (the ad may say "with box" but it doesn't necessarily say its "the" box or even a box for that model gun. Many items go for premium prices but now and then, as with any auction, some bargains sneak through. Not the best place to buy relatively common firearms that can be found elsewhere.

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Old 10-10-2024, 10:06 AM
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You can save an additional 1% bidding by phone.
Do you save 1% by bidding by phone or do you pay an extra 1% for using that feature? I haven't used it but according to their website using their "bid by phone" feature ads 1%.

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Old 10-10-2024, 10:18 AM
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Every auctioneer charges state sales tax.

RIA is nowhere near the highest buyer premium site on Proxibid. Morphy Auctions charged 40% BP not long ago.
I just bought pistols and knives from Amoskeag last month. I had three pistols and four knives shipped together to save on cost. No sales tax on either end.

Morphy's is currently showing a 26% BP on Proxibid for CC purchases. They were one of the first to jump into the upper 20% on fees and I quit buying from them years ago.

As I mentioned in a previous post, bid by phone and pay by check. Buy multiple items to lower shipping cost per item and only deal with auction houses that do their own packing/shipping. Third party packers will really nail you.
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Old 10-10-2024, 10:26 AM
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Do you save 1% by bidding by phone or do you pay an extra 1% for using that feature? I haven't used it but according to their website using their "bid by phone" feature ads 1%.

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The 1% fee is for using the RIA live bidding platform.

Phone bid and pay with a check -- 17.5% plus sales tax and shipping.

Again, do your homework. Not every auction house charges sales tax for out of state bidders and not every auction house does their own packing/shipping. Overall costs vary significantly.
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Old 10-10-2024, 10:35 AM
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If I win/buy from a local auction house by sealed bid and pay by check the cost WAS 12% but now good ole CA has added an 11% excise tax on all thing's firearm related. Colorado just passed a similar law of 6.5%.
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Old 10-10-2024, 10:50 AM
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Definitely make there inflated share off the sales!
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Old 10-10-2024, 11:20 AM
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The 1% fee is for using the RIA live bidding platform.

Phone bid and pay with a check -- 17.5% plus sales tax and shipping.

Again, do your homework. Not every auction house charges sales tax for out of state bidders and not every auction house does their own packing/shipping. Overall costs vary significantly.
Thanks for the clarification. You'd think, I would anyway, that the automation of the process (live bid platform) would cost less than having an employee in a one on one bidding process that could go on for some time depending how many items in which a bidder had interest.

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Old 10-10-2024, 11:37 AM
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I often buy guns through the various auction houses but hadn’t bought anything from Rock Island Auctions in quite a few years. Their descriptions were always vague and with each purchase I ended up disappointed. I decided to give them another try in the October 3-6 event but just dipped my toe in the water, only buying one gun at a hammer price of $850. Today I received my invoice— Hammer price $850, Buyer’s premium 148.75, credit card fee 38.70, shipping 46.00, insurance 9.99, Live Bidding Fee (Proxibid) 51.00, sales tax (Joplin, Missouri) 99.84, for a total of $1,244.28. So $394.28 above the hammer price. Yes, I’m definitely done buying from them.
All of that is plainly spelled out on their website, and you have to click to accept the terms. It shouldn't have been a surprise. When I buy from them, I take all of that into account when I decide how much I'll bid. I don't buy much from them, but I have bought a few times.
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Old 10-10-2024, 11:38 AM
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The 1% fee is for using the RIA live bidding platform.

Phone bid and pay with a check -- 17.5% plus sales tax and shipping.

Again, do your homework. Not every auction house charges sales tax for out of state bidders and not every auction house does their own packing/shipping. Overall costs vary significantly.
Thanks for the clarification. Checked the RIA site and find the same statement on Live Bidding only. Phone is the same as absentee and online bidding.

I have not found a site that does not charge sales tax yet, and if one does not, I believe they are violating all the 45 state laws that have been enacted. Non-sales tax states are Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, and Oregon
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Old 10-10-2024, 11:44 AM
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Thanks for the clarification. You'd think, I would anyway, that the automation of the process (live bid platform) would cost less than having an employee in a one on one bidding process that could go on for some time depending how many items in which a bidder had interest.

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I think they're charging the 1% as an offset to someone just putting in a bid on the website before the auction and riding it out to see if they won. I've done that before with them and won some and lost some. I just put in the max I'm willing to pay, factoring in the additional stuff coming afterwards, and then check the day after the auction to see if I won.
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Old 10-10-2024, 11:56 AM
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Buyer’s premium and bidders fee are the two I don’t like. It’s like a double dip. I wonder how bad the sellers fees are? Anybody know? I think there is a misconception on shipping cost. As an FFL I ship several handguns a yr. Unless it’s a very expensive gun requiring a lot of insurance it’s always under $30. Usually a $18.99 priority flat rate box from USPS. Add signature and it’s $23…. Anything above that is what a shipper is charging for their time. In this cases it should be part of buyer premium. When I see sellers on gun broker who are FFLs charging $75 I cringe.
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Old 10-10-2024, 12:00 PM
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Thanks for the clarification. You'd think, I would anyway, that the automation of the process (live bid platform) would cost less than having an employee in a one on one bidding process that could go on for some time depending how many items in which a bidder had interest.

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A local auction house here in Va. has at least two to three firearms/sportsman’s auction a year. A lot of the firearms are from estates auctions that they do and hold the firearms for that auction. Before Covid they were live (in person) with telephone, sealed bid, on line options. Loved to go to the live auctions and got some really nice pieces at good prices over the years. The buyers fee was 15% for cash check.
The owner sold the business and now all auctions estate, real estate and firearms, coins are online only. Haven’t bought any since then. Seems all auction houses are going this way.
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Old 10-10-2024, 12:57 PM
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I have an ever growing list of auction houses I won't deal with because of their markups.

It's all about reading the terms. During one of the huge Darnell auctions here in Vegas, I watched a guy bid on a Smith revolver then immediately go to pay. He came back grumbling about the buyer's premium and taxes. I exchanged glances and eyerolls with the guy next to me, then showed him my 'total cost' cheat sheet. He smiled and nodded towards Mr Grumbling and said, "Pays to plan ahead."
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Old 10-10-2024, 01:03 PM
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I have an ever growing list of auction houses I won't deal with because of their markups.

It's all about reading the terms. During one of the huge Darnell auctions here in Vegas, I watched a guy bid on a Smith revolver then immediately go to pay. He came back grumbling about the buyer's premium and taxes. I exchanged glances and eyerolls with the guy next to me, then showed him my 'total cost' cheat sheet. He smiled and nodded towards Mr Grumbling and said, "Pays to plan ahead."
I have one also. Learned early on that you can get caught up in the bidding at a live auction. Constantly checking my cheat sheet at any auction,
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Old 10-10-2024, 01:19 PM
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Some of my favorite things to hear complaints about:
1. A perceived flaw in a new gun, by the person who bought it without really looking at it;
2. High auction house fees, from folks who never bothered to read and understand the terms of sale before bidding.
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Old 10-10-2024, 01:23 PM
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Rock Island's fees are pretty stiff but when you factor in the USD to CAD conversion, a $1700.(USD) purchase becomes $2900!
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Old 10-10-2024, 02:25 PM
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I would be curious what the seller took in on the $850 hammer price.
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Old 10-10-2024, 04:21 PM
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I have not found a site that does not charge sales tax yet, and if one does not, I believe they are violating all the 45 state laws that have been enacted. Non-sales tax states are Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, and Oregon
Maybe that's it ^^^. Amoskeag is in NH, but they didn't charge me Georgia sales tax either. My invoice is dated 9-8-24, just a month ago.

Fees are steep no matter how you bid and the sales tax makes it worse.
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Old 10-10-2024, 04:23 PM
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I would be curious what the seller took in on the $850 hammer price.
The last time I called RIA, they wanted 30% for small collections.
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Old 10-10-2024, 04:27 PM
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I won my first Rock Island auction the other day. Hammer price was $1400...ok not bad. After shipping, tax, buyer premium, cc charge, and insurance, the total is $1951. And I will probably pay another $100 for the dealer that brings them in....might be my last foray with them. $92 UPS, when it would probably have gone in a USPS large flat rate for $26. I thought I'd be all in around $1800.

Three Smith & Wesson Double Action Revolvers | Rock Island Auction
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Old 10-10-2024, 04:47 PM
444 Magnum 444 Magnum is offline
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$92 UPS, when it would probably have gone in a USPS large flat rate for $26.

Three Smith & Wesson Double Action Revolvers | Rock Island Auction
Pistols have to ship 2nd day air.

Did I miss the leafy scroll engraving?
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Old 10-10-2024, 05:32 PM
raljr1 raljr1 is offline
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Pistols have to ship 2nd day air.

Did I miss the leafy scroll engraving?
USPS Priority mail flat rate boxes work, I have used them with my dealer a dozen times.
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Old 10-10-2024, 05:59 PM
mrcvs mrcvs is offline
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Auctions for the last ten years, until recently (the last few years) used to be a sweet spot. Not many bidders, less who could spot a bargain, low buyer’s premiums, limited competition, no sales tax, and reasonable shipping.

No more!

More and more folks with deep pockets seem to bid, and bid unrealistically, determined to get an item at any cost. Or don’t know, and there are more bidders than ever. Increased hammer prices mean more commission for the auction house at a set buyer’s premium, but this isn’t good enough, and buyer’s premiums seem to go up frequently at auction houses. The logic is unbeknownst to me, but it’s the same as the ill founded claim that you now need to tip 20% instead of 10% because of inflation, never mind that the tip doubled already because the meal cost doubled as well??? Then there’s sales tax that I account for when I bid, and others don’t, which handicaps me relative to others. In the past, there wasn’t any, until the Supreme Court decided to rule in favour of the States, no matter if it’s Constitutional or not. Leave at least one loophole out there, for crying out loud. And then shipping seems to have doubled in the last few years.

And it’s even not rosy for consignors. Auction houses now 1099 sales. And, I’m sure, seller’s premiums have increased as well.

Costs buyers more, sellers net less, the government and auction companies and shipping companies all benefit.

AVOID THE MIDDLEMAN! Sell in the Classifieds section of this forum.
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Old 10-10-2024, 06:02 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
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444 Magnum makes a good point---bid by phone and pay by check.

I'm not sure of these numbers I'm going to run my mouth on, but I should make my point anyway. I'm thinking you'll find RIA's buyer premium is 17%. Any more than that is because YOU chose to run it up. Proxibid's add-on is 6%. Charge cards are 4%. Any other extras are what YOU chose to make them!

There's a sticker on the front page of most/many insurance contracts----says "Please read your policy!"

It might help if you also read the auction house's admonitions.

Ralph Tremaine

And speaking of bidding by phone, why bid at all-----just so your competitors can raise your bid? I tell the nice ladies on the phone I won't be making any bids, to just tell me when it's time to buy the gun----saves wear and tear on your nerves. Then I buy it----or not!

Last edited by rct269; 10-10-2024 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 10-10-2024, 08:55 PM
TheTinMan TheTinMan is offline
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Amoskeag doesn’t charge sales tax because there is no sales tax in New Hampshire. 👍

In most cases, a national auction house has no choice but to charge sales tax. Maine is so aggressive about collecting sales tax that I’ve found 2 national sellers of ammunition who will not ship to my state. One was kind enough to explain that they got a bill for over $30,000 for tax on sales that had occurred over the preceding year or more. I wouldn’t do business here either.

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The thing about Rock Island is that they get items that are hard to find. Their descriptions are usually accurate and the pictures are good although you're responsible for knowing what you're buying (the ad may say "with box" but it doesn't necessarily say its "the" box or even a box for that model gun. Many items go for premium prices but now and then, as with any auction, some bargains sneak through. Not the best place to buy relatively common firearms that can be found elsewhere.

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In their Premier auctions, Rock Island offers some rare firearms in excellent condition. This summer I bought Registered Magnum #302 with a factory letter confirming that it was shipped with the grip adapter, the original order form, the invoice, and the letter from D.B. Wesson assigning the number. Did I have to pay for it? Of course. Could I have found it anywhere else? Highly unlikely.

Two points I’ll add about dealing with Rock Island, one good one and one not so much. Their descriptions are accurate but you have to read them very carefully and know what Rock Island’s wording means. I’ve been looking for a high condition Winchester Model 70 for a while but that’s not my collecting niche. When RIA describes a rifle as “upgraded” that means a stock replacement, refinishing, or ____. Fortunately I didn’t learn this the hard way. My second point is to call them if you have any questions. That’s how I learned what “upgraded” meant. If the description doesn’t say “mechanically excellent”, that might mean they didn’t bother typing those words or it could mean it’s not mechanically excellent. I don’t know if they’ll do this for everyone, but I’ve had them take my questions on multiple firearms and reply in detail within a day or two.

Amoskeag seems more straightforward about their descriptions and they are very accommodating about answering questions. There’s also the added benefit of being 90 minutes away so I can go to every preview.

Last edited by TheTinMan; 10-10-2024 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 10-10-2024, 09:33 PM
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The seller also paid a 20 % seller fee to them plus shipping. If the firearm is special and goes to specialist sell they will reduce seller commission to 15%.
I have a NC auctioneer license. I don't use it much but have been thinking getting in. I think there is a market for regular sellers and buyers. Gunbroker is over whelming and a lot of fees.

Covid changed the auction process and auction house can get more money for the seller using the internet and reduce their labor costs and operating costs.
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Old 10-10-2024, 10:04 PM
luvsmiths luvsmiths is offline
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I would be curious what the seller took in on the $850 hammer price.
25% less than hammer. If they haven't gone up.

When all added up RIA makes about 45% on their "sales"

No thanks.

Last edited by luvsmiths; 10-10-2024 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 10-11-2024, 12:17 AM
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Default RIAC rip off!

I just won a J frame, for my collection, that I have been trying to find for awhile now! The gun I wanted was in a lot of 3 different J frames. The hammer price was $1800.00 and my invoice was $2473.34! That's over 1/3 of the hammer price! I will be receiving 3 guns, one of which I really want! This means I need to sell two of the guns in order to recoup some of the money I spent. Basically I spent $824.44 per gun and two of these J frames are not worth that amount. The third gun is worth a little more than the $824.44. I have a chance in not having paid too much over market on my prize. Now the question I have, will I be breaking a BATF regulation by selling the two guns, without and FFL, I don't want and probably at a loss on paper?
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Old 10-11-2024, 06:44 AM
Leroy Thompson Leroy  Thompson is offline
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Carol Watson has lower fees, is reputable, and has good Smith & Wessons
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Old 10-11-2024, 07:07 AM
22hipower 22hipower is offline
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Now the question I have, will I be breaking a BATF regulation by selling the two guns, without and FFL, I don't want and probably at a loss on paper?
jcelect
The combining of desirable guns with less so ones in one lot is irritating although I understand why it is done.

Breaking a BATF regulation by selling the two you don't want? None of which I'm aware. I'm not familiar with Ohio laws but here in Texas selling guns to other Texas residents is a little like selling hammers, no paperwork required, although I might hold them awhile before heading to a gun show.

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Old 10-11-2024, 07:27 AM
raljr1 raljr1 is offline
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Now the question I have, will I be breaking a BATF regulation by selling the two guns, without and FFL, I don't want and probably at a loss on paper?
jcelect
If you sell them thru an FFL, meaning that the buyer competes the 4473, there is no issue whatsoever. Face to face sales like those legal in Texas, Florida, and some other states, not sure.

In my case, I believe the 32 target and the 38RP are worth enough that I will not be under water if I sell the 32HE. But it is certainly a risk when buying lots like this.
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Old 10-11-2024, 08:17 AM
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That’s exactly why I don’t buy from auctions. If I can’t find it locally at shows, shops, swap meets, etc., I go without. Plus, the hunt is 50% of the experience.
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Old 10-11-2024, 09:03 AM
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Yeah, I’ll stick to shows and the forum. With an occasional GB buy when the shipping cost doesn’t have to come with lube.
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Old 10-11-2024, 09:16 AM
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. . . Now the question I have, will I be breaking a BATF regulation by selling the two guns, without and FFL, I don't want and probably at a loss on paper?
jcelect
Almost certain if you intend to sell out-of-state. Most states now require handguns to be sent to an FFL and not the buyer. You have to read Ohio laws, since a few states still allow person-to-person handgun sales, but I doubt there are more than a handful left.
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Old 10-11-2024, 02:52 PM
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Auction houses are in business. They have buildings, lots of employees and lots of bills. Yes, they charge you to sell, catalog, and handle your guns, yes they charge you to buy the guns too. I think there are a lot of decent deals in the RIA Sporting and Collector events. I just got 3 at the most recent one, all S&W, all 5 screw N-frames that are rarely found in shows or stores anymore. Since I am a Texan, I take my stuff home with me after the auction, no shipping, transfer, or insurance. I make a chart of bidding price and price+buyer premium+TX sales tax, so I know what I am actually bidding. All 3 guns I won were hundreds less than the values in SCSW 4.
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Old 10-11-2024, 02:59 PM
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I was exploring the possibility of auctioning-off my collection of some 347 vintage S&Ws, Brownings, Colts and Winchesters most of which are sitting in their original correct boxes. I called two auction houses - Morphy and RIA about traveling to my home and picking up all of them for one of their auctions last year.

The discussion over the phone eventually got around to what would happen to the pieces that didn't sell and had to be returned to me. What I was told really blew me away - that is, that I would have to do an ATF Form 4473 and undergo a background check on EACH one of them! On top of that, the firearms would have to be returned to an FFL holder who would charge me his/her usual fee to execute the 4473s and hand them back to me even though I executed the 4473s many moons ago when I acquired them. Anyone ever heard of such a thing when trying to sell one's collection through an auction house? Like I said, I was flabbergasted in hearing this from the folks at each of these auction houses so I backed-off on the idea.
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