Victory Experts, Correct Web Gear Spare Ammo Pouch .38 Victory?

Bell Charter Oak Holsters · May 7, 2009

I finally found some time to acquire and assemble WWII OD web pistol belt, Carlisle first aid pouch and Victory flap holsters, for a few of my Victory models.

Can anyone tell me what the correct combat/field issue, .38 spare ammo pouch was and post a photo? I was wondering if it was a specific issue item or if most troops used an additional Carlisle? Thanks!

digi-shots · May 7, 2009

Hi Lefty,

There is a specific "ammo pouch" for the .38 revolver. There's a photo shown in Charlie Pate's book, "US Handguns of WWII", on page 284 and 285. When the pouch is closed and snapped it looks very similar to a Carlisle pouch. When opened it reveals 6 cartridge loops. The one in the book is stamped "Property U.S. Navy".

I've been looking for one of these for quite a while and haven't found one yet!

The book shows 2 pouches, the one on the left is for the M1917 revolver and.45 cartridges. I've got one of those to go with my S&W M1917.

Hope this helps,
Linda
S&WCA #1965

Bell Charter Oak Holsters · May 9, 2009

Hi Linda;

Thanks for the info, but I don't have the book, but I found a photo of the correct pouch on page 141 of SCSW. I've recently acquired two LEATHER GI revolver spare ammo pouches for my Military Police collection, one dated post WWII '47, the other Vietnam era, but I'll be doggone if I can find the OD canvass web type anywhere. I also have the triple pouch 1917 for the half moon clips in my WWI collection. Thanks for trying to help. Cheers!

digi-shots · May 9, 2009

Hi Lefty,

I guess the hunt is on! I haven't found one either. I'm going to have to step up my search and see what I can find.

The photo in the book shows one with a US NAVY stamping, I don't know what other service branches used. I've seen loops sewn on the shoulder strap of some BOYT holsters. I think these were aftermarket or custom loops that the pilots had made.

Here's a pic of my S&W model 1917 with the 3 tier OD ammo pouch.

Linda
S&WCA #1965

ordnanceguy · May 9, 2009

Originally posted by oldflatfoot:
Can anyone tell me what the correct combat/field issue, .38 spare ammo pouch was and post a photo? I was wondering if it was a specific issue item or if most troops used an additional Carlisle? Thanks!

Lefty:

The leather ammo pouches were all post-WW2. Digi has correctly identified the US Navy marked pouch for the pistol belt as the one that is most often thought of as WW2 issue for Victory Models carried on the belt. (Shoulder holsters and ammunition carriage are a whole different subject not addressed here.)

Period photos of the rather flimsy, 6-round Navy marked fabric pouch are very scarce. I don't recall having seen any that were positively identified as WW2. One dated photo in my collection showing that pouch is Korean War era. It shows two Naval Aviators, one of whom has the pouch on his pistol belt.

What really happened in service in WW2 was one of two things. First, the ammunition was carried loose. (All of the WW2 period photos of Victory belt holsters in my collection lack a visible ammunition pouch.) Second, the authorized method of carriage of .38 Special ammunition was as specified in the US Navy's Bureau of Ordnance Catalog of Navy Material. It specifies the "Pouch, 1st Aid packet (used with the revolver as ammunition carrier)". This was Stock Number 74-2-260. Interestingly enough, no mention is made of the Navy-marked pouch in the Catalog.

So, take your pick!

Hope this helps you.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF Member

Walter Rego · May 9, 2009

About 20 years ago I bought a complete Victory Model rig at a gun show. The gun lettered as being shipped to the Navy Yard in Oakland. It came in one of the so called "Shore Patrol" flap holsters, attached to a 1936 pistol belt and with one of the 6 round canvas cartridge carriers being discussed. The cartridge carrier is marked Property U.S. Navy but is undated. I have seen them offered for sale on ebay a few times, but they don't seem common.

Bell Charter Oak Holsters · May 11, 2009

Charlie;

Thanks! You've confirmed my suspicion. I long ago acquired a WWII era OD belt, with Victory flap holster (unmarked as usual) but it had two Carlisle pouches. One of them was positioned exactly where the 1911 .45 Magazine Carrier would have been carried (by the belt snap) and had a fair amount of verdigris inside, which led me to conclude it had brass ammo carried/stored in it for a long while. I asked the original owner about it but all he could tell me was that it had been brought home by a relative after the war ended. This fellow claimed the relative, his "Uncle", was a Lt. Colonel who served on Eisenhower's staff. I also bought a Heiser made holster and gunbelt (non G.I.) for the 1917 from the same estate.

Thanks again Charlie, your reply was very helpful.

Edited to add;

This is a photo of a GI leather pouch that was worn on the Sam Browne type belt with belt hanger/adapter and shoulder strap by Army M.P.'s carrying 1911A1 .45 autos, along with the leather double mag carrier and handcuff case. Post WWII. I can't remember if it was a first aid pouch or spare ammo pouch. It is dated 1947. Anyone care to comment?

m-1911 · May 11, 2009

Here are some pics of my Navy rig with the Navy marked ammo pouch

digi-shots · May 11, 2009

Gary, very nice...

Thanks for posting the pics!

Linda
S&WCA #1965

ordnanceguy · May 11, 2009

Originally posted by oldflatfoot:
This is a photo of a GI leather pouch that was worn on the Sam Browne type belt with belt hanger/adapter and shoulder strap by Army M.P.'s carrying 1911A1 .45 autos, along with the leather double mag carrier and handcuff case. Post WWII. I can't remember if it was a first aid pouch or spare ammo pouch. It is dated 1947. Anyone care to comment?

Hi Lefty:

You are most welcome.

The pouch you show is indeed for the first aid bandage to be used on the belt/shoulder strap rig by Military Police. Your example was manufactured by JQMD (Jeffersonville Quartermaster Depot). Although it is capable of being used for ammo carriage that is not what its intended use was.

BTW, your example has been blackened on the front side, which suggests to me that it was used post-1956 after the change to black leather equipments was promulgated by the US Army. This was a common modification.

See the photo below from my archives which depicts this pouch in use in 1946 by MPs located in occupied Germany. They are armed with M1911A1 pistols.

I hope that information helps you.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF Member

Walter Rego · May 11, 2009

M-1911, the rig in your photo is identical to the one that came with my Victory Model. Lefty, those leather Carlisle bandage pouches will also hold 5 twelve gauge shotgun shells too

Bell Charter Oak Holsters · May 11, 2009

My thanks to all of you for your replies!

Charlie;

Here's a photo of Saff Sgt. Thomas Loughnan, USAF, taken when attached to the Armed Services Police in New York City, about 1959. The series of photographs of this fellow were published in Chic Gaylord's, HANDGUNNERS GUIDE c.1960 I have the identical "patent leather" MP/AP Sam Browne rig in the Bell Charter Oak Company holster morgue, along with many other MP/AP related items from WWII through Vietnam eras. I thought you might enjoy the photo, which shows the equipments we've been discussing rather well.

Victory Experts, Correct Web Gear Spare Ammo Pouch .38 Victory?

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