OSS or CIA guns...?

digi-shots

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I was reading something the other day that mentioned the use of "sterile" (no serial number) Browning Hi Point 9mm during the Vietnam war.

Does anyone know if S&W made any sterile guns for either WWII or Vietnam?
 
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I was reading something the other day that mentioned the use of "sterile" (no serial number) Browning Hi Point 9mm during the Vietnam war.

Does anyone know if S&W made any sterile guns for either WWII or Vietnam?
 
Yes, the S&W 39 and 59 were made without serial numbers and issued with a suppressor. They were known as the "Hushpuppy" and issued with subsonic ammo. The cover story was that they were supposed to be used to neutralize guard dogs. If you believe that, well, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that I'll sell you cheap. I was told by a SF/SOG type that the piece worked very well on "guard dogs", and that most had, or were modified with a slide latch to make them even more quiet in operation.
 
I can't tell you if the were "Made Sterile" by a Factory but I do know that while in Vietnam I saw and handled several Ruger Mark I's without serial numbers. And, a couple of Swedish "K" submachine guns without out any markings of any kind. As part of my 'job' I "processed" a fair number of firearms with serial numbers which had been damaged or had had their numbers removed or attempted to be removed.

MAK
 
I would really like to some real evidence--a magazine article, a government publication, a factory letter, anything!--that documents such "sterile" guns.
 
Originally posted by digi-shots:
Does anyone know if S&W made any sterile guns for either WWII or Vietnam?

Hi Linda:

The S&W Victory Model revolvers shipped to the OSS in WW2 were serial numbered. The same is true for the Colt Pocket Automatics that went to the OSS.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
 
When I was in Vietnam, 68-69 I saw several of the "sterile" Swedish K's. I wanted one of them in the worst way, but never got one. I had my own Thompson that I bought off of a SF guy going on R&R. The Swedish K's were mostly used by, what we all thought were CIA para military. Many just wore civies. They all were a light green color as I remember.
 
Originally posted by kwill1911:
I would really like to some real evidence--a magazine article, a government publication, a factory letter, anything!--that documents such "sterile" guns.

Kevin, me too! I've read numerous 2nd hand accounts of such "sterile" guns but can't seem to find anything published by manufacturers, etc.
 
Originally posted by ordnanceguy:

The S&W Victory Model revolvers shipped to the OSS in WW2 were serial numbered. The same is true for the Colt Pocket Automatics that went to the OSS.

Regards,
Charlie Flick

Thanks, Charlie! I read in Charlie Pate's book that the OSS Victory models did have serial numbers.

I also read somewhere that there were some Colt pockets had a "punch prick" that was supposed to be a "US proof mark" even though the gun might not have any US Property or ordnance stamps.

I don't know what part of Florida you're in.. but just wondered if you ever attend the Jacksonville gun shows. My husband and I will be in Jax this weekend and will probably check out the show.

m-1911, Gary, was it common to barter or buy weapons? I guess no one really cared about keeping track of the numbers, etc. paperwork.
 
Hi digi, the Jacksonville show this weekend is one of the bigger shows we have here. Should be real crowded. Like most shows lots of new stuff but usually some other nice things as well. I'll be there Saturday morning

Phideaux
 
I saw several of the S&W made "Hush Puppies" but I don't believe they were made "completely" by Smith and all of the ones I saw had serial numbers in addition to 'Suppressors' and special holsters. The Swedish "K"s(all had 'Suppressors' and a couple of magazines) were the only ones I saw without any markings at all. A couple of them I had ended up in a kind of "Museum" that I put together while I was there. The "Best" one was complete with a "Suppressor" and 5 or 6 magazines and was contained in an Aluminum Case, also without any markings.

The Rugers were all marked Ruger but didn't have serial numbers but several have 'Suppressors' and I had a supply of subsonic 9mm and .22LR ammo available for issue. I also had 7.62X39 ammo that was shipped in Winchester crates but had what looked like "Russian" headstamps that I was allowed to issue to LRRPs, SOGs, SEALS and SFs units.

As far as I know, I don't think serial numbers were "Required" by law until the '68GCA. I know I've seen and owned a number of older firearms without serial numbers and I'm quite sure they never had any. My first rifle was a Winchester 67A 'Boys Rifle' that didn't have any serial number.

I have been told(by the Division Historian) that a "Museum" of automatic weapons came back from Vietnam with the 1st Cav Division. From what he said it was just about the same size as the one I had built in Phouc Vinh, RVN.

MAK
 
Mike, Are you saying that my Model 59 with no serial number, will not letter? How about my Model 29 Tunnel Gun, with one inch barrel & no numbers, (aka: Silent Flechette Launcher). Heavens to Betsy, what's a poor old collector to do!
 
Ed

I am afraid that you are out of luck on both of yours. On the other hand,
if you can remember what the numbers were before they mysteriously
disappeared, then maybe we can get you a letter.

Later, Mike Priwer
 
From what I'm reading here, it seems that there have been sightings of S&W's without serial numbers, including both semi-autos and revolvers.

Does anyone know if they were manufactured this way or were they altered after they left the factory?
 
Mike, thanks!

I can appreciate you not openly discussing matters like this.

Do you know if the factory also made any revolvers without serial numbers?

I wonder how you could tell the "real deal" from one that had the number removed and buffed, polished, etc.? It'd be interesting to learn if there was an "extra" mark hidden somewhere on the gun that would identify these guns. Were they all shipped to one particular location or agency?

Thanks,
Linda
SWCA #1965
 
Thanks, Mike.

I understand what you're saying... clandestine, ie. CIA, ASA, DIA, MID, or whoever.

Just wondered if this applied to revolvers also?

I've heard of some guns with no serials, some had S&W markings and others didn't.

You mentioned:

"If a gun was made without a serial number, then you can not know that simply by observing the gun. One has to know, by some other means, that it was made that way."

I would think that just by looking at it, you'd see there's no serial number.. ??

Unless you mean you have to access to some kind of paperwork showing when & how the gun was originally ordered & shipped. I don't know if this "paperwork" would be something on file at the factory or held by the original purchaser.

Linda
 
digi-shots,

Two points:

1. Surely you mean Browning Hi-Power pistols, not "High Points", a name sometimes associated with Saturday Night Specials.

2. A gun not having a serial number does not make it "sterile", only an oddity which actually attracts more attention than if it had a serial number.

RKO

Originally posted by digi-shots:
I was reading something the other day that mentioned the use of "sterile" (no serial number) Browning Hi Point 9mm during the Vietnam war.

Does anyone know if S&W made any sterile guns for either WWII or Vietnam?
 
m-1911,

Was it the "CIA para military" that were green, or the Swedish K's?

My Swedish K was definitely always green, although I sometimes felt that way too, especially on the morning after Oktober Fest in the Delta 1968. My Uzi was a dull black, probably painted, while the Winchester Model 12 was green parkerized. The Hi-Powers were all T-Series, beautiful guns indeed, as were the little Browning .25's and the Chief Specials. The Brownings and Chief Specials all had serial numbers, as did the Model 12. Don't remember about the K and the Uzi, but there was a certainly a record who had what gun.

RKO

Originally posted by m-1911:
When I was in Vietnam, 68-69 I saw several of the "sterile" Swedish K's. I wanted one of them in the worst way, but never got one. I had my own Thompson that I bought off of a SF guy going on R&R. The Swedish K's were mostly used by, what we all thought were CIA para military. Many just wore civies. They all were a light green color as I remember.
 
Linda

A gun without a serial number raises the question: How did it get that way ? There are
at least two answers. One is that someone removed the serial number. Another is that it
was legally made that way. The problem is that, without some additional information, above and
beyond and away from the gun itself, the question can not be answererd.

Let me give you another example. One of my McGivern guns letters as being open on the records.
Supporting documentation makes it clear that this was a McGiven gun. Its a 2 7/8" .38 M&P
target, round butt, about 1935 or so by the serial number. The serial number is right smack
in the middle of a block of K-22 first model guns. Ie, about 20 or 25 K-22's on either side
of it, in the shipping records. This is the only serial number, in that block, that is open.

The cylinder and barrel and target sight leaf are not numbered at all. And, the round-butt
grips do not fit right - they overhang the bottom of the butt by 1/16 to 1/8". I've tried
several other pairs of round-butt grips - they all fit the same - much to long. Yet, the stamping
of the serial number looks just like all the other guns that I have, of that era.

I don't know what is going on here - I'm missing the crucial piece of information that is
need to explain this. If I had to guess, I would say that the original serial number was
milled off, and then the butt restamped with this K-22 serial number. That would explain why
the grips don't fit right, but always overhang. But - I don't know this, and I will probably
never know exactly what is going on. And , if this is what happened, I can't imagine why -
unless McGivern sent a gun back to the factory, and in the process of repairing it, had to
replace the frame, and elected to give it this unassigned serial number. I'm missing the
documentation to explain what happened.

As to your other question regarding revolvers, I have no information about that.

Regards, Mike Priwer
 

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