How about some pictures of pre-war "belly guns?" Cut down, cut away, big-bore snubbies...call them what you will but I'd like to see them. Here's one that's not mine but someday...

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

I remember, all those years ago. Dean Grennell said a few crafty dabs of a ball peen hammer removed the crude half-moon sight. I believe it has been 35 years since I saw that in print. Just goes to show how much of an impression that old Colt made on me. I have seen it many times on this site, and never tire of it. THANX.......................

__________________
dd884
JMHO-YMMV

Here's a couple scans from a book in my collection. The book is copyrighted 1929 and dated on the inside cover 1931.

Attached Images

	Fitz.jpg (76.6 KB, 336 views)
	Fitz2.jpg (128.2 KB, 373 views)

I'm glad to see this thread resurrected, too.

I have a refinished but mechanically perfect Smith 1917 that would be a fine candidate for rebirth as a belly gun.

Can anyone recommend a gunsmith who could do a good job of shortening and bobbing and round butting?

__________________
“What you got, ain’t new.”

Okay...I know, it's not a "Big Bore", but it is .38 S&W, and, that ought to be enough to get to hang with the Big Boys now and then.

sig, sent you a PM.

Dave

__________________
RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

This is a bit of an old school bellygun, but a bellygun none the less.

CVA .45 Derringer



This is a bellygun for those of us with the bigger bellys.

__________________
Vaya con Dios

Title/author please?

Thanks,
Kevin Williams

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

A cut down Victory.

The book is American Pistol Shooting by Major William D. Frazer.

I just happened upon this page from a 1940 Popular Science mag article about police training. Thought it would fit in with this topic. The link is included. Google has apparently digitized decades of this magazine.

Popular Science - Google Books

come on man.....though its not sturdy enough for casual shooting (50 rounds per month~) and its "only" a 5 shooter, the Charter Arms bulldog .44spl is the only current production stock gun has to fit in this section somewhere......as in big bore compact snubbies...

btw, the CA bulldog is an idea i love but cant find one that works well....

__________________
I'm only allowed 30 characters

I am with you for the .44 - here is a pawn shop reject I am trying to save

God that one needs help.....

__________________
I'm only allowed 30 characters

Unfortunately I have nothing to add, but I'm hoping members here might have acquired some new belly guns?

Anyone....?

Alas, all I have are new bellyguns.
640 Twins

36-1 3"

66-2 2.5" sitting with one of the twins.

624 3"

I do have a couple of Semiauto belly guns.

Me too! Love the ones with the lanyard swivel still attached. At one point I bought a Brazilian M1937 to have converted but after cycling through 2-3 gunsmiths I could not find one who would a.) do the work or b.) do it in a time frame that was reasonable. I realize that the best guys stay busy but I have not had good luck with smiths. Therefore my hunt continues for one already converted.

Regards,
Kevin Williams

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

whitecoyote thats one all business piece of hardware.

Here's some: From the bottom, clockwise; 44-40, 41 Long, 38 S&W, 32-20



rayb

"I'm no photographer"

__________________
"cumplo pero no obedezco"

Awesome belly guns guys!

LOBO, who installed, and for how much, that Big Dot Night Sight?

__________________
I'm only allowed 30 characters

Here's a couple I often carry. 1957 Mod 38 and 1955 Agent

Forget this .41 LC Army Special sans front sight and cut down ejector rod.

__________________
OGCA Member.

I got this Pre Victory from a friend who needed some money. I would have just gave him the money but he would not allow but said he would sell me this gun he had so I said yes sight unseen he just said it was an old Smith it has been converted to 38 spl barrel cut and refinished now I think I know what I will do with it.

Here is one of my favorite "Belly Guns". A S&W 1917 D.A. Army (Fitz Special).
It was a wreck when I purchased it. The S&W was rebuilt by Dave Sams, and refinished by Mag-Na-Port.

__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I installed it myself. It's a straight forward process that is easily accomplished with the correct tools. The sight comes with instructions that are easy to follow. I ordered the sight from Brownells.

I have seen other Colt Agents here so thought mine appropriate.
Got it with ugly rubber grips and made the Rosewood grips and one of a kind T grip. Holster is also my own design.
10/22.

Attached Images

	Image005 (4).jpg (96.9 KB, 246 views)
	Image009 (3).jpg (94.3 KB, 352 views)

Haha!
I haven't picked it up yet. I'm not.sure I have the cash of yet. The shop owners a friend of mine, he ran the serial but doesn't know if its a true fitz. He says its a pre war gun, but the hammer is still as it was from the factory. I dont want to post the price set, but wanted to know what a going price would be. If I dont buy it, i want to help him find someone who will appreciate it for what it is. Thanks guys.

Oh, if you can't see the serial is 405389.

Hi thedeej,


The Revolver in question is an early 1932 Colt Detective Special...

If there is a "Verified Proof'' stamp on the area where the reat top of the Trigger Bow meets the Frame, then it may indeed be a Factory Cut-away.

This stamping normally went on thew front Trigger top meets frame area, and, Factory Cut-Aways tended to have them placed at the rear, since there was no longer a 'front' area for them to go.


If you get it, you might do well to send off to Colt for having it Lettered...to see if it indeed shipped this way.

If you do not decide to get it, I would be interested in it...if you would not mind letting me know?

I have been wanting a Cut-Away 1930s Detective Special and I have not had the Heart to cut up one!

You are looking at a Colt Detective Special, or possibly a

factory 2" Police Positive, but also could be a shortened

Police Positive. Dates to 32-33.

A factory Fitz would have a bobbed hammer.

Condition is fair. Check function and lock-up.

If you can get a clear picture of the barrel markings it will
be much easier to determine what it is. Or write them down.

My guess is a cut down police positive.

If it is and function is good, I would call it a $300 shooter,max.

__________________
I Love This Site

Thanks Gaucho1.
I'll get another look in the morning, gotta pay on a smith i have in lay-away. 3 is a good bit less than they have on it, & its been sitting in the case since I first went up there a couple years ago. I'll post more tomorrow...

The Text stampings on the Barrel appear to me to be those of an early 1930s Colt Detective Special.

This would say Detective Special 38 Special on the left side, and, have a 1926 Patent date with some Colt Address info on the right side.

There would be no lettering on the top of the Barrel in this instance.

These texts would not be found if this were a Police Positive Special which had been shortened.

Colt would do a 'Cut-Away' Trigger Bow on request, whether or not it was actually done by Mr. Fitzgerald himself...as well as that Mr. Fitzgerald himself, would do a Cut-away, with or without a Bobbed Hammer, or do a Bobbed Hammer, with or wiothout a Cut-Away Trigger Bow, according to the Customer's wishes.

In theory, when Colt did the Cut-Away Trigger Bow front, they stamped their "VP" Mark on the rear top of the Trigger Bow where it meets the frame, instead of Stamping it in their usual place on the front top of the Trigger Bow ( which front top area of the Trigger Bow of course is absent on the Cut-Away version ).

"VP" will be found on the left side front top of the Trigger Bow, of regular Colt Revolvers and Automatics after about 1905.


Cut-Aways were usually a consideration for Winter Gloves or Motorcycle Gloves, when the Revolver was to be carried in a Holster, whether IWB or Shoulder or whatever.

Some people liked them even if not anticipating Gloves, since they felt it allowed a little faster readyness.

Bobbed Hammer was for 'Pocket' Carry, though some IWB or Shoulder Holster folks also liked a Bobbed Hammer in their own right.

And, a lot of boys and girls used to do their own also, or, they would have their local Gunsmith do it, so there are always old "period" versions of Cut-aways with or without Bobbed Hammers, or Bobbed Hammers, with or without Cut-Aways, which were not done by Colt.

Oyeboteb is right on the mark.

As far as a factory "Fitz", as far as I am aware both the trigger
guard and hammer would be cut.

Also, Colt would do what the customer wanted, so the guard may or may not be factory.

Some would have a correct DS barrel added later, either by
gunsmith or factory. With the consistent finish wear, it is
very difficult to tell.

A cut barrel will sometimes show little or odd crown.

Also, even a very well done front site installation will usually
have evidence of not being original.

Upon the knowledgeable comments I can see no reason this
could not be a RB modified DS.

I got tangled thinking about square butt DSs from the same period.

Good luck and let us know how it works out.

__________________
I Love This Site

Good reminders goucho1,

Indeed, as the Police Positive Special, and, the Detective Special, were in the same Serial Numbering...it is not possible to tell at a glance, if one is seeing a Police Positive Special, which was later re-Barrelled with a Detective Special Barrel of the same period as it's Frame...or, if one is looking at a normal and intact Detective Special.

No doubt this re-Barreling was done at times, and can be done today also, using old orphan DS Barrels elected to match the time poeriod of the PPS Frame.

A Colt 'Letter' would likely solve that question of course.

I myself do not know what a factory Cut-Away would be expected to bring on say Gunbroker, if this Revolver 'lettered' as having left the Colt Factory this way.

As you correctly point out, this is possibly not the same as, nor should be spoken of as, being a 'Fitz Special', since that phrase usually has come to denote a Bobbed Hammer and also a Cut-Away Trigger Bow which can actuall ybe attributed, one way or another, to the actual Hand of Mr. Fitzgerald.

But all this is a little vague or imperfect, since at least my understanding is, that such mods were done by Colts without Mr. Fitzgerald having touched them, as well as that Mr. Fitzgerald himself at times only did the Cut-Away and left the Hammer be as-is, or did a 'Hammer Bob' and left the Trigger Bow intact, and did either to Revolvers sent in for it which had already been in use a while and hence would never 'Letter' as having shipped that way, so...I guess we live with these vagueries of what to call these old variations for now, and even how to decide if a candidate is a Colt modification or a Modification done by someone else.

If it has the "VP" where it belongs to be a Colt Factory item, probably we would be alright to call it a "Fitz Special", if it in fact 'Letters' as having shipped that way, when it falls within the period when Mr. Fitzgerald was known to have been active at Colt...or if there is a chain of provenance which specificially mentions the modification or term, in cases where a Revolver was sent in for the mods, rather than having been ordered that way.

Where, Revolvers sent in for the modification some time after they had been bought and carried a while, to have the modifications done by Colt or done by Mr. Fitzgerald, would never 'letter' as having shipped that way...and might not have gotten a little 'Star' stamped on to them either, so, it is all a little messy! And, those s-h-o-u-l-d have the "VP' at the rear, but they may not.




So I am out of my depth on the aspect of proposing an evaluation for Value, as for whether on a gamble it would be a good investment or not at whatever the present Seller's price is.


I myself like old 'period' Cut Downs and Modifieds, whether done privately or by Colt's...so I would be happy, regardless.

I made a tribute to 'Fitz' out of a 1960s S&W Model 36 many years ago for Pocket Carry when I was riding my Motocycle a lot.

Does not work as well of course with the '5 Screw' era S&Ws...

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

Ok. For some reason, Photobucket really degrades my pic quality. But...
The right side above the rear of trigger guard there is a fancy engraved. Looked like a vr to me. The left side above the rear of the trigger guard is a 3. It is a detective special and looks to be the original length of the barrel. Kinda cool little gun. The lock up is good. The guy told me, an older lady brought it in.

I looked it up too, I could see it after seeing this...
http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor...1/colt17-1.jpg
It looks like NO triangle, but its a gun made in 1932-33, right? Thanks.

1915 Colt Police Positive Special.

Before:



After cutting the barrel to 1 1/4" and spending hours polishing then nickel plating:





Here's a couple with black grips installed. These are vintage gun grips repros but I think they look great on the nickel.

Now that's without a doubt a belly gun!

__________________
C & L

Looks like a DS with a modified trigger guard.

Go to gunbroker and search Detective Special. You can go to advanced search and see what the market did in the last 90 days.

That will give you a feel for the market and you can compare value.

Unless you are able to verify factory modification, I still
see this gun as a fair condition shooter, assuming lockup and function are in good shape.

Proof house confirms dating based on serial number.

Hope this is helpful and best of luck whatever your decision.

__________________
I Love This Site

Thanks gaucho.
Looks like a lot of fish without many bites. For the price I can get it, I would not make a profit, much less getting it lettered, heck, I would be in the black.
Thanks guys for all the feedback. I'm sorry to high jack the thread.
It's wild you join a site dedicated to singular brand only to ask about another (pretty bold for only 11 posts) brand all together. Thanks again.

Bet you get some muzzle flash from that flingot!

Too bad the original gun had to die to make this one, but man it's a sweet piece. Any accuracy and chrony tests? I mean even with the short sight radius....oh wait....

That is one sweet revolver twaits!

__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I actually had a hard time cutting it up at first but I'm glad I did now. There are hundreds of thousands of Police Positive Specials around and they don't have much collector value unless they are in really high condition. This one I bought from gunbroker for $175

First one is .45ACP the other .45 Colt

I need to get my bellygun up on the board. (not a big bore) But I have a question about midgetizing my '37 Brazillian. Would a board member wish to PM me to talk at length about making it into a bellygun? TIA Packy

I love this thread, it's like opening a present every time it pops up 'cause you never know what you'll find inside!

I've posted this gun in another thread or two but it deserves to be in this one as well. It's a Mag-na-port custom "Backpacker", number 128 of 250 built from .44spl Charter Arms Bulldogs back in the late 70's. They chopped and ported the barrel, shaved the front sight, bobbed the hammer, gave it a very nice action job, and then hard chromed it. They came in a Mag-na-port embossed leather gun rug with Pachmayr grips. I swapped the Pachmayrs for current production boot grips from Charter Arms.

__________________
Don't kiss smiling dogs!

Very nice WC145!

__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Very cool WC145, a true belly gun.

__________________
OGCA Member.

this is my 1978 model 19 belly gun