Looked at a .455 triplelock with British and Canadian stamps. Everything looks right except for the cylinder. Its not bored through like some I have seen, the step in the chamber is past the case of a .455 but a .45 colt round is about .200" too long. A .45 acp case will drop in about .100" too deep. It appears to be reamed for a case about 1" long. Is this normal? If not, could this be a left over .45 special cylinder from the Army trials? There are no caliber markings on the barrel, only patent dates on top. I don't have the Jinks & Neal Book so I don't know if this was one of the converted .44 series or near the end of the .455 series. SN is 4871. I'll send for a letter but that will take a while, any help sooner will be appreciated.

Thanks

__________________
PTLAPTA!

Looked at a .455 triplelock with British and Canadian stamps. Everything looks right except for the cylinder. Its not bored through like some I have seen, the step in the chamber is past the case of a .455 but a .45 colt round is about .200" too long. A .45 acp case will drop in about .100" too deep. It appears to be reamed for a case about 1" long. Is this normal? If not, could this be a left over .45 special cylinder from the Army trials? There are no caliber markings on the barrel, only patent dates on top. I don't have the Jinks & Neal Book so I don't know if this was one of the converted .44 series or near the end of the .455 series. SN is 4871. I'll send for a letter but that will take a while, any help sooner will be appreciated.

Thanks

__________________
PTLAPTA!

You may have to use moon clips for .45 acp.

That is a stumper. Is the cylinder face still intact, or has it been cut down, too (is the s/n still on the cylinder face or not)? Not having the caliber on the barrel is not unusual for those. I think like 6,000 of these were made, so yours would be towards the end and before the switch to the 2nd model.

I have never heard of a .45 special "army trial" - whose army and what trial, may I ask?

beanbean

Thanks for the reply, but the .455 has a very thin rim. On those modified to .45 colt the rear of the cylinder has to be machined, even more for the acp and moon clips. The exterior of my cylinder is original with SN and crossed flags. It is the chamber that I don't know about.

Thanks

__________________
PTLAPTA!

Sorry Kamerer we were typing at the same time. The U.S. Army trials were held in search of a new pistol in ~1906 IIRC and a .45 Frankfort arsenal cartridge was S&W's entry in the triplelock. Luger had a P-O8 in 45acp, Colt's 1905 in 45 acp, I think Savage and others. The 1905 evolved into the 1911.

__________________
PTLAPTA!

Non machined cylinders on .45 Colt conversions are common, at least stateside. I have one with the crossed flages and serial number intact.

As PZ93C says, not all 45 colt conversions have the face machined. Mine has been recessed at each cylinder instead. The cylinder edges at the face are rebated about .015", just enough to give the .45 LC rim the space to drop in and headspace properly.

Was this one set up that way (I gather you said you "looked" at it and don't actually own it or own it yet?). Here's a picture of that, you can see it clearly on some of the cylinders.

But the shoulder depth down the cylinder just makes no sense. That gun would have been made to late for the army trials you are talking about - I wasn't aware of any army trials in 1914/1915, the time when this was manufactured.

Have you mike the barrel bore and cylinder dimensions?

The chambers on the .455 TL were bored deep enough to take either the .455 MkII or the .455 MkI cartridge. The MkI (aka .455 Colt in Canada) was a longer round that was originally loaded with black powder. It was found when they switched to Cordite that the shorter MkII cartridge was more efficient.
Are you sure that the chamber ridges you are seeing aren't just the normal restriction?
You would need to compare it to a known unaltered TL to be sure.

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Good idea. The Mk I cartridge isn't 1" long, either - it's more .45acp length. But maybe the restrictions were for that 1" depth.

I have examined my chambers in detail in the past and have noticed there is a distinct "blue line" short of the current cylinder restriction Look at the photo above, peer down the bores and you can see a distinct, even line where the blue ends and bare metal is exposed, short of the current (.45LC) restrictions.

Just now, carefully miking those "blue lines" finds them to be pretty consistently 0.935 to 0.940". It's not terribly precise as it is difficult to manipulate the micrometer and get enough light in the bore to judge accurately, but I've repeated it a dozen or so times on multiple cylinders. This is the distance form the original cylinder face, not the recessed edges.

It would be logical to speculate that the original cylinder restriction depth on this gun was .940" or there abouts - temptingly close to the 1" figure the OP has cited as the depth of his cyinlder bores, and considerably more than the case length of either .455 Mk. 1 or .455 Mk 2.

For reference, my gun is a .455 Mk II 2nd Model, in the 60,xxx serial range. The barrel says ".45<STRIKE>5</STRIKE> Long Colt" on it - the second 5 is "x'ed" out. There are no British or Canadian proofs on it, other than a tiny "crown" emblem on the toe of the butt with an "11" underneath it.

I have been meaning to but haven't got it lettered. My assumption is that it was either a 1) "carry home" gun - e.g., wasn't turned in after service (because of the near absence of proofs, which I am told were done on re-export), and VERY professionally converted later (seems unlikely), or 2) a gun that never left Canada in the first place, and was arsenal converted for domestic use until "liberated" from government service.

Back to the point at hand, based on my measurements, it sounds like the cylinder of the OP's gun may be unmodified and it's possibly a genuine unmodified .455 Mk II 1st Model.

I think I can explain your .935-.940 measurement. I seemed to remember something I had run across years ago when I was collecting chamberings.
The Brits had a total of 9 different “military” .45 handgun cartridges starting in 1868 with the .450 Adams and ending in 1939 with the .455 Webley Cordite Mark VI. I can’t find the document right now, but I remember reading that all of these cartridges could be fired in any of the Webleys (with backward compatibility.) In other words, any given Mark of Webley could fire any cartridge that preceded its introduction. The only caution was that, even though it would fit, it wouldn’t be prudent to fire a 1939 Cordite MkVI in an old black powder MkI.
Now several of the older BP cartridges had a .86 - .87 “ case length. In addition at least one appears to have a heel seated bullet so the chamber would need even a little more length to accommodate this.
If I can find my chamber cast metal I will try to take a cast of my unaltered .455 1st and get some accurate measurements.
I agree that it sounds that he may have a standard .455 chamber that hasn’t been altered.

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

The well-done conversions to .45LC did not have machined cylinder-faces, only recessed (rebated) charge-holes.
Unfortunately, research on the 1st and 2nd-Model conversions will verify that virtually anybody with a set of gunsmithing tools could (and did) make the alterations.
Don

__________________
OGCA Life
NRA Life

I think deadin hit the cartridge on the head. The cylinder is unaltered, I didn't understand the excess chamber space, too short for 45 colt, too long for 45acp, and long for the .455mkII, but maybe just right for the others! Thanks all for the replies.

__________________
PTLAPTA!

I’ve done a little further research and your serial #4871 is not one of the converted .44 Spl’s (per Neal & Jinks)
So I would imagine that when you get your letter it will show the gun as being shipped to Remington UMC who was the purchasing agent for the British government.

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I don't like the idea of converting a good revolver.....just load .455's!

.455 Colt brass made from .45 Colt brass:

Now you all have me curious. I have a 2nd model that will chamber and fire a 45 Colt, but the charge holes aren't rebated, nor has the cylinder face been machined. The serial # on the frame and cylinder match. The barrel reads 455 and has been cut to approx 4". What do I have?

The only other conversion I have seen is to relieve the standing breech a little, but that's a lot of work.
How much end play does your gun have?

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

1) To get a .45LC in the chamber, it would have to be lengthened - are the insides of your cylinders uniformly blue, or show bare areas of machining near the barrel ends (this can be hard to see)?

2) Does it headspace properly? The s/n is still on the cylinder face?

There were some that the SCSW reports were made in .45LC, but what these look like, I don't know - haven't seen one that lettered as such - don't know if they rebated the cylinder faces, modified existing .455 cylinders, or what. For the number cited, 700 or something if I recall correctly, they probably did it well and had it headspacing properly without rebating/recessing and only the pawls would be bare steel, no spots in the cylinder.

If that all mated up, then I'd be curious to letter it and see if it is one of those 2nd Model .45LC Canadian guns.

Did the factory made ones still have the ".455" on the barrel?

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I personally have no clue. I've been really curious about this and would love to know. I love this gun in .45LC and have wanted to someday find a "REAL" factory one from that 700 or whatever run.

Kamerer,
If you're going to Gig Harbor tomorrow bring it along. I'd like to see it.

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I have not seen one of the "700" but I'll venture a guess. I have a Commercial 1917 that according to the letter was shipped in the early 1920s a few months later it was sent back to Smith & Wesson where it was rebarreled with a 6 1/2" .455 type barrel with the 1906 patent date. The gun was also converted to .45 Colt at the same time and then sent back to the owner.

The barrel is serial numbered to the 1917 with the addition of a small square stamped on the barrel flat; which according to the letter from Roy Jinks indicates a rebarrel. There is no caliber marking or stamp of any kind on the barrel. So, I wouldn't be surprised they are stamped correctly .45 Colt or not at all.

The head space is correct and cylinder is serial numbered to the revolver. The ejector is flat. The chambers show no break in the bluing.

Here is a photo of my old 1917. Sorry it doesn't show thing better.



Bill

__________________
Bill Bates

It occurred to me I had they images somewhere on a cd that I sent to Smith & Wesson when I got it lettered. I uploaded them. It ain't pretty but it is interesting. They are is composites of a number of images.




Bill

__________________
Bill Bates

I believe the chambers on my revolver have been lengthened. I was wondering how the cartridge rims have room, because it was stated earlier in this thread that the 45 Colt rim was thicker than the 455. I suppose the breech face could have been relieved, but that would seem like quit a chore, and if it has been done, it was done in a professional manner. Yes, the serial # is still crisp on the face of the cylinder. There is a bit of end play, but not more than normal for a well used handgun of this age. Whatever happened, it is a cool shooter and I bought it for a song. Thanks for the help.

Bill,
That is a very interesting gun. PLEASE elaborate- how did you get Roy to confirm the Service Dept work?? I have never been able to get any confirmed, and I have always heard that it was impossible to get such confirmation without the NAME of the person sending the gun in, and, I believe, the date.
Tell us more, please.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

The revolver went to an individual in Grants Pass, Oregon and then went, pretty much right, back to Smith & Wesson. The name is known and the rework date and was not far off from the shipping date. I have no idea if it is the name or the date that is important.

Other than a phone call to Mr. Jinks wondering where the heck the letter was 5 months after my money, photos and the form were sent in we never talked. I asked for no favors and expected none.

I was impressed with the customer service person at Smith & Wesson. When I called to ask about my letter they gave me Mr. Jinks home number to call. He was very nice, all apologies about being behind and seemed to not feel bothered by the phone call.

Bill

__________________
Bill Bates

Did Roy actually letter that it had been converted to 45 LC or did he just say that the barrel had been replaced?

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Been a few years so I pulled the letter. Nice two pages with one page of fluff about the 1917. Letter gives ship date, who and where and the return for work where it was rebarreled. It doesn't state specifically state it was converted to .45 Colt but does confirm the rebarrel. When Roy and I talked I know we discussed the chambering, what looked to have been done along with the how and why. We also discussed the grips but they aren’t mentioned in the letter but they are numbered to the gun. Sorry for any confusion my old and sometimes foggy brain may cause.

Anyway for the $225 I paid for the gun three years ago and the fun I have had with it along with the trying to figure it out… not like it matched any description I could find… I’m happy.

Back to the original thought. The barrel isn’t marked with any caliber or bore diameter. The .455 Mk IIs I have seen all have been marked .455 but it appears they were marked when proofing and not by the factory.

Bill

__________________
Bill Bates

Interesting! The cylinder conversion on a 1917 would consist of getting rid of the step in the chamber. No need to face off the cylinder or standing breech as the 45 AR (or 45 ACP with half moons) is thicker than the 45LC to begin with. In fact it may be necessary to move the cylinder back a little so there isn't excessive headspace. (Have you ever tried a 45AR or ACP in clips in it?)

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I tried .45 ACP with moon clips. You might get the cylinder to close with some force but no way it would rotate. I haven't tried auto rims.

I got this gun at work. I'm the internet photographer at the Lehi Utah Cabelas. When the gun came in a few years ago I was the guy working. It had me confused. I had what looked like a put together gun or a lunch box special. First look it was a .455 MK II except the monogram is wrong and no proof marks. All the number match and the monogram says maybe a 1917 commercial. the grips are checkered diamonds not smooth. No sharp step in the chamber like the .45 ACP 1917. I grabed a spare moon clip out of the back and a shell and she really doesn't want to close. Chamber depth looks .45 Colt and they fit. I offered the guy $175 figuring somebody put it together. He said yes and I bought the gun for the company and then from the company. I like .45 Colt it was cheap so no downside.

I really wanted to know just what the heck it was and $30 bucks seemed cheap to find out so I sent off for a letter.

Ok I'm use to Cody. I can call and have a fax in a few hours with all the particulars on a Winchester. If they match then I order a letter and have it back in days. Colt takes for ever. After 5 months I called to see what the normal wait was for letters from Smith and they give me Roy Jinks home phone number. I was surprised. Roy was very friendly and we chatted for a half hour or more. He was helpful and a wealth of knowledge and informaation.

I love the old gun. It shoots pretty well. To bad about the finish in spots. It almost looks like someone with a bloody hand didn't wipe it off and the blood took the bluing right off around the grip and on the frame.

I guess that is enough of a ramble for tonight.

__________________
Bill Bates

Wow, Bill, thanks for the story. A hybrid 1917/455.

I, and a few others, find these .455 HE's really fascinating. There are so many reasons to endear them - the first series being triple locks, but also

2)the small total production of both models
3) the "big bore" N frame aspect of these very early models
4) the purely martial purpose of them, yet the phenomenal internal and external fitting and finish
5) the scarcity - for victory models, over a million were made, many returned - for these, 70,000 made and many fewer returned
6) the dearth of documentation

I know people chase victory's and 1917s, but for history and rarity, these are just so much more fascinating. Thanks for sharing a really interesting story. That must be one very fun gun for kinda "stumbling" across it.

Bill,
THANKS. A very interesting gun.
I think they probably replaced the cyl also, with a new cyl which is slightly longer than a 1917 cyl, and numbered it to the gun like the barrel was numbered to the gun. The 1917 cyl is very close to being too short for the 45 Colt. The gap at the rear looks normal for a 45 Colt also, indicating a longer cyl because the gap at front does not look lrger than the normal gap for a 1917. This also required altering or replacing the frame lug, so I suspect the whole gun was blued at this time. The new cyl may be built from a 455 cyl, or it could have been built from scratch.

There seems to be no rhyme or reason to 455 caliber marks- I have seen Triple Locks with marked barrels, and I have seen late 2nd Mods that are not marked! Marked and UNmarked barrels are interspersed all through the production. I have never seen one marked at time of proof- they have all had normal factory marks UNDER the blue, or had no cal mark at all.

THANKS again for elaborating. INTERESTING gun!

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Upon further inspection, it appears that the breech face of my 2nd model HAS been relieved. Thanks. You learn something everyday.

Deadin' -

I regret, very, very much that I could not go to Gig Harbor today. That would have been so much fun. I was in Ocean Shores in January, and if we head back down that way this summer I'll let you know. The way my breech was relieved, with the individual cylinder hole rebating/recessing, is pictured on the 1st page of this thread. I'm pretty sure it's a later conversion, not a factory one (dang, I keep meaning to letter it; guess I will this month). But it's a dang NICE conversion, really professionally done, that would be worthy of factory quality work.

Hey guys I am new to the forum and try to read up on the .455 so if some of my questions are too "basic" I appologize in advance.

I am helping a friend deal with the firearms with an estate. He is a "no guns" guy and has asked me to handle the sale of the guns from the estate. At this point I am in the exploratory mode, trying to determine the value of what he has. One of the S&W pistols is a .455 Mark II (based on the discription I read in the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson) and I think from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Serial number is 68XXX and there is what looks to be a crown on the butt with the number 30. Here are some other markings on it: crossed flags just behind the barrel pun; a capital "C" with what looks like a mountain peak stamped into the left side of the frame just behind and above the trigger; on the frame at the top of the butt are the initials "C.A.F.V.S." with the number 4 below them; and the cylinder is stamped between every shell opening with crossed flags and what looks like a reversed "C" at 9:00, "C" at 3:00 and "P" at 6:00.

I know it is chambered for the .455 as I unloaded it and also have a partial box of shells for it.

Here is a picture of the pistol:



Can anyone tell me what all these markings mean and an idea of the guns value?

__________________
Richard

Welcome to the Forum.

The grips have been replaced and it has possibly been reblued.

Not sure on the marking, possibly Canadian Armed Forces.

I'd put the value at around $500.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

"Welcome to the Forum.

The grips have been replaced and it has possibly been reblued.

Not sure on the marking, possibly Canadian Armed Forces.

I'd put the value at around $500.

Muley Gil
John 3:16
NRA Benefactor, former USMC, WAR EAGLE!! SWCA # 1891"

Thanks for the information Muley. I am still researching the other markings but it's looking more and more like this was/is a Canadian piece, possibly Royal Mounted Police.

Oh, and War D@%& Eagle!

__________________
Richard

Grantshire,,The 'C' with the 'peak' inside of it is the Canadian Armed Forces property marking. The peak being the 'broadarrow' marking of UK/Commonwealth nations arms & equiptment and the 'C' of course for Canadian ownership.

The crossed flags (pennants) markings are proof marks from the UK. You might find those on the frame also. Any marks that are a 'crown' over a letter are inspectors markings.

The CAFVS marking could be the 'Canadian Armoured Fighting Vehicles School'. One was in Windsor, Ontario,Canada.
I don't know if they had more than one such school or if that was the only CAFVS in the country.
The '4' simply a weapon or 'rack' number to keep track of the revolver.

Here's a link to a little info and a pic of some of the men in a 1938 photo.
http://wrassoc.homestead.com/purpose_photo.html

Great! Thanks for the information and you must be right about the C.A.F.V.S. markings. Now the only unidentified markings are those between the shell holes on the cylinder. Looking at them with my loop I am sure it is a backward "C" at 9:00, "C" at 3:00, and "P" at 6:00, all under the crossed flags.

And thanks for the link to the photo. I did a little searching and reading about the CAFVS; very interesting.

BTW, this is a great site and I look forward to reading more of the old posts.

Richard

__________________
Richard

The crossed flags/pennant marking with the 3 letters, one of which is a 'P', is a UK proof mark. The other two letters should denote the reigning Monarch of the UK at the time of the proof if they are the original proofs.
The 'P'(proof)is at the 6 oclock position.

GR/VR/ER, etc for King George (George Rex), Queen Victoria (Victoria Regina), King Edward.
King George V from 1910(?) to 1936
King George VI from '36 to '52.
Edward the 8th was there for the short stay in 1936 but he had a hot date.

The Canadian Long Branch arsenal was also in Ontario and actually not far from Windsor, mfg SMLE #4 rifles. Their proof mark was a crossed flags/pennant w/ 'PDC' in it at 9,12,3 oclock respectively. PDC for Proof,Dominion of Canada I believe.
A commonwealth country, but they did not place the King of England on the stamping.

The letters are so small on those proof markings that the letters get disfigured with constant use.
It's possible it's a later proof, maybe post war(?), but I really can't think of anything that the letters (C) could match up with right now. Perhaps someone else with better knowledge of the proof codes can help.
A Birmingham commercial proof for a gun 'sold from service' (surplus) in England post war would have crown over BNP markings IIRC.

I put the cylinder under a bright light and used a higher magnification loop last night and have determined that the letter at 9:00 is not a reversed "C" but is a "D". There are still two locations between the cylinders where the closed side of the "D" is still visable. The other letter are a "C" and "P" as noted earlier and this fits with your Proof, Dominion of Canada, just in a different order "Dominion of Canada Proof). This symbol is crossed flags with D (9;00), C (3:00) and P (6:00), and is stamped between every shell hole in the cylinder. Here is a picture of the markings:



And here is one showing the CAFVS:



Thanks again for all the great information.

__________________
Richard

Looks like it was rechambered to .45 Colt. .455 will still fit.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Thanks for the info and yes, it does look like the cylinder has been drilled deeper. I will go by my local gun shop today and pick up a cleaning kit for it (it has not been cleaned and oiled in years) and some .45 Colt shells (test fit first).

How did an Auburn grad end up in Southwest Virginia?

__________________
Richard

"How did an Auburn grad end up in Southwest Virginia?"

Pick-up truck!!

I'm a native Virginian and the grandson of an Alabamian. Went down home for college, stayed and worked in law enforcement for 25 years. When I retired, I came back to the Old Dominion. Always loved the mountains, so here I is.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

It looks like that cylinder was later modified outside the factory for .45 Long Colt, clearly.

The rebated cylinders (mike them, .015" deeper than the cylinder face would be correct for that) and over-bored cylinders make it look like it should be for .45LC. The bores don't look even cylinder to cylinder, and it is clearly re-blued (the blue ejector star faces are a give-away, as well as the bluing past the re-boring shoulders). The tool damage to the ejector star retainer shows the cyinder assembly has been disassembled at some point, presumably for this work.

The CAFVS is very interesting and, to my mind, valuable and interesting. Very neat.

If it's been rechambered for .45LC, then .455 is not going to reliably work as the headspacing is very different now. Tip, if you want to make the action smoother on these, put in a modern N frame mainspring - the military ones were very stiff to work with harder military primers of the time. If you want to shoot it regularly, this mod is desirable.

455 will usually still work in a cyl. rechambered in this manner as the 455 rim is wider than a spec 45Colt rim dia. counterbore. If the 45Colt rim cut is over size in dia.,,then all bets are off!

Sorry for the late response but this is all on my work PC. We live in a rural setting with only dial-up so I do my surfing from my office PC (don't worry, with the hours I put in I am not shorting the job).

Thanks for the information and you are correct on several points; it has been modified to fit .45LC, they are uneven and the action is a bit stiff. I purchased a box of .45LC's on the way home Friday and also an oversized rubber grip (big hands and I will put the S&W grips aside for right now). Checked out the fit in each chamber and found two of the chambers are not deep enough for the longer .45LC shell. Even they are not the same depth, one is shallow enough you can't close the cylinder back into the frame and the other one makes the cylinder drag when turning. I guess the good news is the .455's still fit. Saturday morning I shot it about 12 times, using .455 rounds in the two "short" chambers.

The gun shoots nice but I will do the spring mod you suggested to smoth out the action a little. Accuracy was impressive and I want to pursue "fixing" the two short chambers. Having it rechambered to the .45 is a real plus because of the availabilty of .45LC ammo and issues finding the .455 shells.

Muley Gil, This is the short version for me - native of north AL, father was a rocket scientist in Huntsville, went to AU, co-oped, married my last year in school, came to VA on my wife's job with Philip Morris after graduation, and fell in love with Virginia. That was more than 30 years ago and wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

__________________
Richard

Richard,

If you were an EE major, we may have some friends in common. Shoot me an e-mail with "S&W Forum" in the title.

[email protected]

Class of '77

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!