1905 4th change target headed my way

[LanceWhite]

I will have a 1905 4th change target coming my way soon, somewhere in the 300,000 serial number range. It has convex no-medallion grips, it's 38 special, and has no "Made in the USA" on the right side of the frame and no S&W crest or other markings on either side of the frame. I am new to the target models, the grips are 1920 or later I ascertain. Is the serial range correct for a Target model, assuming they were built and shipped later than regular models. I have read also that Target models often lack markings on the frame that conventional models have. Is this gun likely made 1920 or so?

[Mbrgr1]

302321 shipped in June 1919 and 348849 shipped in July 1920 if that helps, but I don't think target or not had anything to do with ship dates, just how bad you wanted to hit something!


Lets see some pics!


230948 shipped in 1914

[larryofcc]

I have two. One from 1924 and one from 1934. To tell you the truth, I have never fired either, but the workmanship on these is second to none. I think everyone should have at least one in their collections. Enjoy. Big Larry

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by Mbrgr1

I don't think target or not had anything to do with ship dates

Actually there are some indications that it did. Target models were in less demand and orders were therefore slower in many cases. So ship dates on target models are sometimes later than fixed sight models in the same serial range. Keep in mind there was a cost differential. Also, police agencies accounted for a significant portion of purchases and they tended to buy mostly fixed sight revolvers.

[Mbrgr1]

Originally Posted by JP@AK

Actually there are some indications that it did. Target models were in less demand and orders were therefore slower in many cases. So ship dates on target models are sometimes later than fixed sight models in the same serial range. Keep in mind there was a cost differential. Also, police agencies accounted for a significant portion of purchases and they tended to buy mostly fixed sight revolvers.

Thanks! Always learning..........


Would they make a bunch of target models and then wait for orders? or make a bunch of everything and the targets were just slower sellers.

[wheelgun610]

Originally Posted by Mbrgr1

... Would they make a bunch of target models and then wait for orders? or make a bunch of everything and the targets were just slower sellers.

They most likely built some target models from scratch, but... On pre WWII guns, they could easily convert any fixed sighted M&P to a target model by simply milling off the front sight blade, then milling a notch in the base and drilling a hole for a pin to retain the new sight blade. All barrels at that time were actually forged with the fixed sight blade, so the blade always had to be milled off to build a target sighted gun. It was (and still is) also a simple procedure to mill a groove in the top strap of the frame to accomodate an adjustable target sight.

Mark

[LanceWhite]

Here are a few pics, I have it in hand. It has holster wear (it appears) on the barrel and finish loss on the frame. Action is butter smooth and the trigger pull is definitely lighter than a standard M&P. Looks like it was carried and used some.

[rct269]

Yeah, but----------------------------------------------

The target guns got special treatment (starting I don't know when, and stopping I don't know when), but there was a whole lot more to it than swapping sights----------

This from the 1925 catalog (following a bit where they're doing their damnedest to convince the reader fixed sight guns are just as good as target guns---which are merely-------------------different: "For these reasons a special type of trigger pull is desirable-----not by any means simply a very light pull, but one having the peculiar quality termed "short and crisp" by shooters. This not only requires a special type of notch and trigger point, but requires a different adjustment of the working parts of the action."

As an aside, the single action trigger pull of the time was 3-4 lbs. for target, 5-7 lbs. for fixed sight. In the for what it's worth category, I had 14 M&P Targets in my collection of target guns ranging in age from those shipped in 1910 to those shipped in 1936 (just because I had the hots for M&P targets). The single action trigger pull was 3.5 lbs. right down the line.

Now, during the time of the top-breaks, it was commonplace to create a target model simply by swapping out the sights.

Ralph Tremaine

[larryofcc]

Check out the front sight. Appears to be a special order thin round top. I have one of those on my 1920's 44 HE 2nd model target. Big Larry

[hsguy]

1905 Targets are some of the finest revolvers ever made in my opinion. I have always enjoyed shooting mine and marvel at their workmanship.

[Rodan]

Mine is 330,0xx, and shipped in February 1920. Frame is clean on the right side, no "Made in USA" stamp. Mine has what I believe to be an aftermarket front sight. No mention of it in the letter.

[rct269]

Originally Posted by larryofcc

Check out the front sight. Appears to be a special order thin round top. I have one of those on my 1920's 44 HE 2nd model target. Big Larry

The Thin Round Top Blade was standard on hand ejectors from 1905 to 1923----and available on order up to 1942.

Ralph Tremaine

[larryofcc]

Not much help but my # 477937 Target, was shipped 5-1924. All standard with the patridge front sight. Non medallion stocks numbered to the gun in pencil. Big Larry

[glowe]

I have not seen a white plastic bead on any K frame target made in the 1920s, plus that sight does not appear to be S&W. The stocks on Rodan's gun are from the 1930s so not original either.

[LanceWhite]

Serial number is 302377, the grips are not numbered but a perfect fit. Wonder if the grips are original to the gun or not?

[wheelgun610]

Originally Posted by LanceWhite

Serial number is 302377, the grips are not numbered but a perfect fit. Wonder if the grips are original to the gun or not?

Hundred year old pencilled serial numbers on grips can be nearly impossible to see. Sometimes you can detect faint numbers with different lighting angles, and sometimes they show up better in a photo than with the naked eye.

If both panels fit the frame perfectly, it would be easy to think they're the ones that left Springfield attached to that gun. If you're not sure what to look for as far as how they fit, show us pics that show the fit on all sides of the grip frame. There are plenty of us here who can usually tell at a glance whether a set of grips was fitted to the gun they're on.

Mark

[larryofcc]

Originally Posted by wheelgun610

Hundred year old pencilled serial numbers on grips can be nearly impossible to see. Sometimes you can detect faint numbers with different lighting angles, and sometimes they show up better in a photo than with the naked eye.

If both panels fit the frame perfectly, it would be easy to think they're the ones that left Springfield attached to that gun. If you're not sure what to look for as far as how they fit, show us pics that show the fit on all sides of the grip frame. There are plenty of us here who can usually tell at a glance whether a set of grips was fitted to the gun they're on.

Mark

This is so true. I bought a near to mint 20's Reg. Police, and pulled the stocks. No number. My friend took it home and deep cleaned and Ren Waxed it. Got a call a little later. Good news. I went over the stock with a good glass and found the number. I guess the penciled number just fell off after 100 years. Don't have that problem with stamped numbers. Big Larry

[LanceWhite]

Originally Posted by wheelgun610

If both panels fit the frame perfectly, it would be easy to think they're the ones that left Springfield attached to that gun. If you're not sure what to look for as far as how they fit, show us pics that show the fit on all sides of the grip frame. There are plenty of us here who can usually tell at a glance whether a set of grips was fitted to the gun they're on.

Mark

Looking at blown up pictures, the front doesn't fit perfect.

[delta-419]

Looking at all of the fine old 38 target S&Ws reminded me that I had one buried somewhere in the far reaches of my safe. I never got around to lettering it, those many years ago when I paid less than $250 for it at a local AL gun show. I had seen it at the show several times over the months and nobody wanted the old brown gun from the 1920s. She shoots like a true S&W with a very smooth action with all matching numbers. Why a birthday gun, you ask, because the engraved number on the side of the frame is my birthday only with year, month, and day reversed. I never figured out what
A.P. CO. means. Serial number 445014 if you are like me and have difficulty with the photo of same. She has been carried a lot over the years with holster wear at the muzzle. These target guns are great if you can find one, in any shape, true quality!

[larryofcc]

Originally Posted by delta-419

Looking at all of the fine old 38 target S&Ws reminded me that I had one buried somewhere in the far reaches of my safe. I never got around to lettering it, those many years ago when I paid less than $250 for it at a local AL gun show. I had seen it at the show several times over the months and nobody wanted the old brown gun from the 1920s. She shoots like a true S&W with a very smooth action with all matching numbers. Why a birthday gun, you ask, because the engraved number on the side of the frame is my birthday only with year, month, and day reversed. I never figured out what
A.P. CO. means. Serial number 445014 if you are like me and have difficulty with the photo of same. She has been carried a lot over the years with holster wear at the muzzle. These target guns are great if you can find one, in any shape, true quality!

Man, if that gun could only talk. You need a letter. I have a 4 digit K22 shipped on my 5th birthday. Big Larry

[Truckman]

Texas Jake will be along soon to rub it in my face that he smooth-talked me out of my only .38 M&P target...I'll find another one though......Ben

[Wiregrassguy]

I never figured out what
A.P. CO. means.

I believe that is Alabama Power Company, Jim. I'd letter that one. It likely shipped directly to APCO in Bham. As a former APCO employee, I'd be interested in seeing that gun in person. Maybe the next Dothan show?

[glowe]

God knows that any power company employee running around Alabama in the 1920s would have needed to be armed when telling people their land was condemned for a dam reservoir.

[Wiregrassguy]

Originally Posted by glowe

God knows that any power company employee running around Alabama in the 1920s would have needed to be armed when telling people their land was condemned for a dam reservoir.

Not wanting to hijack this thread, but the letter and APCO archives could turn up some interesting stuff. In addition to in-field exploration and development, Alabama ran a Convict-Lease system to raise revenue in that era. Could have been used in that regard.