Image - Victory on 'da Job ca. 1951

[RM Vivas]

Came across this image in the online NYC Archives.

I had always thought that guys would replace their wartime guns with nicely finished commercial ones once the post-war civilian assembly lines started up.

Apparently not. While the citizen in the image is having a bad day, the crouching cop on the left has an unmistakable S&W Victory.

Note plain grips and lanyard loop.
Looks like he ruined the shine on his right shoe tip as well.







NYC Archive
COLLECTION NAME: BPB: Borough President Brooklyn
Record Identifier: bpb_ii_0672
Title: Shoot-out
Subject: Government Departments: Police
Description:
"Shoot-out, printed & put up": Plainclothes and uniformed police examine shooting victim on Brooklyn sidewalk before a crowd of onlookers.
Date: 1951
Decade: 1950-1959
Type: Still Image
Format: 4 x 5 inch

[digi-shots]

Interesting photo… makes me wonder if it was Defense Supply issued Victory.

From your database… have you found many 4” Victory’s ?

Here’s a photo of some period commercial holsters… the one on the upper right looks very similar to the one in the photo.

[cmj8591]

I was issued this when I got on the job in 1981. It was quickly ditched for a model 19 that I purchased myself.

[RM Vivas]

About 900 Victory model revolvers thus far.

RMV

Originally Posted by digi-shots

Interesting photo… makes me wonder if it was Defense Supply issued Victory.

From your database… have you found many 4” Victory’s ?

Here’s a photo of some period commercial holsters… the one on the upper right looks very similar to the one in the photo.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by digi-shots

Interesting photo… makes me wonder if it was Defense Supply issued Victory.

Yes. Remember that the DSC didn‘t issue any revolvers, they sold them. Before and after the DSC Revolver Program period, NYCPD officers bought from one of the police suppliers or the department. During the war, the commercial suppliers didn‘t have any guns to sell, so new officers had to get guns which the department, as an authorized recipient, had purchased from the DSC, limited to 4“ Victorys and Commandos.

[RM Vivas]

Originally Posted by Absalom

Yes. Remember that the DSC didn‘t issue any revolvers, they sold them. Before and after the DSC Revolver Program period, NYCPD officers bought from one of the police suppliers or the department. During the war, the commercial suppliers didn‘t have any guns to sell, so new officers had to get guns which the department, as an authorized recipient, had purchased from the DSC, limited to 4“ Victorys and Commandos.

My observation thus far has been that during the war the supply of pre-war guns was carefully hoarded. If you were new coming on the job, you got a Victory or Commando. If you were already on the job and needed a new piece, you got a pe-war gun. Also, WW2 era Trophy Guns were drawn from the pre-war supply.

[waffles]

The above two posts are pretty interesting. Was there a perceived quality difference by those inside the department that kept those already on the job prioritized for the prewar guns?

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by waffles

The above two posts are pretty interesting. Was there a perceived quality difference by those inside the department that kept those already on the job prioritized for the prewar guns?

Obviously, the finish was MUCH better on the pre war M&Ps. Plus, the actions on some of the Victories that I have handled were a bit rougher.

[digi-shots]

Originally Posted by RM Vivas

About 900 Victory model revolvers thus far.

RMV

Thanks… I knew they NYPD had DSC Victory models but had no idea there were that many!

Did NYCPD also purchase from individual local gun dealers or only from S&W direct? I have a Terrier that was shipped to the Charles Greenblatt Co. in 1951.. I had originally hoped it would be a PD gun.

[RM Vivas]

Originally Posted by digi-shots

Thanks… I knew they NYPD had DSC Victory models but had no idea there were that many!

Did NYCPD also purchase from individual local gun dealers or only from S&W direct? I have a Terrier that was shipped to the Charles Greenblatt Co. in 1951.. I had originally hoped it would be a PD gun.

Send me the s/n on the Terrier and I'll run it against my records.

RMV

[kaaskop49]

Off topic, PD was hiring during WWII?

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

[RM Vivas]

Originally Posted by kaaskop49

Off topic, PD was hiring during WWII?

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

I see mixed info on that.

I've seen newspaper articles that tout 'the first new hires since before the war" and yet I find documents on wartime classes.

I suspect the city did not create any new hiring lists/give tests -during- the war but continued to use pre-war lists to call men up.

RMV

[cmj8591]

It's hard to tell from the photo, but I think this is the type of holster that the cop in the photo is using.



When I came on, there was a lot of guys still working who had gotten on the job after their service in WW2. This was a very popular style of holster with them. Most had 6 cartridge loops on the part that rides on the duty belt. A lot of those guys were pretty ambivalent about carrying a gun, even on duty. It wasn't uncommon for someone to get called out at roll call because they came to work without a gun. I guess if you spent your late teens storming Mt. Suribachi or Normandy Beach, having a gun while walking a beat on Main St. in Dogpatch wasn't a high priority.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by kaaskop49

Off topic, PD was hiring during WWII?

Historically, people tend overestimate the impact and numbers involved in wars. About 11% of adult Americans served in some capacity at some point in WW II. While that’s huge compared to the fractions of 1% who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, it still means that for the bulk of the people life went on.

In particular, the large cities with industries, ports, and such actually experienced population growth and would have needed more officers as workers moved in.

Since at the same time a significant number of younger officers changed uniforms and joined up, but certainly didn’t hand over their mostly privately purchased sidearms for the duration, there was a continuing need for police guns to arm the (usually older) replacement hires.

[Absalom]

On a related note, here’s Chief Kimberling of the Louisville KY police buying 400 Victorys from the DSC in June 1945. Seems to have gotten ready for a hiring boom as the war came to an end.

[RM Vivas]

The image of the cop with a Victory revolver at the beginning of this message came from the NYC Municipal Archives website.

Remarkably, they have managed to digitize a huge amount of images in pretty high resolution and put them online. The search mechanisms/fields leave a b it to be desired but....
Anyway, while searching for the Victory image I came across some images of two separate at-sea firearms destructions.
I’ve placed them here because they show a very interesting progression.
The first images are from 17OCT1940. They are interesting because they show the destruction of at least 3-5 colt ‘Potato Digger’ machine guns. They department owned at least two dozen of these and I can document their deployment up through the 1920’s. I believe the ones shown in the pictures are the Department owned one. Another thing that is quite interesting is the large number of air rifles being destroyed. There is also what appears to be a water cooled machine gun being destroyed. I suspect it is a German aircraft machine gun because there is one in the Police Museum (or at least there used to be) and I remember the paperwork saying it was one of two recovered.

Bundles of guns being prepared to be tossed into the deep. Note 3rd man from left.
Image name: nypd-d-0447a
.

Close-up of 3rd man from left with what appears to be a stripped Colt Potato Digger.
Image name: nypd-d-0447a
.

This fellow seems to know what he has and is LIKING IT!.
. Image name: nypd-d-0447d
.


Go to the website for Municipal Archives and check out the full size hi-res image and play “how many guns can you name” from this pile.
Image name: nypd_d_0447a
Image name: nypd_d_0447f
.
.
.
These images below are from 1949 and you can see that WW2 is –WELL- represented!
.
.

Examine the hi-res image and you’ll find at LEAST 2 MP40’s, 3 STG44’s, a buttload of K98’s, a Beretta SMG and all kinds of other goodies.
Image name: dma_00166a

Image name: dma_00170
.
Man at left holds a sword. Man at right has air cooled MG. Behind him one can see another STG44 held by unseen person.
.
.

Go to municipal Archives website NYC Municipal Archives and search for the image names shown above. Zoom in on the image, give the hi-res a chance to load and enjoy!