Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!

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Onomea,
It could, of course, also be a later pre-war NON-Registered Magnum.
 
This is just in incredible!

Check out this message from Cal as posted in the prewar section:

Arlo/Onomea;
I sent you an email with two photos I have here of the gun. The gun was presented to Phil Roettinger by S & W in early 1942 for winning a match in Floriday, and it is engraved on the gun. He landed with the gun at Guadalcanal and later used it on Bouganville. He kept the gun through those actions -- place names (engraved by him) are on the gun as to where he used it in action. Later he became Station Chief for the C.I.A./Latin America, and kept the gun with him. He even arranged to have the gun registered here in Mexico as a "legal" firearm, which the .357 Magnum does not qualify for.

If you can post the photos, tell me in which thread you have done so and I will go there and tell you all I know about the gun. I do not know if it was a Registered Magnum or not, but perhaps you can tell from the photos. I do not believe there is ANYTHING written on the inside of the crane-yoke, but I will check when I go home today. But I think there is just NOTHING there, although there might be a serial number. I will check.
Thanks for letting me know a bit more about my gun. I knew it was quite valuable, and even more so because here in Mexico the .357 Magnum is illegal. This one was registered, and is registerd to me now by the Mexican Army. I cannot legally take it out and shoot it (although I do now and then as I have stated) but I can own it and most people down here cannot dream of owning a .357 without significant legal risks.
Cheers!
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5301039...391030332#2391030332

Here’s the pix:

Philsgun1.jpg


Philsgunside.jpg


Philengraving.jpg


On page 24 of the Jinks article, it says, “The last of the prewar Magnums were the 79 units finished in December, 1940. Three more magnums were built during World War II; two units in 1941 and one in 1942. No doubt these were for special high ranking officials.”

Friend Cal has the last pre-postwar magnum!! (Can’t very well call it the last prewar magnum if it was built in 1942.) A Non Registered Magnum. A very, very unique gun.

Man-o-man. Wow!
 
How cool. You just never know what you're going to run into. It's what makes this so exciting.
 
Great gun, great story.

calmex should definately letter it. Although it was presented in 1942, it might have been "built" before then. Perhaps Smith&Wesson had some "club gun" type stock reserved which could be engraved and presented as needed. A call or email to Roy Jinks and a follow up letter request is in order.
 
Any info on what the serial # is on this "Mexican Magnum"?

I have #62459, a 5", blue,original magnas and the HBH. As I "understand" it, #62489 is the LAST N frame made before the war.

Thanks for any info.

Bud
 
From Wiki...

"Philip Clay Roettinger (September 22, 1915–January 7, 2002)

CIA Operations Officer (1954-1964) who helped plan and execute the 1954 overthrow of the Left-Wing Guatamalan government led by Jacobo Arbenz after it threatened to nationalize property owned by the United Fruit Company.

Served as a U.S. Marine Corps Colonel in the Pacific during World War II.

Graduated from Ohio Wesleyan University.

Son of former Ohio Judge S. C. Roettinger

Was a member of the U.S. shooting team in the 1948 Olympics in London.

After the CIA, Roettinger settled in San Miguel Allende, Mexico to devote time to painting and raising a family."
 
Marvelous. Just marvelous! I'm just speechless...

Lee, you were right about it being an NRM (non–registered magnum). Not that that detracts from the value – either in the commercial sense or the historical sense – a whit! Or maybe it is one of those “club guns,” I s’pose.

OFT, it’s no “safe queen!” Calmex says he takes it out and shoots it. And with its campaign history in the Pacific, no way to call this baby a safe queen! Who could imagine a more colorful, magnificent provenance for a gun!

N_itis, I suppose it might be one of the two 1941 guns. That's true. If so, still mighty darn cool. But I am holding out for it being the last one, the 1942 one!

Bud, I don’t know the SN. Hopefully Calmex will tell us here, or if he is concerned about it being public he can email us, for the RM data base and so we can get Roy (Roy Jinks, the S&W historian) to check it out. Plus he needs the factory letter from Roy anyway, of course (only $30, Cal) to document it properly. (Great to see you posting again, Bud, by the way. I have missed your always informative posts in your absence!)

Jeremy, good work on the Wikipedia bio. Man, this just gets better and better, doesn’t it? What a provenance!
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After I posted the above info from Calmex, I went out for my morning walk and was thinking about this. With the Marine Corps and CIA background, records should be available from both organizations on Roettinger’s career. Plus the info along the lines Jeremy has turned up. And an Olympic shooter to boot! What an incredible, just incredible package Calmex has, and can further put together. What a display it would make!

Who knows, maybe if Calmex does put it all together, we could talk him into displaying at one of the SWCA meetings! Heck, I might even come over from Japan to see that!
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Say, if you plug "Guatemala" and "Roettinger" into Google, all kindsa stuff turns up!
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Arlo

Don't know if he'd be able to travel with that gun, being as how its registered
with the Mexican Army. And if he did, and returned without it, what might happen
then ?

Later, Mike Priwer
 
Originally posted by mikepriwer:
Arlo

Don't know if he'd be able to travel with that gun, being as how its registered
with the Mexican Army. And if he did, and returned without it, what might happen
then ?

Later, Mike Priwer
Mike, well, for starters, if I traveled with that gun, and returned without it, there'd be a coupla corpses lying around wherever the gun dissapeared!

No way I would ever let that one go, come hell or high water, were it mine!

Seriously though, you make a good point. Taking it out of country and then bringing it back might well be impossible. Hadn't considered that.
 
Originally posted by lonewolf:
Any info on what the serial # is on this "Mexican Magnum"?

I have #62459, a 5", blue,original magnas and the HBH. As I "understand" it, #62489 is the LAST N frame made before the war.

Thanks for any info.

Bud

Bud, here ya go: 62485. Cal said he did not mind me publishing the SN here.

I am in touch with Cal who is workin' his butt off right now, crunch time at whatever work he does, and too busy to hang out with us at the moment -- plus his internet connections are iffy -- but he says he'll try to write up more about the gun and his friend Phil tomorrow, or barring that, on Sunday. He is pleased that we find his gun interesting, and says he has some interesting stories that Phil told him...
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Say, maybe one of you boys with a pipeline to Roy could ask him details on that SN and then post here for the rest of us? I am an SWCA member, but have never used the site or contacted Roy. (Like it here just fine.
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)
 
Thanks, Arlo. Very interesting,and the #'s seem to fit. My NON-Reg, went to nearby NH, where I bought it about 15 years ago.

Its in excellent condition, but like ALL my revolvers, see's regular workouts in my "back yard". But only with "prudent handloads", ranging from 1200 fps. lswc gas checks, to 750 fps. wadcutter target loads-but ALL in .357 Mag cases to prevent chamber erosion.

Bud
 
I was the first IPSC Section Coordinator for the Province of Manitoba, Canada in 1980. Jeff Cooper was still World Director at the time. In 1990 Canadian Doctors told me my constant throat irritations were caused by the cold Manitoba climate and that perhaps I should consider moving to warmer climes. I came down to San Miguel de Allende, Mexico and worked around for a few years on odd jobs and finally ended up owning an Ice Cream Store. I bought myself an old classic VW Safari (Thing) because I thought it was cool.
One day, coming out of a restaurant, I saw an old guy admiring my car. I walked up to talk to him and he told me he had one JUST like it, same color, same model. His name was Phil Roettinger. He made some quip that I sensed was gun related -- oh, I remember, he made a Rat Patrol quip, that was it, and I shot back with another.
"You a shooter?" he asked me. I told him I was. He told me I should come up to his house some time to look at his guns.
"You have guns here?" I asked, astounded. I had thought that was impossible. He made a comment about how his former job had allowed him to get guns registered here in Mexico and left it at that.
Anyway, this is a long story and I am trying to make it short; I went to see him. We hit it off like peas in a pod even with 40 years difference in age. I mean, you had to SEE this guy. Big tall guy, beautiful ex-wife who still visited him all the time. Nice photo on his living room wall, the wife sitting on Manuel Noriega's knee. I mean, all the stuff that just made a young -- well, younger -- guy like me shake his head in absolute disbelief.
He showed me his guns and I saw the old 27. I picked it up, asked his permission to test the action, and admired it openly. He told me he had used it in the Pacific Campaigns -- in later years he told me so much more about that -- and had used it as a principal sidearm in the C.I.A. whenever he thought things might go really amiss. (His C.I.A. issue gun was an old pre-1957 style M & P .38 Special, no serial numbers, no markings. Period. A Doctor here in San Miguel owns it now. The Mexican Army ENGRAVED a serial number on it when they registered it. Aggghhh!!! Idiots!)
I remember turning to him that first day with the 27 in hand and saying, "When you die, this one's mine!"
His eyes sort of lit up, and he drawled, "Well, okayyyy." With a smile.
This started a friendship (this was 1991) that lasted until he died. He would come to my Ice Cream Store almost every day, and I ALWAYS stopped what I was doing to go sit and talk with him while he ate his Ice Cream. We talked about everything;
- Guatemala, and what happened there.
- Guadalcanal, and the whole campaign.
- Thompsons versus Grease Guns.
- Thompsons versus Garands, at night, during a Banzai attack.
Come on, figure it out. My Dad landed at Normandy (Juno) and I had become an EXPERT at making him talk. Phil was like my Dad, he wanted someone to tell this stuff to. I could ask whatever I wanted, I had 10 years to do it, and I asked a lot. He always answered as best he could. His ex-wife and daughter always told me that "Dad never talks to ANYONE...except you."
I remember doing so many things with Phil, whenever I could. It was sort of like the relationship between Denny Crane and Alan Shore on Boston Legal except we weren't lawyers. We were great friends, but 40 years apart in age and experience. I remember going to the 80th Birthday party of a first-day survivor (Stan Levine) of the landings on Tarawa, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. Man, there were two other Tarawa vets there. I went with Phil, and Phil's other "best friend", Colonel Phil Maher who was the American Consul in San Miguel at the time. It was Maher who, after Roettinger's death, arranged with the Mexican Army to actually let me register the Magnum he left me. Maher kept complaining "Cal wasn't even in that war..." . I was the youngest guy in the room by half. Roettinger cut him off with the comment, "No, but he SHOOTS better than you."
Anyway, I had a great time hanging out with those guys. They always called me "Boy" or "Kiddo" or whatever, but I didn't mind. Maher was also a W.W. II vet, a P-51 Pilot from the Pacific, and also later C.I.A. . I mean, those two guys knew were the bodies are buried and they were both ardent "gun guys". They are both gone now, but like my Dad, they were real heroes to me. They will live in my memory.
I was back in Canada in 2001 visiting my Mother, who had suffered a stroke. My Dad died in 1994 while I was down here and I wanted to be with Mom. When I got back here, I found out that Phil Roettinger had died and been buried while I was away. Well, that's life. My girls in the store told me; "The Spy has died." They called him "El Espia." They knew he was the ex-CIA Station Chief. It wasn't a secret or anything.
A month or so later, my phone rang at the store and it was Phil's daughter calling. She told me she was selling off her Dad's guns with the help of Phil Maher, (two Phil's, always confusing) the Consul. She paused, and then said; "He always wanted you to have the big one."
I sort of choked up for a minute, not knowing he had ever told anyone, and then blurted out; "I know."
"Well," she said, "come and pick it up."

Over the next few months, Phil Maher (the Consul) helped me with the Mexican Army so I could register the gun. Get this, I am Canadian, but the American Consul came to bat for me. Why the hell my country isn't backing the U.S. more is beyond me because in MY experience, well....the U.S. Consul sure went to bat for me and he didn't have to do that.
So, I have the gun. It is in my safe. I sometimes take it out -- in the bottom of the gunbag, and shoot it. It is not really dangerous, all the Police here KNOW I have a gun permit and can take my .38's and .22's and .380's -- the only guns permitted for civilian ownership in Mexico -- out to shoot. So they don't check me. They just wave me on through in my blue Safari (Thing). I reload for the gun, as I could never BUY .357 ammo here. Sometimes I do get the odd box of Factory .357 stuff smuggled down, it's how I get my brass -- but generally I have to reload. I can buy .38 Special ammo, and I sometimes shoot it with that. I guess you could call it a "Safe Queen with priveleges."
I tend to "baby" the gun, though, and don't shoot it often.

The other Phil, Phil Maher -- the former American Consul -- died past January. Another great loss of another great man.

I don't know what else to tell. If someone has specific questions about things, ask away. I will answer if I can, and will be honest about it if I do not know.

Thanks for reading and suffering through my remembrances of how that gun came to be sitting here in my safe.
Cal Nordman
 
Fantastic story. You have been truly blessed to have known such interesting heroes. On the other hand, you would not have ended up with the piece if you didn't deserve it. Old guy probably felt you earned it because of your relationship, and the fact you would properly take care of it.

All I can say, is, WOW!!!!
 

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