Does anyone have the serial number range of the 5- inch K-38's ?

Does anyone have the serial number range of the 5- inch K-38's ?

I did not finish my question. I am wondering if any of you have the serial number range for the ISP guns that were issued in the 50's

The Illinois guns were in the K301xxx, K302xxx and K303xxx range(s).

I'm from Illinois and as far back as I can remember, ISP never carried the K38? I was 60 in August and can remember them carrying model 10s then they went to model 39s, don't know what they carry now. I've known and been friends with many a state trooper over the years but, can't remember any K38s. Please tell us more about these guns and where you got your information? Special unit guns?
That's what I like about this forum, learn something new every time here.

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Joe, be sure to bring that one to Bill's on Fri., (along with whatever you got in Texas). See you at the FNRA Dinner Thurs.

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SWCA1967 SWHF244

S.B.
The 5" K38's in question are fairly well known in collector circles and were shipped in the Oct. 1957 timeframe. Not sure who carried these (guessing patrolmen), but they are pretty handy guns with that barrel length. The number of guns in the order has been mentioned to be 230 guns.

Prior to our state police adopting the S&W model 39 most of the "gun wise" troopers carried 5 or 6inch revolvers. I believe but am not sure, that the model 10 or colt op was issued but the officer was allowed to buy and carry personally owned revolvers. We have as members of the Forum some retired ISP officers who I hope will chime in with more and better info. With the wide use of numbers of different revolvers for both on duty and off duty the decision was made to adopt the 39 for both on and off duty. Interestingly when it was first issued the command of the patrol made no provision for carrying a spare mag. None the less, they were the first major LE organization to adopt an auto for general use by all members.

Didn't ISP use the same style crossdraw flap holster with the revolver as they did with the M39?

I thought that the early flap holsters for the 39 had a single magpouch sewn on, but when they went to a straightdraw Border Patrol thumbbreak, no pouch was issued and personal ones weren't authorized for wear on the duty belt.

James,to the best of my knowledge the very first flap holster for the 39 had no provision for an extra mag. One of my very best friends had his wife make him what very well may have been the first inside the pocket mag. carrier. The ISP was pretty anal about being uniform at that time. The holster with the mag pouch sewn in followed shortly there after.

Joe and I have had this discussion. We were only 65 miles apart, but - relying on our teenage memories circa 1965 - I remember only seeing ISP troopers with 4 inch revolvers in Jordan style holsters.

I was in District 9 headquarters at age 15 in about 1966-67 and saw a M-39 catalog page hung on the wall with a note saying, essentially, 'our new weapon.'

I had one of the early flap holsters on loan from a detective who didn't need it. No mag pouch. It was a much stiffer leather/clarino laminate than the later ones. I've seen various makers, including Hume and S&W leather.

The mag pouch sewn on the back of the flap was very neat, but with no retaining flap, would sometimes lose the magazine.

Strange also, that when ISP changed to the special Safariland mdl 254 in about 1976, they again had no magazine pouches.

The ISP 254 had a belt loop about twice the horizontal width of the normal holster, apparently to better stabilize the holster on the garrison belt that was normal uniform - but still fit on the 2 1/4" Sam Brown worn with the dress 'blouse.'

Seldom mentioned in these ISP holster threads: the Hume Agent 9 was designed for the ISP Dist. 25 detective section. It too is an iconic Illinois State Police holster for the M-39.

No, I was never a trooper. Joe and I were both local cops in the era and were close to several.

The Missouri State Highway Patrol 5 inch K38 Combat Masterpiece revolvers (they had the tapered barrels unlike the Illinois guns) were shipped in October 1952 or so. One example of this Missouri group is K38 number K157613, which shipped in October 1952.

Shawn, tell me more about the Mo. Patrol guns.

I didn't find the guy I was looking for, but I asked a more recently retired trooper, who started in 1969, what he knew about the ISP revolver days. He said that he thought all revolvers were personal purchase, with Colt or S&W allowed, in 4 or 6 inch.

He didn't know that ISP had ever issued guns before the M-39, but, then again, relatively speaking, he's a youngster.

I borrowed this from the museum web site. This is the only picture that shows holsters or weapons.

Here's a thread from the semiauto forum about the ISP M39 holster. http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5201039...881079652#9881079652

They were five inch K38 Combat Masterpiece revolvers with the Baughman ramp front sight on ramp base and micrometer click adjustable rear sights, standard magna stocks, and I believe standard triggers. Not sure about hammers if those were standard or target. Cannot remember.

They were carried in swivel holsters made by Dehner's of Omaha. Dehner's made the Sam Browne belt, the 12 round cartridge box (the type with both a top and bottom opening, each side held six rounds, lined with metal to retain its shape). Dehner's also made the shoulder strap, which attached to D-rings sewn to the wide belt loop on the swivel holster as well as a unique round bottom handcuff case.

The Missouri State Highway Patrol continued to buy 5 inch swivel holsters for all troopers even after they began buying 4 inch Combat Masterpiece revolvers so that there was one uniform length to the holsters. This is because the 5 inch guns stayed in service although new hires as the size of the force increased got 4 inch guns.

In the mid-70s, MSHP sold all K-38 Combat Masterpiece revolvers (a large number went to the troopers who carried them) when both the 5 inch and the subsequently acquired 4 inch guns were all replaced with 4 inch Model 66s.

Most of the troopers who had one realized they had something special and I know of more than one instance where a father retired and made sure his son was reissued the 5 inch gun so it would "stay in the family."

Real MSHP guns are quite hard to find, as opposed to the Illinois configuration, which is a straight walled 5 inch K38 Masterpiece barrel rather than the tapered barrel of the Combat Masterpiece, which is what the Missouri guns that I have seen had.

I think one reason the Illinois configuration is more prevalent is that H.H. Harris, a large S&W dealer in Chicago, used to offer the 5 inch guns as a regular item for sale to the public for several years in the 50s.

Of course, prior to the 1968 Gun Control Act it was legal for a Missouri resident to take the day and drive up to H.H. Harris and come home the next day with several guns, including Pintos, which H.H. Harris kept in regular stock. (I am not sure why he liked them, but lots of people do).

I recently looked at an H.H. Harris flyer from the 50s and he kept regular stock of Combat Magnums, 44 Magnums, 357 Magnums of all barrel lengths, 4 inch Combat Masterpiece and 5 inch K38 Masterpiece revolvers, Chief's Specials and all the hard to get stuff, as well as the Pinto (nickel/blue) guns in various models.

That is about all I can think of right now.

Shawn, were the guns marked with the Mo. Patrol stamp and were they in any particular group of serial numbers?

The Missouri State Highway Patrol K38 Combat Masterpiece revolvers had no special markings. My post above had one example of an MSHP lettered gun. Remember, back then S&W serial numbers were often not consecutive even within an agency purchase, so I would just assume "around" the number I said above.

Shawn, were the Mo. guns shipped directly to the Patrol or were they shipped to a certain distibutor? Also, do you have a photo of the 5 inch revolver that you mentioned earlier in the thread? From reading in the Supica 3rd catalog I can find nothing on the 5in combat.

An ISP 5" appears in this thread. http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/for...2921022813/p/1

This one is specifically about the 5" Combat Masterpiece. Photo is of the 5" ISP though. http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5301039...771057323#1771057323

Letters I have seen for the MSHP 5 inch guns show shipment directly to the Missouri State Highway Patrol. I do not have a photo, but you can get the idea if if you take a four inch Model 15 and add an inch to the barrel, but leave the taper in place. I will ask a friend if he has a picture of his.

Good show Tx: I had forgotten about that thread that mentioned the factory letter that showed shipment to the Patrol at both Jefferson City and Springfield. (Jefferson City is the location of MSHPs General Headquarters (GHQ) and there is a troop headquarters at Springfield.)

Shawn, somewhere on the MSHP website there's a history section that mentions the M15s being replaced with M66s, then the M66 being replaced shortly afterwards by a commemorative model. Don't know if that would be a 66 or 686...I don't have my copy of the book here.

A friend was a MSHP trooper in the early '80s and carried a 4" 686. He said policy in those days was strange. No prisoner cages in the cars, so arrestees rode up front next to the trooper (same in Texas). He said they were told to remove the 686 from the holster and place it under their left thigh while transporting a crook.

Found it.
http://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MSHPWeb/AboutThePatrol...ments/History80s.pdfUnder the 1983 heading: "Members were issued the B-30 Smith and Wesson Security holster and speedloader ammunition pouch early in the year. The holster was of semi-high rise design for added security to the officer. The accompanying speedloader pouch contained two Safariland speedloaders. An officer would be able to load six bullets from one of the speedloaders all at one time into his weapon in just a few seconds.
Officers were issued an L-frame .357-caliber
magnum. It replaced the commemorative magnum
issued in late 1979. Original issue of the .357-caliber magnum was in August 1976, to replace the Smith and Wesson K15 .38-caliber revolver."

James, the Patrol also issued Model 60's to each trooper as well. All of the stainless guns that I have seen as well as all the Glocks up to the very most recent have the MO. Patrol seal on them. The most recent does not because a former Patrol Glock that was marked was used in a crime.

Joe, that's interesting about the markings being removed for that reason. CDNN used to have the MHP G22s all the time..many had beadblasted slides. Don't know if the patrol did that or if it happened post sale.

I've got a pair of MHP Safariland 2955 holsters. The loop has an extra-long drop from the belt (a feature originally ordered by NYSP, I think). Clarino, in fairly beat-up condition. The beltloop has a pair of D-rings screwed on for a Don Hume crossover chest strap. Suprisingly, the straps were attached with leather tabs rather than the plastic breakaway versions. eBay used to be full of the black rigs, along with the brown Clarino worn by lieutenants and above. I seem to recall that the belts were usually Humes while the magpouches were Gould & Goodrich. Don't recall who made the cuffcase or other accessories.

James, a mutual close friend of both Craig and I is a retired senior Patrol Sgt. who was a firearms instructor at both troop and HQ. He was the one who passed on the info about the markings and arranged for me to buy a virtually new retired Glock from the most recent{last few months} trade-in. As an aside I am looking for a Mo. Patrol Win. Model 1907 .351.

Joe and Tx:

Where to begin? Let's see. The first MSHP guns in recent years to have markings were the second batch of Model 66s, which were in 1981, which were marked with the 50th Anniversary markings. The first batch of 66s had no special markings and replaced the 4 and 5 inch Combat Masterpiece revolvers in 1976.

The second batch of 66s were replaced by 686s, also with the shoulder patch on the sideplate.

It was not until the 686s that MSHP changed to the S&W/Gould and Goodrich Security Plus holster and speed loader pouch. The belts and cuff cases were still made by Dehner's at that time.

Once they went to Glock, the holsters, belts and everything were contracted out to different makers. Safariland supplied the original holsters, a level two, and Gould and Goodrich recreated the Dehner's round bottom cuff pouch. Other makers now do it on bid, which accounts for why you may have seen the Don Hume shoulder strap, etc.

The shoulder strap has the leather tab on each end, true, but what they do not get rid of is the metal spring clip, which attaches the D ring on the rear of the holster to the part of the shoulder strap in the back. Oddly, the front of the shoulder strap is attached by the leather tab without a break away spring steel clip. Thus, the breakaway is only on one end of the shoulder strap (in the back). Once you take off the spring steel clip, the shoulder strap just looks like the normal leather fold-over with the stud on both ends.

The newest Safariland holster MSHP is using allows the light to stay attached to the Glock in the holster, and it has the rotating hood safety strap. It may be experimental in a test group of troopers now, but from what I hear it is getting good reviews and if the budget allows, they will switch. (Since this was originally written, I have now been told by a trooper that they do not plan to adopt the holster that allows carry of the light in place on the Glock 22 pistol.)

They already ditched the Glock brand light for the Streamlight, I believe (TL-1, I think - no laser), or perhaps the SureFire, but I think Streamlight.

As regards off duty weapons, in the days of the Combat Masterpiece, MSHP issued Model 37s - they had flat latches - no special markings.

The first batch of 60s had no special markings, but when they got the marked 66s, they replaced the first 60s with 60s with the same shoulder patch on the sideplate. The second batch of 60s stayed until the Glocks, at which time they were sold off to troopers or to a distributor that handled the deal, either Ray O'Herron or Law Enforcement Equipment Company, I forget.

Shawn, are you with the Patrol or retiredfrom it?

Shawn, thanks for that very detailed information. Both of my holsters were missing the spring clip on the rear part of the strap...that's what I get for assuming that they originally shipped like that.

About two weeks ago a Court TV show called "Under Fire: Deadliest Police Shootouts" aired here. One of the profiled gunfights showed a trooper using the gunlight-equipped G22.

I remember a story from a few years ago about a MSHP sergeant and some of his troopers meeting for dinner at a cafe. During the meal, one of the troopers leaned over and asked the sergeant where his pistol was. The sergeant looked down to an empty holster and realized he'd left his G22 in the lockbox back at the jail. He reached down to his ankle, drew his backup G27, and stuck it into the duty holster then made the drive back to recover his service pistol.

Shawn, thanks for all your very interesting and detailed info. James, always a pleasure to visit with you. Craig and I along with some other friends are going to the Springfield gun show in a few hrs. so I should sign off now and hit the "hay". All my best. Joe

Joe:

Let me know if you find a 5 inch at the show!

No. I am a lawyer with a law enforcement background and used to teach troopers at the MSHP Academy at Jefferson City. As a result, I have several friends on the Patrol, and since a very young age, have been interested in the patrol and its history, and because of my lifelong interest in S&W revolvers, I have made a careful study of both of those areas.

Joe, it's my birthday next month. Since you'll be at the gunshow anyway...

Shawn, thanks for sharing your information with us. I couldn't ID the holsters from the photos on the MSHP site, so the Dehner's reference was particularly useful. How big was MSHP on uniformity? IE, could a trooper elect to a use a personally owned revolver, grips, or holster or did they have to go with issue only?

Uniformity was such that all troopers had to wear holster on the right hip so the shoulder strap passed over the left shoulder (remember, MSHP connects the shoulder strap to the holster).

This is no longer true, but at the time of the Combat Masterpiece revolvers, this was the case. Everyone had to use S&W factory grips.

When they had the Combat Masterpiece revolvers I saw one trooper one time with a grip adapter (firearms training guy at the academy), and I saw one trooper one time with factory target grip, and do not know if it was allowed or if it was just because he was away from GHQ!

I know troopers that would change out their grips on the original 66s for target practice so they could use speed loaders (most used Pachmayr Presentation), but they had to put the wooden ones back on for duty.

The original 66s had factory targets, but without the speedloader cut outs. They did not get speed loaders until they got 686s, so the grip issue was irrelevant.

The 686s all had factory smooth combats with spped loader cuts. The second batch of 66s had targets with dual speedloader cuts, basically for uniformity, as the right side grip had to be relieved to see the engraved shoulder patch roll mark. They did not use speedloaders at the time of the second batch of 66s. They still used double cartridge box from Dehner's.

Dehner's is still in Omaha, and they have a web site. They are famous for riding boots.

When MSHP appeared in vintage uniforms for the opening of the legislative session on the patrol's 75th anniversary in 2006, they went all out with original vintage uniforms and the honor guard carrying the flags into the capital builging had original sets of Dehner leather made (the same guy who used to make it is still at Dehner's and they still have the patterns for all of Missouri's stuff).

Originally, the Missouri pattern stuff was made of french calf leather with studs instead of snaps. Later they went to snaps. Under the rank of lieutenant wore black with nickel studs and later snaps. Lieutenants and above wore brown with brass or gold colored studs and snaps. When "high gloss" became the standard in the 70s or so, Dehner's supplied the Missouri pattern in "Dehcord" which is the high gloss stuff made by Clarino.

Dehner's web site does not currently show the Missouri pattern swivel holster or handcuff case. The Missouri pattern cartridge case is shown, although it is not called that.

Dehner's old written flyer used to show the Missouri belt, shoulder strap, holster, handcuff case and cartridge box all together and it was referred to as the "Missouri style." Dehner's made custom sets for other state and local agencies as well.

Personally owned revolvers and holsters were strictly forbidden for duty use.

1959



1968


1978

Outstanding pictures. Those missouri guys clearly have the Dehner holsters and equipment and the 5 inch Combats in their holsters. Good show!

The IL State Police never issued sidearms prior to the Model 39. It's not to say the 5" K-38 wasn't carried by an IL Troop but it would have been his personally owned gun. All sidearms prior to the 39 were personal purchase. They could be either Colt or S&W, 4" to 6" barrel. Shotguns were issued but the sidearm choice and purchase was left up to the Troop.
In 1967, thanks to Sgt Louie Seman, the ISP decided to go with the 39 to standardize the same gun for all sworn. This increased the fire power, going from 6 rds to 8. Reloading was quicker also. In addition the 39 was easier to conceal off duty than one of the duty revolvers. Part of the thinking was with a duty gun that was easier to conceal then more Troops might carry it off duty.
Prior to the 39 the holster was a cross draw with a strap. When the 39 was adopted the holster was a crossdraw plain black clarino. Instead of positioning along the off side pants seam in true cross draw style many Troops carried the crossdraw infront of the hip bone just to the left of the belt buckle. Sort of an opposite side appendix carry. That made the draw extremely quick particularly when you were standing bladed to a violator with your hands sort of crossed in front of you. An extra mag pouch was sewn on the back side of the flap. In 1977 the holster was changed to a strong side with thumb break in plain clarino. The Sam Browne belt was dropped and everything was carried on a garrison belt. When the strong side holster was first adopted there wasn't money appropriated for extra mag pouches so those were personal purchase for about a year until the next budget. Single mag pouches were then issued. Double mag pouches could be carried but they were personal purchase. A few years later double mag pouches were issued.
The picture above dated 1978 was taken in my old district during a staff assembly inspection. That's where we laid out all our issued gear and the chief (center) and the area commander (right) would inspect all your gear (which was required to be maintained in like new condition), your squad car (we painted engines and waxed the floor mats) and then do a an inspection of you and your weapon in the military fashion.

Here are some more pictures, circa 1927 of the old Troops and their uniforms. These were a bit before my time.

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183rd FBINA

[Don't remember what I originally had here; this will have to do.]







As is often stated, many were not happy with the M-39. One of my early idols was an ISP detective who worked the governor's security detail. He said that one time the governor asked that one of the detail show a visiting governor the new ISP pistol. Each one looked at the other in a panic as they realized that they were all carrying revolvers. Fortunately, one of the younger troopers had his 39.

Cap , I forgot about painting the engine. One Saturday in 1970 or so I went with the Trooper who was my best man in my wedding to a car wash to de-grease his car's engine before spray painting it. The guys on my local PD shift got quite a charge out of it. Thanks for bringing back some good memories.

Those assembly inspections sure aren't good memories. They're every 2 yrs now and still a pain. Glad I'm retired. Everything that was metal had to be painted or polished. Pry bars and lug wrenches all got a fresh coat of paint. Even the brass on our shotgun shells got polished with Brasso. If we couldn't paint it or polish it then it had to be washed, cleaned and folded just right. We had cloth car seats and we'd shampoo the seats, Armorall or floor wax the vinyl floor mats (no carpeting), dash, anything plastic, and all hoses were Armoralled. We'd pull the covers off our overhead lights and wax the inside of the covers, wax the inside of the hubcaps, and touch up any paint chips. We'd take steel wool to the antennas and polish them to where they'd shine. All this cleaning and polishing was on your time. We'd all usually start about 2 weeks before the assembly inpection finishing up the small things and giving everything a coat of wax. A squad might be several years old but the engines would be spotless and freshly painted.
What a pain it was.

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183rd FBINA

Cap, are you telling me the State Of Ill.,where we elect our governors to two terms and then sentence them to 5 to 10 yrs, is still anal in their operations in dealing with the ISP. I tell you I am shocked mind you shocked. That being said ,thank you for your service to the citizens, it is appreciated by a number of us. The good memories I spoke of were with the troopers of Distict 7 who backed us up on more than one occasion. Besides, you always enjoyed working around "Moon". Best Regards, Joe.

Wife's brother went on in 1954 If I remember right, and carried a Python 6". I used to ride with him when I was home on leave.

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the world is round everywhere

I started out in Henderson Co.
Moon is still around altho retired several years ago. Fun guy. Still see him a few times a year.

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183rd FBINA

error, sorry.

howdy , does anyone know what the duty holster was ??
I got a real odd ball one here k-38 5 inch barrel , Ox Blood red , could this be a ILL. state Police holster ???
or I think the Missippi State Police also issued per model 14 with 5 inch barrels , robbt

To all but especially Shawn McCarver and Joe Kent.

I posted information on a K-38 5" barrel that letters to the Missouri State Highway Patrol on another forum thread, but thought it may be of interest to this discussion on the Illinois State Police versions. My post, including pictures, is under 1961-1980 Hand Ejectors, discussion entitled My K Frame Pre Model Stamp.

Thanks, Russ

I have, as do a handful of other collectors, a copy of the original invoice from S&W to H.H. Harris, dated sometime in 1957 (November, I think...). The invoice shows the order to be for the ISP, delivered at whatever the ISP HQ address was at the time, billing was to Harris direct. The serial numbers of the 200+, 5" K-38's are listed on the invoice and are in the K300,000-K304,000 range.

I personally don't have positive knowledge that ISP issued them or not, but they did order and pay for them thru Herbie Harris, and that's a fact on paper. Herbie was a smart guy, one of the best firearms marketers of all time and wouldn't have ordered 230 special guns, billed to the State, on the off-chance that individual troops would be dropping in to purchase them.

One of the old-time collectors in Chicago was a trooper at the time and he still has his 5", K-38, purchased from the State when he retired.

If I had a scanner, I'd post a copy of the invoice. Maybe SmithNut has a copy and can do just that - How 'bout it, Rob ??

David

I have an interest in the rest of that box for the ISP five inchers, too. Also, does anyone have a pic of a five inch Combat Magnum Pre Model 15? Love to see it. Thanks.

from MeAmMe: Also, does anyone have a pic of a five inch Combat Magnum Pre Model 15? Love to see it. Thanks.


Here is a picture of a 5" barrel as purchased by the Missouri State Highway Patrol in 1952. Based on the tapered barrel, I believe it to be a pre-15 Combat Masterpiece.





Russ
S&WCA #853