.357 Magnum Barrel Length

[DARE]

Have read that Registered Magnums were available in 3 1/2" to
8 3/4" barrel in 1/4" increments. Did non-registered guns have the same barrel lengths available?
My 1941 S&W Catalogue lists barrel lengths as 3 1/2", 5", 6",
6 1/2" , and 8 3/8".
Apparently the reason for the 8 3/8" is that it had a 10" sight base and that was the maximum permissible in "Any Revolver" matches.
I think Terry Lester said that at least one RM exists in all possible barrel lengths. So long barrels would be 8", 8 1/4", 8 1/2" and
8 3/4". 8 3/8" is not a 1/4" increment.
So when did the 8 3/8" length become available?

[22hipower]

I don't know but there is a chart posted here somewhere, by whom I don't remember, which shows the various RM barrel lengths at least as best identified from available records. That chart shows 37 8 3/8 produced between 1935 and 1942.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

[rct269]

Okay------"So when did the 8 3/8" become available?"

I don't know either, but this should get you close. "This change (8 3/8" down from 8 3/4") was the result of a dispute which arose in 1936 over the legality of using the 8 3/4" revolver in the USRA's and NRA's 'Any Revolver Match'. This is best explained in a statement by S&W in their 1936 Magnum flyer: "While U.S.R.A. and N.R.A. 'Any Revolver Match' rules allow a 10" sight base, they have a second rule allowing but 10" for a combined barrel and cylinder. To conform to this requires a barrel of 8 3/8" on the S&W .357 Magnum Revolver. It is from this point that S&W established the odd length of 8 3/8" barrel for its longest barrel lengths in revolvers."

Ralph Tremaine

As to what barrel lengths were available on the non-registered Magnums, they were the then standardized sizes of 3 1/2, 5, 6, 6 1/2, and 8 3/8 inches. And just to make sure NOBODY felt left out, "Special lengths now at slight extra charge." That means you can have any barrel length you want which is between 3 1/2" and 8 3/8" for a "slight extra charge". In other words, it's as Dr. Jinks has been known to say on many occasions, "They (S&W) would do anything anybody would pay them to do."

[opoefc]

All Reg. Mag barrels were made in 8 3/4 in length by welding two shorter pieces together. If an order was received for a shorter barrel , the 8 3/4 in barrel was cut to the ordered length, refinished and installed on a frame and shipped to the distributor for delivery to the customer. If you have a Reg. Mag with a barrel less than 8 3/4 in, you technically have a factory altered gun with a refinished barrel. Therefore, if you are a serious collector who would not own a refinished gun, and own a Reg. Mag. with a barrel shorter than 8 3/4 in., pls send them all to me for proper disposal, OK? Ed

[sodacan]

[QUOTE=opoefc;141419892]All Reg. Mag barrels were made in 8 3/4 in length by welding two shorter pieces together. If an order was received for a shorter barrel , the 8 3/4 in barrel was cut to the ordered length, refinished and installed on a frame and shipped to the distributor for delivery to the customer. If you have a Reg. Mag with a barrel less than 8 3/4 in, you technically have a factory altered gun with a refinished barrel. Therefore, if you are a serious collector who would not own a refinished gun, and own a Reg. Mag. with a barrel shorter than 8 3/4 in., pls send them all to me for proper disposal, OK? Ed[/QUOTE

Wouldn't that have created a potential weak spot in the barrel? What is the source of that information? No disrespect intended, and I don't mean to impugn your knowledge. Just looking for enlightenment.

[RKmesa]

... and the 8 3/8" barrel was certainly available by 5/20/1937, because that is when this one (REG 2394) left the factory and shipped to Dr. A. A. Thomas of Indiana (and it shipped with a set of Magnas and Ropers).

[DARE]

Found an article written by Roy Jinks that has a chart listing barrel lengths of RMs.
8 3/8" is listed with 37 examples.
I guess what I read about 1/4" increments is incorrect.
All the other increments are 1/4", with 8 3/8" being the exception.

[rct269]

8 3/8" came to be because of the rules of the sanctioning bodies (USRA and NRA) specifying 10" combined length for barrel and cylinder----------never mind the sight base rule---and never mind 1/4" increments which was nothing more than a marketing gimmick.

In my opinion, the entirety of the Registered Magnum phenomenon was nothing more than a marketing scheme designed to save S&W's butt, and God love'em, it worked. I suspect it worked beyond their wildest expectations. If you have any doubts about this, start expressing them by explaining the very clear desire to sell direct to the end consumer (and thereby retaining the entirety of the retail price). Next, explain the efficacy of the entirely ridiculous distributor price at the outset of the program ($47 and change) leaving less than $13 for gross profit for the distributor AND the retail dealer---effectively insuring no distributor in their right mind is going to get involved unless forced to do so by circumstances. After that, take a look at the outsized impact of the sale of a paltry few RMs on total sales for the reported periods. You'll come away believing as I do that Doug Wesson was a very hip dude, and all the Wessons that stayed rich after the 1930's owed him a huge debt of gratitude!!

Ralph Tremaine

Oh, and while you're at it, keep in mind S&W's cost to make an RM was $17. And keep in mind their practice prior to the RM was to set the distributor price at approximately double the manufacturing cost. You will quickly come to see they were more than a bit desperate to get some cash coming in. And while I don't really know the first thing about it, I suspect the war years also proved to be very beneficial to S&W's cash register.

[lestert357]

From Roy Jinks’ article entitled Registered .357 Magnums published in the S&WCA Journal Volume 44, Number 2, Summer 2010…….

[Leroy Thompson]

Although the Non-Registered Magnum was listed with set barrel lengths, other lengths were available for $1 extra.

[Doug M.]

My recollection is that the US economy did not come back to pre-depression levels until shortly after WW2. As for welding two barrels together to make the long ones, I really have my doubts.

[Retired W4]

The Great Depression forced people to do many strange, and sometimes outrageous things.

[mtgianni]

Originally Posted by Doug M.

My recollection is that the US economy did not come back to pre-depression levels until shortly after WW2. As for welding two barrels together to make the long ones, I really have my doubts.

It would take aminimum of four passes to build up the metal. With the required cooling time after each weld and re-rifling it would be much cheaper to re-rifle a new piece from a blank.

[SAFireman]

Originally Posted by mtgianni

It would take aminimum of four passes to build up the metal. With the required cooling time after each weld and re-rifling it would be much cheaper to re-rifle a new piece from a blank.

Yah....Ed was pulling your leg.....the barrels are forged as one piece, then cut, drilled, and rifled. Nobody welded two barrel pieces together

[Jimmy4570]

It's remarkable considering that S&W built such guns back then that ran so well in the era when skilled labor was cheaper than the equipment. We no live in the inverse era where the machinery is cheaper than the people, supposedly on paper more precise but unable to turn out revolvers and pistols with the same fine feel of the older guns. Short of a 3 1/2" .357 and a 4" model 29, I'm pretty well set for pre-lock Smiths. Thinking hard about the Manurhin MR-73 as a pinnacle piece...

[paplinker]

If all Rem Mag bbls start as 8 3/8 do they all have the roll marks in the same place or did they apply it after the cutting process?

[RKmesa]

Originally Posted by paplinker

If all Rem Mag bbls start as 8 3/8 do they all have the roll marks in the same place or did they apply it after the cutting process?

The pre-war .357 Magnum barrels started at 8 3/4" and the roll marks were always in the same place (give or take a very little).

[19leben]

Originally Posted by lestert357

From Roy Jinks’ article entitled Registered .357 Magnums published in the S&WCA Journal Volume 44, Number 2, Summer 2010…….

Do we know where the one-offs are, including the lone 1942 gun? I’d love to see a 7-1/4 or 7-3/4” gun!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lestert357]

Originally Posted by 19leben

Do we know where the one-offs are, including the lone 1942 gun? I’d love to see a 7-1/4 or 7-3/4” gun!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Here is what I can determine from the S&WCA Pre-War .357 Magnum Database:
1) The 7 3/4” Magnum is serial number 46671, REG 458, blue finish, service style grips, and listed as a 95% gun, so it apparently has surfaced at some point in the past. Note that location/ownership is not tracked in the database.
2) The original 7 1/4”, 6 1/4”, and 5 3/4” Magnums are not listed in the database.
3) The Magnum listed as shipped in May 1942 is serial number 62485 and was a presentation to Lt. Philip Rottinger. I believe this information is taken from Dr. Jinks records.
4) Although not listed on Dr. Jinks’ 2010 table above, another Magnum was shipped in November 1943. It is serial number 62489, with 4 1/2” barrel, Baughman QD front sight on a King Ramp base, Magna grips, blue finish, 99% with box, and it was a special order for Robert Wallswait of West Hartford, CT. Since condition is known, this Magnum has surfaced in the collector community.
5) The lowest production count Pre-War Magnum I have personally encountered is one of the eight 3 3/4” guns. It is serial number 49606/REG 1495 and pictured below. It is discussed in this thread if you’re interested in reading about it: A Gunfighter’s 3 3/4” Reg Mag?

[SAFireman]

I'm curious....since wartime production was a priority, and the registration process was being eliminated, did anyone keep records on the NON-Reg Mag barrel lengths?

I have seen references to 'Standardized Lengths' but not really any firm production numbers.

Does anyone know? or has a table been produced and I just failed at Google-Foo?

Thanks

[handejector]

Originally Posted by 19leben

Do we know where the one-offs are, including the lone 1942 gun?

We've known where the 42 gun is for a long time-----
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!

[Leroy Thompson]

I have a 7" Non-registered Magnum, the letter for which states there was a $! charge for the "non-standard" barrel

[wordsmith]

If my recall is working correctly, it is written 'somewhere' (attributed to Roy Jinks) that all RM barrels originated from 9" or 9.5" blanks and were cut to lengths specified per order. Hence, the virtually same left & right side roll-mark locations on all.

David

[Wiregrassguy]

Roy Jinks wrote an article on the Registered Magnum in the Winter 1989 SWCA Journal, Volume 24 Number 3 and 4. In this article, he recounts how all RM barrels started as 8-3/4".

[mikepriwer]

Here is one of the 3 3/4" registered magnums. The first two pictures are the left and right sides of the revolver.





The next picture is page 2 of the factory letter.



Regards, Mike Priwer

[Wiregrassguy]

Originally Posted by 22hipower

I don't know but there is a chart posted here somewhere, by whom I don't remember, which shows the various RM barrel lengths at least as best identified from available records. That chart shows 37 8 3/8 produced between 1935 and 1942.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

I believe this is the table Jeff refers to:

[lestert357]

Originally Posted by mikepriwer

Here is one of the 3 3/4" registered magnums. The first two pictures are the left and right sides of the revolver.





The next picture is page 2 of the factory letter.



Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike, beautiful RM! For the SWCA database, it that original finish or factory rework?

[lestert357]

Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy

I believe this is the table Jeff refers to:

Guy, the most recent table of RM barrel lengths that Roy has published is the one I pictured in post 9 above.

[Jim Watson]

What's with the "nozzle effect" of early Magnums?
The rib stopping short of the muzzle looks odd to later generations.
Not like they hadn't been running ribs right out to the muzzle on top breaks .

[delcrossv]

Originally Posted by SAFireman

Yah....Ed was pulling your leg.....the barrels are forged as one piece, then cut, drilled, and rifled. Nobody welded two barrel pieces together

Not for these, but some antique models were 2 piece.

[mikepriwer]

Here is another scarce barrel length - the 6 3/4" variant. The first two pictures are the right and left sides of the gun. The right side photo shows a bright blue area on the barrel, which is not on the gun. Its a problem with late afternoon sun in Oregon!





The next picture is the factory letter, which was written to Gary Garbrecht years ago. I bought the gun when his estate came to auction. In researching the letter, with the help of Dartmouth University, i found out that the spelling of the recipients last name is incorrect. It should be McCornack. He was a graduating senior at Dartmouth, and was majoring in geology. The gun was a graduation gift from his father, shipped to him at Dartmouth. He had a career as a Consulting Geologist, probably in some remote areas around the world. The gun shows holster wear along the forward sides, probably because of constant carrying in his exploration work.



Regards, Mike Priwer

[StrawHat]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

What's with the "nozzle effect" of early Magnums?
The rib stopping short of the muzzle looks odd to later generations.
Not like they hadn't been running ribs right out to the muzzle on top breaks .

Jim,

I am not a student of the RM but I have a few N frames. I believe the “nozzle” you are seeing is a result of camera angle relative to the revolver.

Kevin

[DARE]

I think what Jim is talking about is that the rib ends about 1/8" before the end of the barrel on a RM.

[Jim Watson]

Yes. Is it just a Magnum Exclusivity Thing like the checkered top and recessed rims?

[handejector]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

Yes. Is it just a Magnum Exclusivity Thing like the checkered top and recessed rims?

We'll reply around November of next year.

[Retired W4]

Not a barrel length comment but mikepriwer's gun with magnas shipping December, 1936 is interesting. I believe that';s pretty early for magnas. Very cool.

[DARE]

Think I have read that the 1st Magnas were September 1935. My gun that shipped December 24,1935 #657 came with them.

[rct269]

Originally Posted by DARE

Think I have read that the 1st Magnas were September 1935. My gun that shipped December 24,1935 came with them.

As did one of mine-----shipped December 19, 1935---#643.

As an aside, #643 was one of three purchased by the same man---ostensibly as Christmas presents---the other two being 644 and 645. (He was pretty much getting his knickers in a knot as Christmas approached, and him with no guns. That said, it was his own fault, having ordered the guns from his local dealer (in September) instead of direct from S&W (as they VERY much wanted folks to do). The dealer then passed the order on to Shapleigh Hardware, who sat on it for an unknown reason for the better part of two months. Then, to add insult to injury, having ordered the guns with service grips, with grip adapter attached, he got wind of the new Magnas, and changed his order---pretty much at the last minute.

A fickle lot, these S&W fans!

Ralph Tremaine

[RKmesa]

REG 649 also shipped in December 1935 and also shipped with magnas...

[DARE]

My original question in this thread was when was the 8 3/8" barrel 1st available. In another thread, RM Vivas says that there was one 8 3/8" gun in the first 500 RMs. So the answer is sometime in 1935.
In yet another thread, RKmesa provided a scan of the "second" brochure for the .357 Magnum. I notice under barrel length it mentions the 8 3/8". Wonder if the first brochure does also?

[Doc44]

I have an undated All Model Circular most likely issued in late 1939 or early 1940 (prior to listing the K22/40) showing the .357 Magnum being available with a 3 1/2, 5, 6, 6 1/2, or 8 3/8-inch barrel. I also have a .357 Magnum order form dated December 13, 1945 listing the same barrel lengths and with a statement any other lengths between the two extremes can be supplied at a slight additional charge.

Bill

[RKmesa]

Originally Posted by DARE

...In yet another thread, RKmesa provided a scan of the "second" brochure for the .357 Magnum. I notice under barrel length it mentions the 8 3/8". Wonder if the first brochure does also?

The order form at the back of the early/first brochure does not specifically reference the 8 3/8" like the second brochure does...

[raljr1]

Originally Posted by rct269

I suspect the war years also proved to be very beneficial to S&W's cash register.

I cannot speak to the balance of your comment, but I worked in a machine shop in the 70's and a gent who we did machining for was active in manufacturing during the war years his comment one day, "Cost plus won WWII." That stuck with me. So manufacturers were assured profitability on goods manufactured for the Défense Department. So you may be right, the war supply was very likely a shot in the arm for Smith & Wesson.