When I get a nice S&W, the first thing I do is polish the bolt with some Flitz on a Q-tip. Not a lot of pressure -- just smooth it and take the edge off. They feel like glass after a minute or two.

That got me to wondering how in the heck a turn line forms, between every chamber, from notch to notch, on almost every gun I've ever seen. I mean, when you cock it, the bolt drops down, and should only touch slightly on a well-timed gun.

So here's my theory of how the rings get there: opening and closing the cylinder, and manually rotating it, dragging the bolt along the cylinder until it drops into the first notch it comes to. Is that it...?

When you say bolt, are you talking about the cylinder stop in the bottom of the frame, that goes into the notch in the cylinder; or the one in the frame (thumpiece attached to it) that the centerpin pushes back, locking the cylinder into the back of the frame?

A partial (not complete) turn line is normal and is an expected part of its design.

If it is complete from one notch to the next, it comes from like you mentioned, and rotating the cylinder backwards.

If the cylinder locking bolt is rough, you get a scratch worn in the cylinder.

If the bolt is very smooth and the edges lightly broken you get a burnished line.
Whichever it is, you WILL get a line in the cylinder on the S&W and most all other modern DA revolvers.
The bolt is under more spring pressure than you might think and presses against the cylinder with more than enough pressure to quickly leave the line.

You do increase the line from opening and closing the cylinder, but the S&W bolt was specifically designed to "ride" the cylinder for most of it's rotation, and when metal rubs against metal you get wear marks, which is what the line is.

I didn't know that, fariswheel. I thought it dropped down while the cylinder rotated, then popped back up. I see your point about a burnished line, too. No getting around it.

Yes, cylinder bolt, not hand.

Brokenprism:
You are correct, never rotate the cylinder if it is not locked.
That is the only way the line will show up.
The bolt drops out of the way when the gun is cocked.
I go around and around with one of our members about his habit of closing the revolver them turning the cylinder.
Every one of his guns new in the boxes have turn lines.
I just can't convince him not to keep doing it.
That is why I don't let him open and close any of my guns.
DBWesson

So... how DO you open and close a cylinder to avoid this? Pull the hammer slightly back to drop the bolt? Will the latch even release the cylinder when the hammer is part way back?

I guess there's more control over how you close it. They rotate... to the left, from a shooter's POV, so align the cylinder such that, when you close it, the bolt engages the 'approach' groove of the first notch it will reach when it is nudged a little more into the notch? I don't have one with me just now -- it arrives next week -- or I'd experiment a little.

I have 2 handguns that are both several years old, a S&W model 29 and a Colt Python, both are very nicely blued, both have several 100's of rounds fired through them, both do not show a significant turn line on the cylinder at all. These guns based on the lack of the "turn-line" could
pass as hardly being fired. I have purchased a few guns off the internet that also exhibited very light turn line marks on the outside only to discover other areas of the gun showing significant wear and tear. I make sure that when purchasing guns via the internet that you ask alot of questions and don't just assume because the gun doesn't show an outward appearance of being shot alot that it hasn't had several rounds fired through it.
I'm really not sure how this is possible, but I have seen it in a couple of my guns that I have owned and fired as well as other "bad purchases" through the internet. Has anyone else seen this phenomenon?
Respectfully,
SM1357

Well, there is a cut, in the cylinder, just before the notch, designed to allow the stop to "pop" up in it and then go into the notch. I suppose with enough tinkering, you could time up the cylinder stop to only pop up while its in the lead up to the actual notch. I've never tried it though. I also suppose stoning the top and edges of the stop with a hard Arkansas stone or other polishing medium would help prevent the cylinder line to some degree. I just always kind of accepted it as a part of the way a S&W wears in.

On Colt single actions for example, some say that a turn line is a sign of poor handling. If you watch how it operates and where it pops up, you can see where that would be the case. Operating the action correctly will avoid forming a turn line. On my Rugers and S&Ws though, which are all shooters or carry pieces, I accept the partial turn line as part of the functioning of the action. Even then I close the cylinder carefully where I can.

When I am handling someone else's gun, or looking at a revolver at a shop, I close the cylinder very carefully to respect the condition of their firearm. Or I hand it back to the person with the cylinder open and let them close it as they see fit. I hate seeing people handle revolvers with disregard or ignorance.

Like spinning a loaded cylinder and then wrist snapping it shut?! Makes me queasy...I take every opportunity to tell every person I hand a revolver to that they WILL NOT wrist snap the cylinder home unless they are looking to buy it on the spot. I've seen it happen at a show before and what's really suprising is when the dealer seems indifferent too.

Back on topic....I have read that polishing the cylinder bolt (cylinder stop) lightly with flitz, as stated above, and also carefully and minimally rounding the left edge of the bolt (if looking down & muzzle pointed away) helps to minimize a turn line if there is not already a turn line present. Noting that the right edge should be left sharp and intact as that is what interacts with the cylinder notch. Anyone care to comment on this? I think I read that on this website but I'm not 100% sure.

I have read that one of the gun manufactures Smith I believe feels that some bolt drag is essential and desirable in not skipping the cylinder engagement.

I have at least on highly tuned single action where there is no drag line as the bolt timing is near perfect with the cuts in the cylinder.

__________________
Len

The "technique" I referred to in my previous post is, in fact, found in a sticky at the top of the gunsmithing section. Please refer to that post (it's near the bottom of the page) to correctly determine how the polishing and light rounding would be done. I am NOT a gunsmith and do not portend to be one. I just remembered reading about the turn line.

There's a lot of good information in that stickied post...

FAQ's

Thanks, got it. I see that since the cylinder rotates leftward (when you're behind the gun), slightly rounding/polishing the leading (left) edge of the bolt stop minimizes the amount of time the bolt will be in contact with the cylinder wall between the notches while the gun is being cycled normally. It may eliminate the contact altogether on a well-timed gun. This still leaves the matter of opening and closing the cylinder on that well-timed gun, and I guess the answer is to (1) polish the bolt, (2) observe where it drops on your gun, and (3) close the cylinder while it is positioned with the bolt at the beginning of the notch approach, then click into place. That's a lot of fussing over what many here are happy to call a tool that is susceptible to 'honest wear,' but some of us are finish freaks, and we accept the implied scorn cheerfully. ; )

When my gun gets here, I'll find out through experimentation whether pulling the hammer slightly back when opening the cylinder is even possible and, if so, whether it helps clear the bolt stop as the cylinder is swung out.

Go for it. You certainly seem qualified.

That certainly adds a lot to the discussion. Since you seem to have enough of an opinion to "add" to the thread, please provide more information. If something stated here would damage a gun then please help us out. Thanks!

si...........

Huh? How do you load a DA revolver without opening the cylinder?

Anyway, in case anyone was as curious (and picky) as I am, I figured this all out when my 28-2 arrived today. If I visually align the bottom-most (center) chamber with the frame center, it clicks almost perfectly onto the bolt, which I first polished gently with Flitz on a Q-tip.

I have a few old S&W's and Colt's on which the turn line is absent or barely visible. That takes a lot of hand fitting. On guns produced since the 1970's such hand fitting was not evident and thus you take your chances on the dimensional tolerances of the bolt and cylinder - in vitually all cases the fit is on the tight side to insure functioning, thus the presence of the turn line.

People make way too much of turn lines. It is just silly. They shoot them before they leave the factory, so NOTHING is ever UNFIRED or UNTURNED. I would much prefer a revolver with a modest amount of shooting and proper care than one in which cylinders are removed for every cleaning, the owner was a "kitchen table gunsmith" constantly tinkering with screws, springs, strange polishes to remove carbon rings at the end of the charge holes, etc.

To me, evidence of this kind of "tender loving care" usually means a pass or a serious price reduction. Since I can see how some owner screwed up the revolver, it is a clue to what I might not see. Just shoot it and clean according to directions and do not worry about turn lines.

Registered Magnums have the grandest turn lines of all, and, on average, some of the steepest prices.

I saw an S-prefix 28-2 on GB recently and it was like new, except for the serious turn line. As if someone had only cocked it over and over for 40 years. It was painful to look at, and yet it sold for over $600.

I notice that on engraved guns -- among the most expensive, right? -- the engraver beats the bolt to the punch and just makes a line part of the design. Somebody with money cares about it.

Broken, have same issue with my model 28-2 4in. very visible turn line

There are shooters and there are collectors, same planet different worlds
. I am a shooter so I don't quite feel it, but you collectors seem to enjoy this so proceed.

OK, so granted, Im not a old timer..[but Im sure getting a lot older!!] and farly new to the gun world..

But I dont think ive seen any S&W without at least some turn line. I always thought it was a nature of the beast, and part of normal wear for a gun thats been shot. granted I HAVE seen one or two that look like the guy took a cutting wheel to and carved a line in... So maybe I have a wrong impression of what counts as a turn line.

As a example my first year K53 has been shot a LOT! Dad shot it so much that it ended up haveing to have the barrel turned and repinned, and she wears a line that is pretty faint... but still goes ALMOST to the next knotch. my other is a 19-3 that dad shot, and also carryed as a hounting sidearm. Not as much rounds through it as the Jet.. but still a well used piece, and it has a line about a 1/4 way to the next knotch, and its faint. So are these kind of marks normal for a well used smith?

To save the locking notches on revolvers that are fired rapidly double action in competition, I have adjustments made to drop the stop early, and even grind in longer ramps to ease the stop down.

That's the difference between a museum piece and a working competitiion gun: reliability is everything on the range.

I know a few S&W revolver owners who buy ordinary revolvers, shoot them, and are so obsessed with the turn line they can't talk about anything else--frankly, it's just annoying. Maybe if they actually learned more about their revolvers' design and workings?

The true museum piece collectors have their special world which I don't get involved in.

__________________
Science plus Art

Like others have said above, the turn line is perfectly normal and no matter how careful you are or how you polish the cylinder stop, some sort of a turn line will be there assuming the gun is to be shot. If a turn line is to be avoided, simply don't pull the trigger and shadow box the gun.

When I look at a Smith & Wesson revolver, the turn line is like tires wearing on a car - perfectly normal. It does not bother me in the least because I know it is supposed to be there.

I am a very picky person and OCD about gun cleaning, maintenance and performance, but I shoot all of them, and don't wax them or designate them as Safe Queens because I consider myself a Shooter first and a Collector second. All my guns are in exceptional condition for guns that are shot, but I personally don't concern myself with turn lines, cylinder face rings, slight loss of bluing on the barrels from holsters, etc.

My thought's are that if I buy a gun I am going to shoot it. Otherwise it's kind of like being married to the most beautiful woman in the world and not sleeping with her.

Just my .02 cents of course and I am sure others feel just as strongly as to why they want to keep their S&W's in pristine (appearing un-fired) condition. Like they say..... "Whatever floats your boat".

regards,
Chief38

Now that would be tough.....