So many threads about recent acquisitions start off with "this gun has zero end-shake and locks up like a bank vault."

Has anyone ever bought a used S&W that wasn't tight? I never have. I've had guns made from 1917 to the 1990s and all decades in between and none, no matter how much wear or abuse was evident, were loose.

I suppose the 44 and 41 Magnums could shoot loose if one were able to shoot them enough (I can't) but it seems most of these comments regard a 38 Special revolver of some model variation. Has anyone ever seen a 38 S&W that was "shot loose?"

__________________
No life story has happy end.

I agree Dr. Pig. I find some of the descriptive comments like that sort of humorous. Besides the 41s and 44s the only other possibility would be J-frame 357s.

__________________
Dick

There's a guy on youtube who goes by "Hickok45". He has a whole channel dedicated to shooting many different guns in his backyard range. He's an older guy, and a big S&W fan.

One of his guns is an M29-2, 8 3/8" he bought new in '73 or '74. The trigger pin finally broker this year. He claims he has about 70,000 rounds through it. There is footage of him hitting a gong at 230 yards with this gun.

Yesterday, I came across a 5 screw M&P that was loose as could be. At a glance it looked pretty nice, but the re-blue job wasn't that good. The trigger and hammer had been blued too. It was a 5" barrel and the price was low, but the old girl wasn't worth it.

By the way, my model 15 doesn't lock up all that tight, but still shoots very well.

If you are talking about shooting your hand loose from your arm, I agree. Especially with the scandium models.

__________________
Miss My Buddy crsides!!

Oh yeah, loose, out of time, ringed barrel's ect, been there done that! If you buy enough used revolver's you will have this. One of my best/worse example's of this was a sight unseen 625 Model of 1989 purchase. Holy smoke's the old owner must have shot all of the speed shooting game's and it suffered just about all of the malady's you could think of along with some home gunsmithing, it did have a good bore! With a little work it turned into one of my best shooter's. The only revolver's I've seen that lock's up like a bank vault are in time Colt's.

__________________
Stay safe people!

si----------

I saw a 38/44 that was bad loose. The biggest barrel/cyl gap I have seen.

You want bank vault, try a Freedom Arms revolver. As tight as a vault, and as strong. It gives me a visceral thrill to thumb back the hammer on my .454 and hear/feel the working of precision machinery. It's a slightly different kind of thrill when the trigger is pulled.

By the way, the very sloppiest gun I own is a Colt, an old 1878 DA. The cylinder fairly rattles on the base pin, both laterally and end to end. I put in an oversize .253 base pin from Brownell's and that helped some, but it's still pretty loose - really need one that's about .256. If the cylinder is pushed back against the recoil shield, barrel/cylinder gap is about .09. I've bought some black powder .45 Colt ammo, but I haven' tried shooting it yet. Someday....

If my Colt Trooper and Detective Special are the definition of "locks up like a bank vault," then no S&W revolver I own or have ever handled "locks up like a bank vault." But that's a function of design differences. A "factory new" S&W revolver has always been relatively "loose" compared to a Colt, and all my S&W revolvers are acceptably tight for a S&W but relatively loose when compared to my Colts.

My original 29-3 is shot pretty loose, a little out time...but it still shoots good. I recently looked at a mid 70's 29-2 that looked brand new. It barely had any indication of a turn line and no other wear of any kind. Bad thing was it is SO out of time it's bizarre!!! I have NEVER seen a revolver that bad!!!

Yep, one cylinder full of +P will do that to a k-frame S&W.

Just kidding you

I have seen brand new, old stock S&W handguns that timed poorly and had a lot of cylinder rotation slop (sideways) before they had been fired outside of the factory. I think that some fitters were just in too big a hurry when they put the guns together.

This was almost chronic in the Bangor-Punta years.

A Dallas detective (who also made excellent Gaylord style holsters) used to trade in his used snub M-19's to a local shop. I saw 2-3, all with significant endshake. I think he shot a lot...

The USAF cited looseness and other issues with their M-15 .38's when used with their Plus P ammo. They were begging for 9mm's until the M-9 was adopted. Most of the .38's had been rebuilt several times.

T-Star

I had a 629 with so much endshake, the cylinder would drag on the barrel. This gun looked like new.

Some of my S&Ws lock up very tight with little discernable rotational travel of the cylinder with the trigger pulled, others .010" .020, some even .030" of motion.

I understand the comment. I have single actions (TLA's), that when the hammer is cocked, there is no movement- none.

Tom K, sorry I should have said DA revolver. You are right those Freedom Arm's gun's do lock up!

__________________
Stay safe people!

Yep I did.

Bought a Mod 10 at a gunshow, my fault for not checking closer, draw the hammer back and the cylinder would move side to side and then unlock.

Took it back to the gunshow and sold it to some poor unsuspecting soul at a $50 profit.....

No I didn't. Just kidding.

I just broke even.

GF

The 28-2 I'm saving to buy from a friend has conisiderably more end shake than my 629-3 I've had since new and my 66-3 I bought from the original purchaser with less than 200 rounds through it.

But I plan to buy it anyway because of what it is and my friendship with its current owner.

If it shoots good as-is then great. If not then I'll put a shim it in.

I just hope I can sell off enough of these hoarded car parts out of my garage to raise the funds before the end of the year.

I've seen quite a few loose ones over the years (usually on tables at gun shows where someone hopes to lure the uneducated) but as far as everyone making the statement when they try to sell a revolver, that's one of the first questions a lot of prospective buyers ask, even when I suspect they really don't what it means or how to check for it - they've just read enough here to know it must be bad and they should ask about it . . . .

I'd say 98% or better of S&W's I've seen that were made after 1950 have been pretty tight guns. YMMV

I Have a 29-2 I bought new in 1980 that has seen a lot of use, been back to the factory and overhauled and refinished twice, once with a broken trigger stud and the other time it went way out of time, I'm not really sure what the problem was. It does have some end shake now so I keep it for light to mid-range loads.

Seen several over the years. A friend's 66 was pretty loose. The general
consensus back then was that the 19 was more durable than the 66.
I have a 38-44 that was a bit loose until I replaced the hand and cyl.
locking bolt.

I have seen several over the years, but they are the exception rather then the rule. End shake is one of the first things I check in a gun I am considering. It is rare to find an issue, but when you do...time to move down the row.

__________________
Dave

Why would a 66 be more fragile than a 19? Generally stainless is tougher than carbon steel and otherwise the two are identical.

__________________
No life story has happy end.

It is my understanding that they do have different characteristics. Stainless steels do tend to be tougher, as far as machining goes. But resistance to cutting is only one aspect of durability. Ad to that, there isn't one specific stainless steel alloy, but many. Just like carbon steel.

If you remember when stainless 1911's first came out (the AMT Hardballer was the first I had, but there may have been others before that), there was a real issue with galling, The frame rails and the slide rails would try to adhere to one another as they moved in the cycle. The result was the creation of little shallow divots. We tried all sorts of different lubes (including Crisco), but the problem was with that stainless steel alloy.

I have several stainless steel S&W revolvers and I note that all of them have carbon steel internals. I believe that there have been some revolvers made with stainless internal parts; the collectors and historians would know better than me. But I suspect there is a reason for that. Cost may be one, but I also suspect that there are performance issues as well.

FWIW

Charles

It's my understanding that to eliminate the galling in 100% stainless firearms they varied the composition of the alloy of any moving parts that rubbed together. Although all my newer stainless firearm do have carbon steel innards.

I had to send this 17-no dash back to S&W for excessive end shake ---- but I had shot it for nearly 40 years.



This 60-1 was what I'd call loose (play in the cylinder) the day it left the factory --- but it's accurate as can be so I decided to leave good enough alone.

Stainless and carbon steel are far from identical. Remember,
steel is machined before heat treating. Stainless is very hard
to machine; doesn't cut cleanly and gets very hot. Carbon
steel can be heat treated to provide great strength and wear
resistance. Many years ago a gun shop owner told me that
the md 60 would get loose faster than a md 36 when fired
with hot loads. He said he tested both with a file inside the
grip frame and that the 36 steel was harder. He even insisted
that he had seen 60s damaged by the old hot Super Vel 38 sp
loads but never seen this in a 36.

Pass the salt shaker...

Earlier this year I bought a 1938 vintage 38/44 HD from one of the internet gun auctions. It was described as well used and it was. Some end shake and pretty bad timing but very smooth from years of use. No "bank vault" in this instance.

My gunsmith has it fixed and tuned up. I'm looking forward to getting it back and putting it through its paces.

Dave

__________________
RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

My previous carry gun, a 3" 65-3 has had a cornucopia of rounds as well as IWB duty for over a dozen years. All kinds of wiggle in every direction. Deadly accurate and 100% reliable. Don't see a problem. Joe

__________________
Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

Well, I have seen a ton of S&Ws (including .38s) that needed mechanical attention, if that is what you mean - and not all of them used. I have a few of them in my safe that I could pull out for demonstration.

As Pharmer says, most of them still shoot pretty well, though you continue the process of battering them to death at an accelerated pace as you do so.

As for the old "locks up like a bank vault" line, I realize the statement is literally theatrical in nature, but my experience is that, given the geometry and tolerances involved, it is a poor choice for a play on words not meant to be humorous.

I have handled at least one Ruger Security Six that had, for me, that "welded to the frame" lock up- of course the seller (gun show) seemed to know what he had, and was asking about twice the going rate for the gun.

I have currently an old Colt "Army Special" that locks up nicely- although I don't shoot that gun- too old for me to be comfortable shooting it (1916 date of origin) and it will probably be for sale soon-

I haven't actually seen this process; how involved is the repair job of putting shims into a S&W to tighten it up and remove the end shake? Anyone have pictures or reference to a website that does?

Thanks!

I have not, but I've turned down lots of used S&W's that were sloppy. The most recent one was a 7-shot .357 mag Mountain Gun at a pawn show in Kernersville, NC. Way too much cylinder movement in every direction with the hammer lowered. As to S&W in general, it varies greatly by gun, and not necessarily because of use. My M38-2 and 625-6 do literally lock up like a vault, but none of my other Smiths do.

Slyk54,

Installing shim washers to correct excessive endshake is simplicity itself. It is actually an expedient alternative to the more traditional yoke stretching and refitting of the cylinder on the yoke.

The shims are washers in assorted sizes, nominally 0.002" inch each. You install them by removing the crane retaining screw, removing the crane and cylinder assembly, and removing the cylinder. The shims go into the cylinder center hole to take up the excessive endshake, and you reassemble.

The point of this action is to restore the cartridge head-to-recoil shield clearance and the barrel-to-cylinder gap to specifications, and thus minimize the cylinder endshake.

Well, Last year I bought a (1958 and very used) M-17 on gunbroker that is really loose. Lots of endshake and spits from a couple of chambers. The gun was filthy when I got it and after the first cleaning the extractor fell off the rod...I really need to get it to David Chicone to fix it.

I just bought a 1967 vintage 15-2 a couple of days ago and it's not super tight but OK in my book. Not much endshake, but the lock up isn't nearly as tight as my 1968 M-36. That one is a 1968 model that I inherited that has less than 200 rounds on it.

I paid $350 each for the two Ks. The 17 does have the original target grips though and is incredibly accurate.

i have seen more than a few of the 625's made in the late 80's that had excessive crane to frame slop brand factory new.

Yes. I came across a 19-5 at a local gunshop about a year ago and ran it through the list of things you do. Cylinder was loose front to back upon full lock up.
Waited 6 months and found a 19-2 that was much better.

So yes, conditions do vary, and holding out for what you deem to be acceptable is worth it.

I suppose the definition of loose is subjective. I've bought brand new Smiths, particularly during the late 70's-early 80's that would qualify as loose straight from the factory. If you find that gun used now, it would be just as loose, if not more so. Usually I fix them myself with an oversized hand and just stretching the yoke a little. Most of them worked well enough and, would likely continue to serve without any tinkering.

In all honesty, though, I have rarely found a Smith that truly locks up like a bank vault. The repair guys, at armorers school would get mad at you if you built them up too tight. A well fitted Python or Diamondback, truly locks up like a bank vault, at full lock up, the cylinder feels like it is welded to the frame. I have a mint Colt 1917 that locks up like that. But Smith and Wessons? Not really.

People on Gun Forums "tend" to read alot first and then include the "good stuff" when selling or describing guns of their own. I've been shooting handguns for almost 25 years and last week Ken Kelly of Mag-Na-Port finally explained to me what "end-shake" actually was. (Thank you Ken)...Why did it take so long to understand the term? Easy...I never had a gun that gave me any problems and I didn't need to know what it meant. About a year ago, I began to notice that nearly every revolver listed in the Classifieds carried with it the assurance that they were tight as a drum and had no end shake....Now I can be assured that no matter what the mutt might suffer from..it sure won't be "end shake" Zeb