.357 Magnum 158 gr velocity

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Doug.38PR

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As I read my reloading manuel...I was surprised to see that the maximum load for 158 gr lead bullet only takes it between 950-1040 ft per second.

Larry Vickers and Magnum Revolvers - YouTube Larry Vickers in this video describes the .357 Magnum as launching a 158 Gr bullet at "nearly 1500 ft per second" which was "twice that of the .38 special."

If that's true...why are my reloading manuels recommending caution with such a weak load?

Seriously, 950-1000 ft per second to me sounds more like high end +P territory....
 
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Some manufacturers publish data with velocity as the limiting factor, not pressure. This is to prevent leading for people who don't know how to manage it. A 158gr lead bullet of proper size and hardness can be pushed a lot faster than 1040fps in 357 Magnum.
 
I use WIN 296/H110 under hard lead bullets in .357, and they are going much faster than whatever manual you are using. You need a different book. Looked at Lyman?
 
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I have the Sierra Manual open in front of me. It quotes the 158 grain JHC and JSP at 1250 fps with Blue Dot, 2400, H110, and 296.
 
I'm looking at a Speer Manuel and a Hornandy Manuel. Unique, the powder I have right now, only goes up to 1040 ft per second.

2400 powder suggests 1265 ft per second in the Speer Manuel

Hornandy manuel suggest maximum of 5.0 gr of Unique powder for 950 ft per second MAX!!
Speer manuel suggets 6.0 of Unique at 1034 ft per second Max (though it says loads do not reach maximum pressure)
This is out of a 6 inch barrel.

I mean REALLY, Buffalo Bore in .38 Special +P 158 gr approaches 1200 ft per second out of a 4 inch barrel
 
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357 loads have been toned down significantly over the last 30 years or so. IIRC the old pressure standard was about 46,000 CUP, these days most loads max out at about 35K. Barrel length and powder burn rate also make a lot of difference, faster powders achieve peak pressure far sooner, thus limiting their potential. A longer, flatter pressure curve accelerates the bullet more evenly, allowing more velocity to build.

What I will never understand is all the manuals that show a barrel length of seven or ten inches in the "Pistol Loads" section. :(
 
papajohn428 said:
What I will never understand is all the manuals that show a barrel length of seven or ten inches in the "Pistol Loads" section. :(
Click to expand...

Hodgdon is really bad about that. Most of their pistol data seems to be developed in a 10" pressure barrel, even though most reloaders will be shooting their loads out of a 4-6" revolver. They still list good data on their website, but the velocity columns are highly exaggerated.
 
papajohn428 said:
357 loads have been toned down significantly over the last 30 years or so. IIRC the old pressure standard was about 46,000 CUP, these days most loads max out at about 35K.

(
Click to expand...

WHY?! Was it because the K and eventually J frame revolvers started being chambered in .357 Magnum? Whereas for the first years of it's existance it was on an N frame only?

Would using old (50 year old) Unique loading data be safe to use with todays Unique powder? (I take it there is a reason loading manuel's are updated every so often)

If some of you haven't gathered, I am new to the world of reloading.

I have a Highway Patrolman 6 inch from 1977 I would love to use to it's full potential. These loads sound kinda weak though
 
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Doug.38PR said:
I'm looking at a Speer Manuel and a Hornandy Manuel. Unique, the powder I have right now, only goes up to 1040 ft per second.

2400 powder suggests 1265 ft per second in the Speer Manuel

Hornandy manuel suggest maximum of 5.0 gr of Unique powder for 950 ft per second MAX!!
Speer manuel suggets 6.0 of Unique at 1034 ft per second Max (though it says loads do not reach maximum pressure)
This is out of a 6 inch barrel.

I mean REALLY, Buffalo Bore in .38 Special +P 158 gr approaches 1200 ft per second out of a 4 inch barrel
Click to expand...

Unique is a great powder for medium velocity loads. It's burn rate is too fast for maximum velocity Magnum loads. 2400, W-W296, & H110 work well for max velocity loads. I've had particullary good results with large doses of 296 & Magnum primers. Max loads of 296 shoot really small groups for me, & zip along with authority.
 
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Broker50 has it right. The limitations you are running up against are largely due to your powder choice. A slower powder like 2400 or W296 is capable of producing higher velocities. Unique is an excellent powder and a staple on many reloading benches. But it is not the correct powder choice for high velocity 357 Mag loads. You didn't say which loading manual you are using. Many of them have excellent articles in the front sections regarding powder choices and how burn rate can affect velocity and pressure.

Edit: BTW there is an excellent Reloading section on this forum where some very experienced reloading experts post. This question may draw more responses if asked in that section.
 
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No.... The load listed is because of the lead bullet. Pushing lead/unjacketed bullets out the barrel at over 1000 fps tends to leave copius lead melted in the barrel, fouling it. Jackets bullets can be pushed much more....
 
isn't leading something to deal with with in any event when shooting lead?
The original .357 Magnum cartridge was loaded with a Lead 158 gr semi wadcutter bullet and it was bragged to be around 1400-1500 ft per second.
Remington used to have just that on their ammo list available (I just checked midway and don't find it anymore)

Buffalo Bore sells the 180 Gr Heavy .357 Magnum that is a flat nosed lead bullet....and that thing goes like 1300 ft per second http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100
And those things are HOT! I shot one out of a Ruger Security Six with regular magna service grips...and the recoil was so harsh the hammer spur kicked back and cut into the webbing of my hand...drawing a little blood too


NOTE TO MODERATOR: Could this thread be moved to the reloading section as suggested a few posts back?
 
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Doug, not all "lead" bullets are equal. Both Speer and Hornady sell swaged lead bullets and list them in their load data. Swaged bullets are made of very soft lead wire, squeezed into a bullet shape by a die. These swaged bullets lead easily and badly so they aren't usually loaded to anything close to the velocities jacketed or hard cast lead bullets can be pushed to.

Dave
 
I like Oregon Trail Laser-Cast. You can find even better quality hard cast bullets, but the Laser-Cast are reasonably priced and readily available.
 
Doug.38PR said:
what are the better quality lead bullets?
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More a matter of hardness than quality. For low velocity target loads you want a softer lead that will seal the bore at lower pressures. For higher pressures you want harder lead. Either will lead your barrel under the right conditions.

Missouri Bullets has some good info on their website. I'm not affiliated, etc. They have a pretty steller reputation for quality & service in the reloading world.
 
Thanks for all the info. I am in the earliest stages of starting to reload. I'm looking at an RCBS starter kit, or maybe a Lee press, and getting some books. I'm not anywhere close to where you all are yet...
 
Dave T said:
Doug, not all "lead" bullets are equal. Both Speer and Hornady sell swaged lead bullets and list them in their load data. Swaged bullets are made of very soft lead wire, squeezed into a bullet shape by a die. These swaged bullets lead easily and badly so they aren't usually loaded to anything close to the velocities jacketed or hard cast lead bullets can be pushed to.

Dave
Click to expand...

This is the most pertinent answer. I'll only add to it by saying, if you look in data manuals for lead bullet loads by the companies who sell these dead soft bullets, you'll only find low-velocity loads. (They aren't going to publish otherwise-safe loads which make their bullets look bad by creating a barrel-leading situation from high velocities/pressures.)

These super-soft bullets are useful as target bullets (148gr HBWCs) or 38 Spl. defense bullets (158gr SWC-HPs), both situations where pressures and velocities are low. Otherwise they should generally be avoided if your goal requires higher velocity/pressure.

If you want good data for hard-cast lead bullets, get a Lyman manual (#49 or so-whatever their newest one is).

Personally, I don't find any need for super-velocity loads. I shoot 146gr-162gr cast lead bullets, and for the most part stick to 1200-1350fps loads.

It helps if one starts off by matching their intended use/target to the shape/form and alloy of the lead bullet. Then choose the velocity/pressure that is appropriate to that alloy.

We've been misinformed about power and purpose of velocity, and it leads people (including me until the last 5 years or so) astray. The fact is pistol bullets bleed velocity rapidly, so other than providing enough energy to cause HP expansion and flat enough trajectory to hit the target, we shouldn't "chase" velocity. Bullet form and penetration are bigger overall factors.
 
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