|
|
09-25-2011, 05:33 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
|
|
Is this normal leading?
I have a model 14 that I wanted to shoot 158gr bullets in. The pistol I have was a safe queen and these are the first shots through it as far as I can tell.
I loaded up three groups of 10 rounds each.
First 10 rounds were Zero 158 gr LRN with 3.6 Titegroup.
After I shot those I brought the pistol in and put a couple wet patches through it. I saw no problems with lead inside or out.
Then for the next 10 shots I loaded the same but with 3.1 Bullseye. After I shot those rounds I noticed the lead on the outside front of the cylinder. I didn't have any lead in the barrel to speak of. I could not get this lead off the outside of the cylinder.
For the last group of 10 I loaded 3.4 Titegroup. The lead was still on the pistol and I can't say that it got any worse after the last rounds.
Every cylinder has about the same size spots of lead on the front of the sides. This is what is really bothering me.
So I have two questions.
Isn't this leading a bit excessive?
And what's the best way to clean the lead off the outside of the gun without harming the blue? I tried scratching back and forth with my fingernail, but that's not going to do it.
Last edited by wannabe; 09-25-2011 at 05:49 PM.
|
09-25-2011, 06:03 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,063
Likes: 310
Liked 405 Times in 105 Posts
|
|
That's pretty normal. If your bullets are swaged and your powder charges are top loads you will get leading. If that is the case, you can slow your bullet down or switch to hard cast bullets.
|
09-25-2011, 06:42 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 336
Likes: 9
Liked 312 Times in 125 Posts
|
|
Looks about right for lead bullets.
What you're getting is one reason I have totally gone to stainless pistols whenever a stainless version is available, and when reloading, I use jacketed bullets in all my .357 as well as loading at the lower end of the tables.
With the jacketed bullets in light loads, my revolvers shoot accurately, are a pleasure to shoot, and I don't have to trash the bluing on my blued revolvers in order to get them clean.
|
09-25-2011, 09:09 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western, PA
Posts: 545
Likes: 4
Liked 1,003 Times in 223 Posts
|
|
Before I started reloading, I once shot a box of factory winchester 158gr RN lead through my 60-4. When I was done, the inside of the barrel, down its entire length, looked like alligator skin from the lead. Lucky for me it was a stainless gun. I spent most of an evening and half a sheet of lead removal cloth to clean the thing out. I dont know if the cases were loaded for jacketed bullets and lead RN were put in or what, but they sure made a mess. That is when I learned what barrel leading really was.
|
09-25-2011, 09:25 PM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: R.T. P, area NC
Posts: 9,732
Likes: 29,684
Liked 23,066 Times in 5,801 Posts
|
|
Hi and welcome to the forum.
As much as I hate to be odd man out here, IMHO that amount of leading is not normal. I shoot a fair amount of lead ammo and I’ve never had or seen that much build up, especially on the top strap and the forcing cone. I have never seen leading on the outside of the cylinder. The fouling is normal but not the amount of leading. How does the barrel look?
__________________
Always Stay Strong!
|
09-25-2011, 09:46 PM
|
Banned
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
|
|
I will not use Titegroup in any of my firearms. One reason is that it has NILL in the case and burns hotter than other powders that do the same work but do it better. Switch to Bullseye or W231/HP-38 and see if your problem doesn't go away.
I could be wrong, but, I have never had that kind of leading on the outside of the cylinder, ever.
FWIW
|
09-25-2011, 09:53 PM
|
|
Moderator
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 4,552
Likes: 931
Liked 3,590 Times in 816 Posts
|
|
I'm with old bear, I believe that to be excessive leading. I would tone your charges down or switch powders or bullets. Cleaning up that mess can be done, but go easy and don't worry about getting it all the first time. I leaded up my Model 14 pretty bad and got the lead off the outside of the cylinder and top strap by saoking the gun in Ed's Red overnight and using a scraper made from a heavy gauge copper wire. I tweaked my loads to stop leading and the lead on the cylinder face eventually wore off after a lot of shooting a few regular cleanings.
__________________
Regards,
Guy-Harold Smith II
Last edited by Smith357; 09-25-2011 at 09:56 PM.
|
09-25-2011, 10:16 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Watkinsville, GA
Posts: 1,843
Likes: 0
Liked 180 Times in 73 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by old bear
Hi and welcome to the forum.
As much as I hate to be odd man out here, IMHO that amount of leading is not normal. I shoot a fair amount of lead ammo and I’ve never had or seen that much build up, especially on the top strap and the forcing cone. I have never seen leading on the outside of the cylinder. The fouling is normal but not the amount of leading. How does the barrel look?
|
beat me to it, I have never seen leading on the OUTSIDE of any of my revolver cylinders...seems like an awful lotta leading to me...
|
09-25-2011, 10:39 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Warrensburg, MO USA
Posts: 5,420
Likes: 2,892
Liked 3,354 Times in 1,708 Posts
|
|
It appears to me there is lead buildup on just a part of the forcing cone. That could mean the timing is not quite right or that the cylinder charge holes to not line up well with the barrel. I shoot a lot of lead bullets and do not remember having that much lead on the cylinder.
__________________
Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102
Last edited by Nightowl; 09-25-2011 at 10:40 PM.
Reason: added comment
|
09-26-2011, 12:58 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 1,450
Likes: 0
Liked 40 Times in 25 Posts
|
|
Here's a possibility that no one's considering. It may not be lead at all, but carbon deposits. Carbon deposits look exactly like the deposits in the photos. You'll know if it's carbon by gently probing one of those deposits with a dental pick. If the deposit breaks down into a black, crumbly substance, then it's carbon.
If so, that could very much be a function of the powder you're using. Even with commercial ammo, some varieties produce more carbon than others. My 625, for example, will very quickly build up carbon deposits just inside the forcing cone with certain commercial rounds. Other makers' rounds cause it no problems at all.
|
09-26-2011, 04:45 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 17,858
Likes: 7,868
Liked 25,829 Times in 8,731 Posts
|
|
Had you stated that you fired 100 + rounds I would say the leading on you gun looks heavy, but normal. For a string of 30 rounds, I would say that is a bit on the heavy side. Check the B/C Gap and see if it is larger than normal. I usually like them to be no more than .006". You can also get a Range Rod and check the barrel cylinder alignment to make sure you are not "shaving" lead.
Chief38
|
09-26-2011, 02:39 PM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Central IL
Posts: 22,829
Likes: 18,651
Liked 22,475 Times in 8,295 Posts
|
|
Switching to a hard cast bullet will reduce the leading to near nothing. I wouldn't continue to load Titegroup as it does burn hotter, and can actually melt the base of the bullet as it leaves the case if loaded hot enough. 3.4 gr though is a relatively mild load.
__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244
|
09-26-2011, 03:41 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Back in Kentucky!!!
Posts: 465
Likes: 347
Liked 122 Times in 49 Posts
|
|
Lead down the barrel is one thing, but you've got lead in places it shouldn't be. I think something is outta whack. How loose is your cylinder bolt/stop fit? Does it lock up relatively tight, or can the cylinder still rotate a bit with the hammer cocked?
|
09-26-2011, 04:05 PM
|
Banned
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
|
|
Okay, here are some pictures of my M25 -7 after I shot today. This is after over 100 rounds of a home cast bullet, H&G #502 (wheel weights) sized to .452" and lubed with White Label Lube's Carnuba Red lube, sitting atop 9.2gr of a surplus Unique powder.
If you know anything about reloading, Unique is one of the reasons folks run for the "cleanest" burning powders. And, yes, the gun is filthy. I will have to clean it at some point anyway!
Pictures of it dirty, right after shooting:
I took a dry towel/rag that I had in my shooting bag and wiped it down. No special attention payed to any certain area. No lube or cleaner of any kind. The rag is dirty now and so were my hands but, again, I have to wash anyway so....... Okay, here you go:
Now, powder type matters. Bullet size, or rather fit in your firearm, matters. There is NO lead down the barrel, period. This load pushed the 240gr LSWC at just over 1000fps from this firearm. Accurate enough to hit a chunk of 6X6 @ 50 yards every time.
Check out the reloading area of the forum and ask some questions there. I'll bet you find some more information there.
Hope this helps!
|
09-27-2011, 06:37 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
|
|
Well... I'm starting to think it's a gun problem.
I went out last night and shot 5 rounds using Missouri 158 SWC with a brinell rating of 18 and 3.3 Titegroup (instead of the softer Zero swagged bullets) and every shot gave me lead on the outside of the cylinder.
I shoot these same bullets in my 586 with no problems at all using a 357 case and 14.80 of 2400.
Tonight I shot one round with the same bullet using 2.7 Bullseye and I got just as much lead on my cylinder.
Now a couple things. I checked the cylinder to barrel gap with a filler gauge and I have .005 on the right and .010 on the left side.
The lead is coming out of the top of the gap and then splattering back down on top of the cylinder.
Before I ever shot this pistol I had my gunsmith drill and tap it for a scope mount. The front hole of the three is located directly above the gap. It doesn't have a screw in it because I'm now shooting the pistol with the original open rear sight.
That lead shooting out of the gap must be going up into the hole and coming straight back down on top of the cylinder.
Still should this much lead be coming out of the gap?
2.7 Bullseye shouldn't be hot at all.
I was able to clean the lead off with some Fitz metal polish and a cotton swab, but it's starting to remove the blue.
Again this was a new pistol as far as I could tell.
|
09-27-2011, 06:49 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Back in Kentucky!!!
Posts: 465
Likes: 347
Liked 122 Times in 49 Posts
|
|
It should be .005" all the way around. If you can find a good pistolsmith (one that actually does work on S&W Revolvers, not just a general gunsmith), he can take off the barrel, and turn it down and set it back a thread, and square up the breechface to the proper distance.
Last edited by Stophel; 09-27-2011 at 06:52 PM.
|
09-27-2011, 07:59 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Twangtown
Posts: 585
Likes: 80
Liked 200 Times in 67 Posts
|
|
wannabe,
Is it spitting? As mentioned, it could be a timing problem as well as a gap inconsistency. You may get by on the gap by just squaring-off the forcing cone if you can live with (I can) the .010 gap.
If it is new, call Springfield, get the shipping label include the pics, and ask them to bring it up to spec.
Mike
|
09-27-2011, 08:38 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
|
|
I think it's time I contact Smith & Wesson and see what they can do.
Thanks for the help everyone.
|
09-29-2011, 08:50 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: North Central, Indiana
Posts: 255
Likes: 45
Liked 53 Times in 28 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe
Well... I'm starting to think it's a gun problem.
I went out last night and shot 5 rounds using Missouri 158 SWC with a brinell rating of 18 and 3.3 Titegroup (instead of the softer Zero swagged bullets) and every shot gave me lead on the outside of the cylinder.
I shoot these same bullets in my 586 with no problems at all using a 357 case and 14.80 of 2400.
Tonight I shot one round with the same bullet using 2.7 Bullseye and I got just as much lead on my cylinder.
Now a couple things. I checked the cylinder to barrel gap with a filler gauge and I have .005 on the right and .010 on the left side.
The lead is coming out of the top of the gap and then splattering back down on top of the cylinder.
Before I ever shot this pistol I had my gunsmith drill and tap it for a scope mount. The front hole of the three is located directly above the gap. It doesn't have a screw in it because I'm now shooting the pistol with the original open rear sight.
That lead shooting out of the gap must be going up into the hole and coming straight back down on top of the cylinder.
Still should this much lead be coming out of the gap?
2.7 Bullseye shouldn't be hot at all.
I was able to clean the lead off with some Fitz metal polish and a cotton swab, but it's starting to remove the blue.
Again this was a new pistol as far as I could tell.
|
I've got a 14-4 that I use for bullseye distinguished revolver competition. What your showing is exactly what my gun does. I shoot Zero/Magnus swaged 158 swc bullets above 3.1 gr. Bullseye. I've tested upwards of 3.5 gr. Bullseye without any issues. Your load isn't excessive but I've also wondered if my cylinder throat to bullet diameter is correct. Maybe it should be smaller or larger?
Yourself along with everyone else who reads this will probably think I'm ridiculous, but I haven't cleaned my gun for at least 1500 rounds. If I think about it later I'll post a picture. But, the leading will take me a couple days to get off once the cleaning process starts. I use Shooter's Choice lead remover along with a Pro Shot metal care cloth.
If you find a solution, that doesn't kill accuracy, I'd love to hear it.
|
09-29-2011, 12:23 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Phenix City, Al.
Posts: 621
Likes: 1
Liked 103 Times in 57 Posts
|
|
I shoot mainly cast bullets and a varied assortment of powders. I have noticed from times past that I would have a very thin line of deposits on the outside of the cylinder at the very front edge. I believe that is due to a variety of problems, a lot of them discussed here. I believe the OP may be on to sopmething about that extra screw in the top strap. In looking at his pictures, the screw appears to be in the middle of the fouling slot in the underside of the top strap and if you look at the outside of the cylinder, the deposit appears concentrated in the center of that chamber and is a half a circle, almost like half of the screwhole over the forward end of the cylinder.. Hummmm ? I believe the fouling is getting concentrated in that area due to the gases being deflected by that hole and sent straight back on the cylinder, instead of being distributed to the sides as would be normally the case.
Possibly one way to tell is to take a filler screw and put in that hole flush with the bottom of the top strap and shoot it with either the sight on it or not. If you get the same results, then off to Smith. If not, keep the screw in place and mount the sight leaf and keep on truckin. Keep us updated on this interesting situation and good luck.
Bob
Last edited by 50 target; 09-29-2011 at 12:27 PM.
|
09-29-2011, 01:43 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Twin Cites, Minnesota
Posts: 5,160
Likes: 11,014
Liked 10,898 Times in 3,284 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe
...I was able to clean the lead off with some Fitz metal polish and a cotton swab, but it's starting to remove the blue...
|
Keep the Flitz away from any blued gun, same with a dental pick. If you need to scrape lead or carbon fouling, use Hoppe's (or similar) and a short length of heavy copper wire flattened on one end. If that won't remove what needs to be removed, leave it.
|
09-29-2011, 03:40 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,969
Likes: 256
Liked 1,383 Times in 522 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by smith crazy
I will not use Titegroup in any of my firearms. One reason is that it has NILL in the case and burns hotter than other powders that do the same work but do it better. Switch to Bullseye or W231/HP-38 and see if your problem doesn't go away.
I could be wrong, but, I have never had that kind of leading on the outside of the cylinder, ever.
FWIW
|
I use BE and W231/HP-38 and agree. I also load in the "middle ranges" using HBWC, DEWC, and SWC. Never saw that kind of leading, not even close.
|
09-29-2011, 04:22 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,676
Likes: 1,769
Liked 3,702 Times in 1,242 Posts
|
|
I shoot a lot of commercial cast bullets and usually had a little lead when using 231, Bullseye or Unique. A reloading "expert" at the LGS convinced me to try TiteGroup in place of those powders. It DID burn cleaner, however every single gun, revolver or auto that I used the cast/TiteGroup combo's in leaded up like an old water pipe!! I switched back to the "dirty" Unique. Soot is better than leading any day. -Anybody want 1.5 lbs of TiteGroup?
|
09-29-2011, 04:58 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 2,260
Likes: 2
Liked 117 Times in 85 Posts
|
|
Particualrly true if you are using lead bullets at over ca 900 fps or are using some hot burning powders like Titegroup.
|
09-29-2011, 07:02 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2010
Location: TN
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 27
Liked 284 Times in 131 Posts
|
|
I've never seen leading on the outside of the cylinder and I've shot 45 Colt, 357, 44 Magnum and 45 ACP for years using my own cast bullets usually ww's plus a bit of tin or 50/50 lead to Linotype. Harder won't mean less leading. If the bullet is matched to the cylinder throats or .001 over and you match the load to the chamber pressure you should not get that kind of leading. Something's awry when a revolver spits lead on the outside of the cylinder.
|
|
Tags
|
44 magnum, 45acp, 586, bullseye, chamber pressure, colt, commercial, fitz, fouling, gunsmith, lock, model 14, model 25, model 625, nill, scope, springfield, winchester |
Posting Rules
|
|
|
|
Similar Threads
|
Thread |
Thread Starter |
Forum |
Replies |
Last Post |
Hi Tek Leading. Help!
|
Ditchdigger |
Reloading |
22 |
03-25-2016 08:46 PM |
617 leading
|
Wild Tom Hickok |
S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present |
4 |
04-11-2012 03:49 PM |
Leading in a 629
|
bronco45 |
S&W-Smithing |
12 |
04-11-2012 12:22 AM |
625 Leading
|
coat |
Reloading |
31 |
01-12-2012 06:33 PM |
What? No leading?
|
Skip Sackett |
Reloading |
26 |
12-27-2011 07:38 PM |
|