This has happened to me a few times over the past 2 or 3 years, and I wonder if I am alone............

Once in a while one of my friends and/or Club Members who have never shot or owned a hand gun before has come up to me to find out what type of gun to buy as a first purchase when they get their Permit. I have spent hours & hours discussing all the pros & cons of different calibers, different brands, designs, Auto vs Revolver, etc. etc. I have gotten phone calls at weird hours when they see a gun for sale and they need advise, and I have ALWAYS been more than willing to give them the scoop on each individual gun they have questions about. It makes me feel good too, so I am happy to pass the knowledge along.

I will usually suggest that they buy a used S&W Revolver (pre 1994) such as a M17, 18, 15, 19, 66, or similar so that they can learn the basics of good shooting without all the complicated controls, buttons, and nuances of Auto Loaders. I suggest that they stick to either a .22 or .38 because the ammo is reasonable and plentiful, recoil is very mild, and they are simple guns to learn and master quickly. The best part is that I tell them if a year from now it turns out you can carry, shoot and feel comfortable with a Glock, Sig, or whatever other gun they like, then they can sell their original revolver if they so desire and probably break even or even make a slight profit.

Then a week or so later, I get a call from them that they got their Permit and bought their first handgun. They are all exited and so I will say.......
so did yo get the .22 or the .38? Their response.....Oh no, I didn't buy one of those used - old fashioned guns, the guy in the gun store sold me a Mini 9mm Rohrbar Auto Pocket Pistol, or a Kimber .45 acp slicked up carry gun or a Taurus Judge! As my blood pressure rises, I just listen to them jump with joy and excitement, and I say "oh, enjoy it". Then they will come down to the Range with me and they are quite surprised when they can not hit the paper at 30 feet. Gee, what a surprise!

This same person then came to me about a home defense shotgun and I just gave them this answer: Hmmmm, not really familiar with Shotguns so I can't help you much. So then he spoke to one of my other friends, and he was surprised at what I had said. His answer was.........WHAT, Bob (me) knows quite a bit about Shotguns, I can't believe he told you he was not familiar with them. Heck, he just fixed my A-5 last month! I won't boar you with the rest of this Soap Opera, but I'm sure you get the picture here.

Has this happened to any of you guys or am I just "lucky"? I am the type of person that is ALWAYS willing to help out, but I am getting a little tired of Pi**ing in the wind! Any similar experiences??

Regards

Chief38

I have had the same results from just conversation. The salesman is always going to sell what he has in stock.
I have had more impact by taking the novice to the range and providing some basic instruction with a wide sample of weapon types and caliber. They can expeience each system and make a decision based on experience.
gaf

Ah, there's some of them kids will git smarter in time. Hell, even I did...

It has always been my experience that when people ask for advice they are really trying to confirm in their own mind what they have already decided. Just my opinion . . .

Tom

Chief, you did your job by giving sound advice based on the wisdom that comes from experience. I have found that in similar situations, I need to give up my attachment to the idea that fools should take my advice.

__________________
SW40VE Sigma
Ruger SR9c

"You can lead a horse to water...."

At least you tried.

But, "You can hold him there 'til he gets thirsty"

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Dick

And what the Counter Guy wants to sell them!

In my circle I'm the Go-To GunGuy,I'm constantly ask these questions and I'll always give my humble opinions and thoughts.
Everytime a new purchase has been made it's almost always what the Counter Guy has suggested!

I was a photojournalist for 20 years. As a photojournalist I had to take GOOD photographs in all kinds of situations and locations, often in poor lighting conditions. People would ask me many photography related questions, however the most common was "What kind/speed film should I use for trip to..." I shot 10 to 30 rolls of film per week and knew what actually worked back then. I would tell people what would not let them down. 400 Speed Kodak or Fuji print film. Great in any light and still capable of big, sharp prints. (Digital has made the film questions moot)

Invariably, so and so would come back from vacation and be very disappointed that their photos were all blurry or horribly under-exposed. I'd ask to look at the negatives. Did they use the film I recommended-NEVER . Nine out of ten would buy 100 speed film, even off-brand 100 speed. Why? Consumer Reports said that's all I'd need. Jeeze-big difference between controlled lab conditions and the real world.

Same thing happens with gun advice. My wife and I shoot a decent amount. We happen to agree on beginner carry weapons. We both suggest a novice start with a used .38 special revolver. Do they ever listen-NOPE. They all get talked into a Kel-Tec or Ruger LCP or some other tiny, hard to hit with pocket auto that jams like crazy because they won't spend the money on enough ammo to break it in.

I actually recall only two cases. In the first, when I was in my late twenties and running a very limited firearms instruction program for my command, a student and friend of mine asked for advice on buying a revolver. Its purpose was to help protect its owner, who, like I, was stationed in the District of Columbia. I do not remember the exact advice, but I am sure it was very biased towards S&W. I was very disappointed when he bought a new Colt Cobra, but didn't show it. It was only years later that I realized that, most likely, HE was right and I was wrong, for his use.

The other case was quite a few years later, when an older couple asked for advice on a HD shotgun and a HD revolver. I may not have been as dogmatic about the S&W recommendation, but I'm sure that a K-frame .357 was what I recommended. Since they were intelligent people capable of understanding mechanical devices, and weren't short of cash, I recommended a good autolading shotgun, feeling that a good auto was more reliable than a pump that could easily be short-stroked by an older person who wasn't using the gun regularly. They bought a Taurus and a pump. I was invited to their new residence (the wife had gained new employment elsewhere in the meantime) to go shooting with them for their first time. There was nothing wrong with the Taurus, although I heard then or later that the wife's son, who was also a gun nut, disapproved of the choice on the same grounds that I did (failure to be born in Springfield). The pump, I forget the brand, sure enough turned out to be unreliable in the owner's hands. I think it even had an actual problem. Our little shooting session concentrated on the revolver. I never said anything (didn't have to - the evidence was in front of us), but I mostly did wonder why they had bothered asking. But I couldn't get very self-righteous about it, remembering that the earlier fellow had ignored some of my advice and probably done quite well for himself.

Yes, I get the same questions. Just recently a young man who had been shooting some and had his guns stolen was replacing them. He did buy a 586 for himself, but for a present for his father (for Christmas) bought a Rossi .357. Now I am not familiar with this particular gun, but I know the quality is no where near as good as a S&W. I don't want to hurt his feelings, but did comment, "Why don't you get your dad a twin of what you got for yourself"?

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I have recommended to a couple women that were new to shooting and getting CCW's to go with a .32magnum revolver. One took my advice and got the J frame S&W, the other two ended up with autolaoders recommended by the CCW instructor who happened to own the gun store.

The J frame purchaser is very happy, shooting longs for practice and magnums for carry. The two that ended up with 9mms not so happy. I don't bother much anymore.

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Jim
Many K and N Frames

Frustrating, I know, but it could be worse. They could be buying whistles and personal alarms for their security. Combine Hollywood with social pressure at the store, and most people will go along.

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Proud anachronism

You did well by attempting to help someone else and should just continue to do so. It will sometimes rub off in a good way.

I like the idea of taking them to the range and truly showing them the differences. I would go so far as to challenge them to shoot under stress with an auto-loader versus a revolver. There's where they will find the ease of using a revolver with no safeties and levers.

I have had three daughters. Wonderful girls. Smart, everyone one of them.

Quite often they asked my advice and I gave it and then they went and did elsewise, often unsuccessfully.

I never said, "I told yo so." I never said nothing. Because people are people and they don't think like you no matter how much you wish.

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Have guns...will shoot'em.

A lot of first time gun buyers make there choice based on looks or what they have seen in the movies.

It always starts off with "hey, you're really into guns. I wanna buy a handgun for the house. What do you recommend?"

I always recommend one of 2 guns for a newbie, a .38 SPL K-frame or a Makarov. So far, only one person, my oldest, tightest, extant friend, has listened. He now owns one of each. He lives in NYC and went through hoops from hell to own those guns legally and loves 'em. I like that guy.

Everyone else has done pretty much the opposite of what I said. Some have tried the K-frame after spending a ton on whatever else they got originally. Others have gotten obstinate and have spent even more going through everything under the sun just to avoid what I recommended. One even went so far as to buy an Armscor .38 rather than buy an old Model 10 I was selling for $20 more.

I'll offer advice if they have built their knowledge base, since I ask "Well, what are you considering buying?". Otherwise it's usually a waste of time.

Chief: I am a retired lawyer -- I used to be paid to give advice that people ignored. As others have said the new shooters want your advice, but they also want to hear you confirm what they want to hear -- or at least can appreciate.

Your advice is hard on the modern ear. We forum guys all love old revolvers -- but even a lot of young cops have no clue on how to load, reload and shoot revolvers (certainly not in double-action).

At the range where I volunteer we had a young cop ask how to safely uncock a loaded revolver? What???? The cop actually had a loaded and cocked revolver in a gun bag he was carrying.

And in the modern media -- nobody shoots revolvers (none of the cops at any rate). Revolvers are in old movies. Real old movies.

And if you listen to your advice with young ears -- you are suggesting that they buy an old used gun.

These revolvers we love are an acquired taste. Many of us were youngsters when we first starting appreciating the elogent lines of S&W revolvers (even the lines of a Ruger Speed Six). We heard our fathers and uncles discuss trigger pull and function.

It is a lot to expect that people new to guns would see even part of that charm (almost magic) -- especially when the sales clerk is talking about the latest and greatest new gun on the market -- with a 20 round capacity!!!

We might stand a chance if your new shooter asked you to go to the gun show or gun store with him, but once he or she is on his own -- what can you expect?

Chief -- thanks for your service!

OK I need to get this straight... you actually managed to get someone from the 'new generation' to let go of their iGizmo long enough to give them advice?!?
Holly molly, that's a first class acheivement in my book! Cut them some slack as for not following it... They are probably not used to direct face to face contact.
You might have better luck next time if you text it to them instead....

Yep, same here! I cringe when I think about some of the conversations and opinions about guns I had a decade or so ago*....

--Neill

* or last week, even...

Seriously...where on the internet can you go and find someone REALLY recommending a .22 or 38 caliber REVOLVER for home defense, or for any purpose really???
If you cruise the other gun forums, especially those devoted to packing and carrying and home defense....do you REALLY see people advocating Model 10's, 19's or 18's....NO WAY....
ALMOST everyone on those forums HIGHLY recommend the latest, greatest version of whatever self loader is in vogue...be it Smith, Glock, Sig, Springfield, CZ, or anything BUT a revolver....
I posted something similar yesterday, but the ONLY revolvers who people on MOST forums begrudgingly admit MIGHT be useful are J frames....apparently the rest of us are doomed to die in any armed confrontation if you are armed with anything less than a 40 caliber self loader stoked with the latest bonded core rapid expanding miracle hollow point...OR the latest version of a 1911....preferably one that is as far a departure from the original design as possible..
It is what it is......WE recommend revolvers, and are laughed at....
My wife's SD handgun is a .22 revolver...If I told most people that they would just assume she was totally unarmed....

My wife's best friend visited and asked the very same thing. First gun wants to carry.

I made similar suggestions. What did she buy? A Glock 40 compact...

From now on I'm just going to keep my mouth shut.

It is apparent that we are not alone in this one.

As one of our members here so aptly put it the "Gun Store Commando's" are at a alltime high.

The terms I hear thrown out there in the gun stores about revolvers are:

Useless
Outdated
Antiques
Boat Anchors
Dick Tracy Paperweights (just heard that last week)
Ineffective

Some stores in my area won't even take one in trade. All they deal in is the black guns.

I have a vid of Jerry Miculek on my smart phone that I show disbelievers. This usually changes their minds.

I am asked what I have against semi auto pistols. My answer is nothing at all. I own 2. Cheap ones at that.

And I am pretty good with them. When I tell them what they are(a Llama 1911 and a FEG P9R) they look at me like I landed a UFO in the parking lot....

It's not you Chief...trust me.

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Take your time..quickly.

Good gun shops with a good selection of good used revolvers are getting hard to come by. That's all I see anymore.
I have to laugh everytime I go to a gun show when I see the younger crowd drooling and fondling all the black stuff! It's like the Holy Grail to them.
Hate to say it but the Black Stuff has no class, not like a good old revolver with wood stocks that set off the polished blue / black finish !

I am into cars as well as guns and everyone asks advice, but then they end up doing something stupid anyway. I work in investments and the vast majority of people I work with lease their cars. Okay, not the best choice, but not the worst. But the cars they lease, they are often the ones that depreciate like crazy. Okay guys, your lease payment is depreciation plus interest, simple as that. If you want to lease, buy something that holds its value like a Honda or a BMW even, not a Dodge or similar.

Be wary with advice, the wise don't need it and the fools don't heed it.

All you can do is hope to educate newbs to some of the issues.

My experience is that they'll always make a final selection based on aesthetics, ergonomics, and saleperson advice.

I think advising somebody to by an old used gun is a loser, regardless of how economically sound it may be. Instant gratification is a major motivator.

I have also had the ignored advice problem several time, but I am lucky in that my favorite LGS (and indoor range)agrees with me about the revolver being a superior starter gun. I make my advice known and send them there ( or take them if I can) telling them to rent a few, talk to the staff, and get a feel for what we have been talking about. While they do carry and sell a good deal of the 'combat tupperware' they always tries to lead the new shooter to a good revolver as a first gun. Because it is easy to learn good shooting habits with. Even with the guy behind the counter extolling the virtues of a good K frame Smith, telling them why it is a superior entry level firearm, better than half do not want it. They want "high power rounds" with "high cap. mags." or air weight tiny 9m/m also preferably with high cap. mags. thank you very much. I guess the revolver just isn't sexy enough for the basic tv and movie raised beginner. Sadly the usually end up learning the hard way after buying several that they just can't use worth spit.

Sheriff, what brand/load does she use in her .22? I am thinking about letting my daughter have my Kit Gun and me taking her 442. I can see advantages in using either solids or hollow points.

I know the frustration of having advice ignored. A lot of the new shooters who have asked my, usually just in passing, and especially women, have wound up arming themselves with one of the dozen or so .380 jam-o-matics rather than a good reliable j-frame. I asked my friend at the NAPA why he was selling people these guns. "'cause that's what they say they want." I think the biggest reason is that most people just really believe that five or six rounds just ain't enough.

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Georgia On My Mind

Well thanks for the response guys........ At least I feel better that I am not alone - although it still bewilders me.

Regards,

Chief38

Just went through this with a friend. First handgun situation, so I advised a 4" L frame (pre lock of course) since it can shoot Spl's and once he perfected his skills, he could step up to magnums and thereby not outgrow the revolver.

Didn't listen. Bought a semi auto.

I went through this with photo, bicycles, fishing gear - all things I know a little bit about - with people over the years. They don't listen after exhausting you with questions seeking detailed explanations and wisdom based on your success.

The part I like the most is when they come to you later, complaining about how the thing doesn't work. I usually tell them outright that was the very reason I told them not to buy it. Not a particularly well received response, but satisfying none the less.

IMO, it's not purely generational, some people will ask for advice and then proceed to completely ignore that advice. It's been my experience that those who listen usually come back and thank me for the advice and those who don't get an "I told you" and told to take their complaints to whowever they chose to listen to.

A neighbor woman in her mid 50's decided to get a CPL (concealed pistol license) and had never fired a gun in her life. She asked my advice as to which gun to purchase.
I advised her to enroll in a class that a local gun shop/range holds monthly. They have only women in the class and only female instructors. This is an introduction to firearms class. They talk about safety and about carrying firearms or keeping them in the home.
Then they go into the range and the women shoot a big variety of handguns. They shoot semi autos and revolvers in various calibers and frame sizes in order to see what feels comfortable to them.
Well, she took my advice and enrolled in the class. But while she was there to sign up for the class a store salesman sold her a J frame in 38spl.
She went to the class and couldn't handle the recoil.
She then took the CPL class and got her license but has a gun that she can't handle and can't afford to buy another one at this time.
I had a Hogue over sized grip that I had laying around and I put it on the gun for her.
It helps her with the recoil but the recoil is still too much for her and it makes the gun too big for her to conceal.

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Old revolvers are works of art

Yeah thing is, I know just as many 60 year olds that do this same thing with not just guns, but anything. I help friends when buying custom made or high end musical instruments and the old guys are so cheap and frugal they screw themselves over and the young guys all go for the shiney objects. Some people confuse cost, price and value too.

I gave my son a plain double action 38 special he's learning with, he has snap caps and not allowed to fire or carry it until I see him practicing and learning the basics. I have a nicer semi-auto BG380 with his name on it new in the box, but he has no clue. And if he doesn't learn this revolver properly I'll keep or sell the BG380 and he'll never find out about it.

J frames can be tough on your hands and wrist with +P loads.

Did you have her try any standard .38 loads? That may do the trick.

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Take your time..quickly.

All she ever fired was target ammo. The gun she bought was an airweight. She would have been better off with a steel frame, or a semi auto that used some of the energy to operate.
The purpose of the class is to let women try various handguns so I just can't imagine that the salesman would steer her into a gun (which he did) when she was signing up for a novice women's class.

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Old revolvers are works of art

There is one bright side to the general dismissal of revolvers. I've found that they generally languish on the pawn shop shelf and can often be gotten pretty cheaply. I bought a near-mint Model 14 for $300, a Model 19 in the box for $300, a no-dash, tapered barrel Model 64 for $350 that looked like it may have been un-shot.

Yes, the overall turning-up-of-the-nose at revolvers is bad for most but it's really good for those of us who like 'em.

The same thing is happening with semis, btw. Now that we have 18 round magazines in everything, those humble single-stacks don't often get a second glance. I got two Norinco Tok clones, a 7.62 Model 54 and a 9MM Model 213, unused and in their boxes, for about $250 apiece. That 213 is like a target gun, accuracy-wise.

I was in a gunshop and watched a salesman talk a couple into buying a revolver for their first defense gun....after that it went downhill.
First of all this "expert" salesman told them the Taurus was the best revolver ever produced. It got worse from there. The couple buying the gun were very scared of guns and didn't really want one in the house, but felt it was necessary to protect themselves and their children. After many questions were put forth by the couple the salesman came up with this solution. By the way, the couple had a two story house with a full basement, with their bedroom on the second floor (this will be an important bit of information as the story continues).
The solution, for safety's sake, put forth by the salesman, was to keep the gun uloaded, locked in a small handgun vault by the bed, and to have the internal lock on the hammer locked, with the key in another drawer. To further make the gun safer, the ammuntion was to be locked in a small safe in the basement so that there was no chance of someone being able to load the gun unless it was needed.
Needless to say, that was the last time I ever stepped foot in that shop. Later found out that the gunsmith shot himself in the stomach with a 25-06 that a customer brought into be worked on.

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Have Canon, Will Travel

You gave advice. Not orders.

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John 3:16 .

If you wouldn't trust a used car salesman blindly, why would you trust some jackwagon peddling guns? It makes no difference if the guy is helpful and knows his stuff or if he's a schmuck; why do people trust a stranger to sell them a gun when they wouldn't dream of doing the same with a car?

Interesting thread. People make decisions on the information they have at hand. Sometimes it's bogus information. Sometimes they can't think out of the box. The best advice is facilitating self-enlightenment - a trip to the range.

A buddy is new to shooting. Not new to the world, though - he's 50 something. He bought a Glock and has been wrestling with it. Just doesn't work for him. He was somewhat biased against revolvers having tried Ruger single actions. At the range, I let him shoot a K-38 and a couple of Model 24s.

Wouldn't you know it, but he just landed a 1957 pre-27, 5". It's well-worn on the surface, but tight. It was full of goo and benefited from a good cleaning. Not hard to imagine it was a cop's duty gun that sat until the grandkids inherited it. Now the buddy is thinking about a 44 caliber S&W and is looking for handloading equipment.

So it goes. Today a Block (sic) tomorrow a Smith. I told him it was a slippery slope.

Good thread.
I have a different perspective. I work p/t at a LGS, and am also a CC Instructor. My CC Instruction is not related to the store, nor do I recieve any sort of commission on store sales.

I have observed on the gun forums that it's quite fashionable to slam employees of GS's.
In short - it personally benefits me none, whether the buyer/looker obtains a Colt Gold Cup or a used Jennings .380.

I, and the guys I work with make every effort to steer a purchaser, especially a new shooter, towards the best common sense choice of hardware we have or can get for their intended or stated need.

BUT, let me repeat, BUT - you should see or hear the 'consultants' that some inexperienced people use or bring along to help them make their decisions.
I've almost spit coffee through my nose when, asking to help a small group at the pistol counter, and hear that a member of the group has brought along an 'advisor' to help select a defense handgun.

The 'advisor' has been among the following:

-His Dad was a Highway Patrol Trooper
- He was in the Army (M.O.S. - Motor Pool)
- He used to belong to an un-named outlaw motorcycle gang
- He grew up on a farm (and knows that a .22 will kill anything)
- He's worked for 'an agency that doesn't exist', and "can't really talk about anywhere he's been" (oh, brother. - he works for Jiffy Lube...)

...I could go on for a bit longer, but ALL the above has been encountered, honestly.

So, before you pile on GS clerks for steering someone wrong, there's usually more to it than that.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

A co-worker was getting her concealed pistol license last spring and asked me what kind of gun she should get. I don't tell anyone to get a particular gun or kind of gun, but I am willing to help them look at several that may meet their needs, or explain why I don't think a particular gun is a good choice for what they want. I discussed some pros and cons of various guns that she seemed to be interested in and invited her over to check out the guns that my wife and I have that were the same or similar to what she wanted, and to shoot anything that she wanted so she could get a feel for for what she liked. She didn't take us up on the offer to look at or shoot our guns, but asked me to accompany her to the gun shop and help her pick something out before she took her class for the permit. We had a day set to go to the shop, but she got impatient and went a few days early (I think she got paid and the money was burning a hole in her pocket). From what I understand she told the clerk how much she had to spend and bought the first gun that he showed her at the high end of her price range. She shot the gun for the first time a day or two before the class for her permit and hated it, then struggled through the class with it because she had already paid for the class. The instructor would have loaned her a different gun, but she was determined to work with what she would actually have. I don't think that she has shot the gun since the class, and when I suggest trading it in on something else she shrugs and says she can't afford a better gun.
On one hand, I'm disappointed that she didn't take the time to look at all of the options (including good used guns that she could have afforded) and educate herself so that she could get a gun that she would have liked and that suited her needs. OTOH, it was her money, her gun, and her choice, and there's nothing I can really do about it.

My wife's best friend, on the other hand, is the opposite. She is patient, asks a lot of questions, listens to what we have to say, does research on her own, and asks more questions if she doesn't understand something. After finding out what she wanted the gun for, I helped her compile a list of suitable guns and added, "or something similar to one of those" so that she would know that I was not pushing a particular gun on her and that other guns we hadn't thought of may also be suitable. We have taken her to the range and gun shop several times so that she could try different guns out and find something that she likes. She selects a gun she is interested in, we discuss whether it will meet her needs, I make sure she can reach the trigger comfortably, hold the gun properly, operate the gun and any safeties, and field strip the gun in question by herself. Then, if possible we go to the range with the gun so she can try it out. After about half a dozen range trips with about a dozen different guns, she seems to like my 3913 the best, so I will probably be helping her track down a good 3913 when she gets the money together to buy her own.

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Ban lunatics and criminals

Sometimes you just can't keep folks from their own stupidity.

Many years ago, a good friend got his pistol permit. Of course he rushed right down to the Mecca of Firearms Gun Shop and made his "Home Defense" purchase.

Now, this fella is a good sort. Nice guy. But...he never listens to anyone. Not even his best buddy...me.

So on Sunday afternoon I get the tradional phone call.

"Man!Yougottacomeuphereandseemynewgun!!!!"

Uh-oh Suddenly, I'm terrified. Ok..I'll be there in an hour.

He lives in a very secluded area. Behind the house there is nothing for about 2 miles in any direction.

He meets me in the driveway. With the....HOLY ****!!!
I was stunned,mortified and most of all very afraid for him.

A brandie new Model 29 with a 4 inch barrel...Holy Mary Mother of God....his HOUSE GUN.

Of course he hasn't fired it yet, so I start delaying the dreaded moment. He is gettin antsy. It's gonna get dark soon,he says. Yep.

After the sun has been down for a good 30 minutes, I told him, bring that cannon outside for a minute. And one round only.

But I need my hearing protectors. Nope, just load up and point that howitzer down back and let'r rip .....

It's 2 am and you hear someone in the house...you don't have time, you have to protect yourself, I told him. And put my fingers in my ears.

The rest as they say, is history gentlemen. For three days he thought the phone was ringing and couldn't see jack for about 15.

He understood then what I tried to impart previously.
The 29 went away and was replaced by a Model 64....

I do truly regret doing that to him. And I am sure he suffered some hearing loss from that. But the lesson he learned was most important....it don't have to be the biggest..it's how you shoot it.

These days I just kinda sit back waiting to see what will happen next.

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Take your time..quickly.

Been there and know you're frustrations.

For newbies I always recommend a 4" K frame for home SD and a good old 870 shotgun loaded with OO buck as I don't trust autoloading shotguns and the 870 is to this day the best shotgun for the money IMHO. For CC I recommend a 2.5, 3 or 4" K (sights or fixed) for concealability. Never recommend a J as I've seen folks have big time problems shooting them with any accuracy and accuracy wins every time. Most people do not practice nearly enough and the J's require more practice than any other frame size to master. I do tell them to use .38 or .38 +P's versus magnums as the .38 is the easier caliber to shoot acuately and won't cause them to develop a flinch thats hard to cure.

If they have some experience I recommend a good Sig 228 or 226 in 9mm or one of the snub K's. The Sigs are accurate, reliable and low recoiling weapons with more rounds. Two of the best semi's ever made IMO and have only seen one 226 malfunction in many years. Was from an extremely dirty magazine filled with small bits of gravel at an IPSC match. Tell them all to do lots of dry firing drills to get used to the trigger and at the LEAST a monthly trip to the range. A Glock is also a great weapon, but I just don't like plastic and am not a fan of their triggers. Some great deals on a 17 to be had and you can't get anymore reliable, but them double stacks are harder to conceal due to their grip width.

I'm a 1911 guy thanks to shooting and owning many of them since 1978 on a constant basis. Great platform and with a trigger job set at 4.5 lbs are a dream to shoot. I've had great expeiences with Colts but for the money a Springer Mil-Spec is the best deal out there for a 1911. Seen way too many Kimbers malfunction to ever own or recommend one for SD. For an experienced shooter it's to this day the best semi ever made for carry and has a variety of bullet weights to choose from, but I'm a SGD kinda guy and load my mags with 230 grainers. A 1911 is nice and flat and can be hidden easily compared to the double stack semi's. I find them easier to hide than my K frames in a Lobo IWB holster and are comfortable to boot. Most punks/BG's are used to grab and shoot these days. A plus for the 1911 is that thumb safety. If you lose your weapon in a gun grab the safety devices built into it could save your life by giving you enough time to regain control of it and break a wrist in the process.

I personally have a 2 of my K and L frames stowed in strategic hiding spots in the house in case of emergency and I don't have my 1911 on. You would have a VERY hard time finding them. They are both loaded with 158 gr. Speer Gold Dot + P's so that my wife can control them.

In closing I also tell them to go to a GS that has a range with rentals and try the different handguns out or try out one of mine. What works for me may not work for another. I just relate my experiences from shooting just about all of the popular brands, models and calibers out there and what I would OR would not carry in a life or death confrontation.

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V/R
Roger / SG

Oldafsp

Taint nothing wrong with a model 29 for Home Defense, you just load it up with 44 spl. Compared to the 44 Magnum the Special is a real pussycat and very easy to handle in an N frame.

Actually, it's great having my wife around when female friends or co-workers ask about guns, because the wife can give them some additional opinions from her perspective and experience. Some of them approach her first about guns and shooting, and I get brought in later to help work up a list of possible guns to meet their needs and wants since I have more experience with a wider variety of guns.

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Ban lunatics and criminals

My wife applied for her CCW here in Ohio and when she took the course I let her use my beautiful old 19 2&1/2", white outline, red ramp. She shot the best in the course and the instructor liked the gun so much he went out and bought one. It's a Cadillac disguised as a snubby.

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Loyalty Above All.. but Honor

With new shooters as they age age and gain shooting experience some of them will actually figure it out and start to buy the right gun for them. All to often they either start out asking a bubby who may know or not know that much about guns or they go with the latest hot firearm that may or may not be the right choice for them.

I have enjoyed reading this entire thread. Many truths and good opinions/rants here for sure!

Coming from a Highly technical background in cars (KNOW IT ALL!), people would ask me about how to best modify their car for more performance.

I have also always been a gun nut since I was about 6, and I am 33 now....

so people would and still do ask me about what gun I think will work best for what need they have for it....




I have found that Young and Old generations are stubborn and hard-headed.....


When I worked at the hot rod shop, selling parts for street and drag cars, I got quite a reputation for knowing how to make it go fast, reliably, without breaking the bank. Cars are all about the right combinations.

The funny thing is, finding the right gun for an owner and the intended use is the same thing. It is all about the right fit of owner to gun combination.

I know why so many smart old gunsmiths/firearms instructors/car guys that really know their stuff are so short and rude with so many people......

Sometimes, it seems that You have to tell people what they need to do to keep from messing up, instead of simply suggesting an opinion.

I got into this mode, and I tell people upfront that I don't want to waste my time or their's if all they are going to do is listen to me blah, blah, blah, and then do something different that the local auto parts clerk or gun shop helper says anyways. Once I have their attention, I listen intently for what they are trying to accomplish with their car or firearm. I then give them a list of best choices and tell them, if You don't start with one of these, You are probably making the wrong choice and don't come crying to me about it later.

This usually gets their respect and understanding that I really do genuinely care about their question and situation, and they will abide by my advice 9 out of 10 times. If not, it ticks them off and they get all huffy. If that happens, I say, go ahead and try it another way, good luck to You, and wash my hands and conscience of it with them.

The bottom line, coming from a BLACK-gun generation of high-capacity-is-king that I did, is that most of the Black guns are great for MEN or Women who shoot often, are duty officers, don't try and conceal the pistol as civilians, and understand that any automatic is more likely to fail than a revolver.

For personal defense and enjoyment, I have owned 3 Glocks, a S&W MP40 (which I enjoyed more than the Glocks), a Taurus titanium 651 .357 snubbie (handled terrible, bad double action trigger, KICKED LIKE A MULE with .357), and finally my little Sig P238 is the one I settled on for carry right now.

I knew that the little Taurus 651 and Sig P238 were the only practical carry guns before I bought the others, but, I bought the others at such a good deal that I couldn't pass them up, and sold all of them for $100+ profit each. I ended up selling that Taurus 651 for a $320 profit!!!!

The long and short is that I will probably look for a S&W compact .38/.357 or .22 Magnum snubby now in a casual manner, without hurry.

The S&W bodyguard snubby that I showed/talked my friend into for his wife has been superb for them! He had bought her a Taurus PT111 9mm against my advice and she HATED it. When he brought the bodyguard home for her, he said her eyes lit up and she said, "when can we go shoot it?". Needless to say, that snubby was a perfect fit for her and she loves to shoot it. The trigger is a very nice double action and she can really shoot well with it. She carries it in her purse at all times or in her car when she can't carry inside somewhere not allowed.

Why did I choose a Sig P238? It is the only compact .380 that is all metal, lightweight, and has a very-important-to-me-SINGLE-ACTION trigger pull that I could find for less than $800. I HATE the long-stroke, double action safety triggers on these compact .380's and mid size semi-autos. With the Sig P238, it is flat and I can carry it in my front pocket without showing very comfortably. I can shoot a 3 inch group with it one handed at 15 yards, so accuracy is not an issue either.

I am a big guy, and I live in Hotter than Hades Texas. You can't conceal anything under a second shirt here, or You will practically die from a heat stroke. If we had open carry here, I would probably carry my new-to-me S&W Model 28-2 HP, but, even in Texas, there are too many gun hating idiots for that possibility....but, that is a whole different debate.


To sum up that long-winded speech, I guess I would just say:


Keep on giving advice-recommendations to those who You think will heed it well. Don't get sour and mad if someone doesn't adhere to the advice, and just chalk it up to human ignorance/hard-headed character/stupidity without it souring your advice to the next person who asks You for help. Remember, everyone is different and not all Young or older people are receptive or even resistant to advice. Some Young kids really do want to know the best way, and they really do want to know from an older or wiser "expert", and they will listen..... please help them, because without some good and valuable knowledge passing to our Youth, this Country will be doomed for sure. If the older person doesn't listen, just chalk it up to them being senile and smile at them when they gripe to You about their gun they bought instead of the one You recommended.

Leadlobber, yours is probably the best post in this whole thread. I enjoyed it.

You're right in that not everyone will listen to good advice. I've been offering gun advice for a lot of years and I just came to the conclusion that advice is just that, advice, and if they don't want to take it, fine, doesn't hurt me at all. You can't force anyone to follow your advice.