I am a member of a few gun forums. Today, an individual asked the same question on two of them:
"Is it safe to shoot +P in a heavy barreled Model 10 bought new in 1971".
Argument ensued...one individual even opined that the K frame was never meant for plus P...that's what the L frame was for!
The original poster finally called S&W....Here is his post:
"....Spoke with a rep. in the tech. dept. at S&W. He told me that as of 1982 they heat treated the revolver so that it could take the pressure of the +P round. Prior to 82', the revolver was not manufactured for the +P and he recommended to stick with the .38 special cartridge..."

Oh well...

I don't know who the person talked to at Smith & Wesson but he or she should read their manual before making a statement like that.

Here is what S&W says about +P ammo in their 38 special according to there online manual.
“Plus-P” (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the pressures
associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures may affect
the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety built into some
revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS. This ammunition
should not be used in Smith & Wesson medium (K frame) revolvers
manufactured prior to 1958. Such pre-1958 medium (K-frame) revolvers
can be identified by the absence of a model number stamped inside the
yoke cut of the frame (i.e., the area of the frame exposed when the
cylinder is in the open position).

So, any revolver model 10 made after 1958 is safe to shoot +P ammo.

Now I am going to let you know the real story. S&W has been heat treating cylinders at least since 1930. Also, todays plus P ammo is what standard pressure was back before 1972. I am going to give you a link from a well known member on this forum. He has done a lot of research and is knowlegeable on this subject.
Shooting with Hobie

I was thinking that I had read that Smith & Wesson started heat treating cylinders right after WWI. I don't do hot loads in my little 32 Hand Ejectors anyway, but I treat the one I have made prior to WWI even more carefully... just factory type loads from the 1930's per Hatcher's Textbook.

Despite all the SAAMI numbers thrown around, most modern, non-magnum ammo, not made by specialty houses, is loaded well BELOW the so-called maximum pressure! This is a consequence of a litigious society looking to cash in for anything and everything.
The entire debate over so-called +P ammo is ridiculous and over-blown. +P is 2,000 psi over standard...like whooptido! Standard ammo can show pressure variation beyond that! I've never though twice about bumping .38 Special reloads in ANY model or frame size and I certainly don't have a trail of blown revolvers behind me!

Wonder if people are talking about the same thing or not.
( Apples to Apples )
Maybe some are referring to heat treatment of frames, and others are referring to the heat treatment of cylinders?

Now THAT is interesting Roaddog28...pre-1972 "standard" velocity ammo was same pressure as current "+P" ammo? Seems somewhat analagous to the old early .357 Mag ammo supposed much hotter than later. Or is it just that advances in propellant technologies allowed the standard velocity laods to operate a lower pressure?

Hi Fox Creek,
Did you read the link I enclosed. The standard pressure 38 special back before 1972 was running at 850 to 900 fps. This round is still below 38 special SAAMI pressures. The SAAMI standard 21500 psi for 38 special. The pressure for the round above is in 18000 range. Todays standard pressure is running at 730 fps for the 158 gr LRN.
Most "+P" rounds today are running 900 fps to 925 fps. Of course there are exceptions but +P now is more of a marketing tool by ammo makers I believe ammo companies downgraded the standard pressure to guard against a consumer shooting the old round in a wornout revolver and having issues.
The original poster on the other forums was talking about a model 10 heavy barrel made in 1971. I believe he got some poor advice.
I am using +P 38s in a`M&P 4 inch made in 1954. No issues. I use for SD Remingtons LSWCHP 158 gr +P. I shoot a box every other month.
Regards.
Howard

I agree with roaddog and others that feel .38 SPL has been watered down over the years. Here is a actual chronograph test of early vintage ammo that confirms that belief for me at least, read post #5
Original .38 Special black powder round? - Shooters Forum

I read it, and your 1972 statement is simply not true. That writter's comments have changed many times over the years. As some of his unverified statements were challenged on this and other forums, he went back and deleted those posts without explanation, and deleted those sections of his story, not using it for future posts. There is an interesting thread in the ammo section of this forum a year or two ago where myself and other LEO's from the 1960's and 70's confirm that the quoted factory velocity numbers back then were pure hype, and not obtainable with standard sidearms. The test barrel for a .357 Magnum in those days was about 11" long and unvented. In 1979 when the new requirements were implemented industry wide for velocity testing, S&W's ammo reported velocities dropped over 20%. Same ammo, just accurate numbers. While it is true that factory velocities were advertised as higher back in 1972, it is not true that they were that fast when shot out of regular revolvers.

Ahh... now I understand the situation with the USAF revolvers.

1. Very well used.

2. "Range Guns" meaning they were probably filthy. Really dirty guns wear faster as tolerances fill up with crud accelerating wear and I suspect that carbon build up in the forcing cone can lead to cracking.

3. Non-standard ammo likely loaded much hotter than factory +P. So a comparison is moot. No relation.

As for the watering down of the 357 ammo, I know that at one time it was claimed that a 158 bullet moved out at 1470 FPS or some such number. No, this was not reality. I had one box of 158 SP 357s from the early 1970s that I clocked at around 1350 from a 5" M27. Now factory 158s tend more to the 1250-1300 range. I think the factory 357s were backed off 50-100 FPS in the interest of all the alloy and small frame 357s that came out the last 15 years or so. But this is just intuition.

The specification sheets and my own shooting convinces me beyond a doubt that 38 Special ammo has been back-pedaled and the 38 Colt Super has really been taken down a few notches.

At the end of the day regardless of what used to be loaded current mainstream +P is a 125 at 925 and this is, in my humble opinion, a mild target load. I would never trust my life to factory +P.

I was a weapons instructor in the USAF for 20 years...1983-2003. Some of our M15s were well used, but they were not "filthy" range guns...our training guns were cleaned after every firing. Weapons qualification training in the USAF includes field stripping & cleaning, and they were ALWAYS cleaned by the students after firing and inspected by the instructor before going back into the armory, at least that was the case at every CATM shop I ever worked at. I also never saw any M15s worn out by shooting PGU ball ammo and I never saw a cracked forcing cone on any M15 I ever handled in the USAF. Doesn't mean it never happened, I just don't believe there was a widespread problem with the ammo causing accelerated wear in the guns. JMHO.

I believe that is just an 'urban legend' that keeps getting repeated on the internet. The link below is to a earlier post on this forum where you can see the results that brought me to that conclusion. It shows (as you have seen before) the old numbers for the 38 Super were also overstated, and there is no significance difference in factory 130 grain fmj Super ammo of today and that going back as far as the 1940's...

Ammo Test Old -vs- New for 38 Super

What you did and others I will not dispute. But way back in the early 1900s the hand ejector 38 special out of a 6 inch barrel was shooting a 158 gr at over 850 fps. Now this was blackpowder but still it leads me to believe the ammo back before the 1970s was running faster and loaded at higher pressures. What I am saying along with Saxon Pig is the standard pressure 38 special ammo today is loaded at a lower pressure and velocity.
The OP was commenting about a question on another forum about shooting +P out of a 1971 model 10. The member on the other forum was getting poor advice according to him from S&W.
Personally I shoot when I can afford it +P 38 special ammo through all of my K frames. This includes a M&P pre 10 4 inch made in 1954 and a model 36 no dash. I believe there is needless concern about shooting +P ammo. All S&W 38 special all steel revolvers made in the last fifty years can handle the +P round.
Regards,
Howard

I agree, but some people when making this case incorrectly quote advertised factory velocities from yesteryear as being accurate, and they were not. For example, the 1965 Gunner's Bible shows a factory Remington Arms Company ballistics chart, which states that the standard 158 grain .38 Special round at the muzzle would be doing 855 fps, not the 900+ some people attribute to it. I tested this identical period ammo, and it clocked at average of 805 fps. The same vintage Winchester brand averaged 793 fps. The case for +P being OK does not have to be made with misrepresentation of the actual velocities of standard loads from the 60's and 70's. Best to all...

Just like the horsepower claims in the 60's. All measured at the flywheel without accessory drives.

The original .357 mag ammo was 1,500 fps plus with a 158 grain bullet, which is alot hotter than the stuff they put out now with a 158 grain JSP unless its something like Corbon or Buffalo Bore. Alot of the earlier .38 Special is much better than what's coming out now.

__________________
Vaya con Dios

Those who claim that today's Plus P and standard .38 ammo is weaker than was once the case forget that pressures are now measured differently, and that now, four-inch vent test barrels are used, to represent the barrel/cyinder gap in a real revolver. Prior to that, six-inch test barrels with no vent were employed. That accounts for the lower velocity in modern .38 ammo.

I saw chrono tests on ammo in the old days, and what a revolver actually delivered was much less than the advertised 860 FPS.

And WHICH PLus P matters. The USAF had to rebuild its .38 revolvers, some several times, after going to high velocity ammo. That was a big reason why they pressed to adopt a 9mm auto.

Even with J-frames warrantied for PlusP, I use it in moderation for defense and occasional familiarity firing. You just don't need to beat your gun up with hotter loads unless you're going to need the added power to shoot animate targets that might require some added punch to put down.

TS and I keep going around on this. If ones looks at the piece I linked in an earlier post I have test results from actual shooting of a 4" revolver with older ammo. The real world difference is not as much as some think. But anyone who absolutely refuses to believe factory ammo has been loaded down is free to believe that. My research, observations and experience tell me otherwise.

TS keeps mentioning those AF guns breaking but I don't know anything about the guns, the circumstances or the ammo used. Was it something special for the military? Off the shelf ammo like in the stores? Frankly I can't believe ANY factory ammo would be so destructive.

As for the broken M15s being the reason for switching to the M9, again he is saying things that I have never heard from any other source. It was my understanding that the switch was made to align with NATO with the 9mm caliber and to consolidate all services with one gun for logistics sake.

My limited experience with 38 special military loads gave me the impression that they were a little wimpy compared to the commercial loads of the time. I believe the military ammo was loaded with 130 grain FMJ while the commercial stuff was mostly 158 grain round nose lead.

To echo SP, I have never heard of any problems with the M15 revolvers in military service nor that the switch was made from the .45 cal M1911A1 and various other guns to the M9 for any reason other than standardization with NATO.

__________________
Sincerely,
Hobie

I know, I know...I found it humorous that a person, and apparently S&W, thinks it unsafe to shoot today's "+P" 38 spl ammo in a '70's heavy barrel Model 10.

There is an ad floating around on this forum somewhere for the 2 inch M&P (Pre-Model 10) that says it can shoot the .38/44, which is a 158 grain at 1125 fps.

+P ammo will not blow up an S&W. If you shoot enough of it, the stuff MAY increase wear. I think you have to shoot quite a bit to even do that.

Certainly you will not harm anything if you shoot it enough to figure out point of aim and then practice with it occasionally.

Interesting read....Thanks.

Thanks. Very interesting info.

Here you go...


Shooting with Hobie

For the love of God, make that a sticky.

GF

+1. Just about every week this topic comes up. I think if we had a sticky on this subject it would cutdown the question of, can I shoot +P 38s through my model 10-10 heavy barrel?
Howard

Yes. Please make this a sticky.

I have been shooting +P's for over 40 years in K frames. I still have all my appendages. And no blown up revolvers.

__________________
Take your time..quickly.

+100 to that.

This Model 10-6 was shipped in June of 1971. It's been hammered with both +P factory loads and even heavier experimental handloads over many years time. After over 30 years of heavy shooting use it had a bushing stuck in it to minimize end-shake. If it'll make another 30 years it'll about see me out.

Factory +P is no problem in Model 10 revolvers.

Attached Images

DSCF5763.jpg (66.6 KB, 1023 views)

Saxon could be "difficult" but he was certainly correct about that. I have fired 38+P in most every 38 I own and never noticed anything in the way of a problem or even an increase in recoil.

Much to do about nothing IMHO. A real early pre 1930 38 special deserves a break, the aluminum cylinder guns which you should not shoot with even standard loads and the early alloy J frames all need some caution.

One day, I might gather up the courage to touch off a .38 Special +P. I think if I put on some really think welding gloves, I might be able to touch off one round in my Dan Wesson .357 SuperMag. If I ever work up the courage to try, and I actually survive...I'll post up a report!

Don't forget to wear a welder's full face shield. For luck, you might also want to put on a kelvar vest.

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You're shy a few manners.

Careful. You might get PTSD like that NYT reporter got from firing an AR.....

GF is right mag that to the fridge!

I had really been hoping someone would re-post this as I had forgotten where I read it.

I think GF is right; this really ought to be a sticky because I see the debate over .38 Spl +P over and over again.

My compromise for a Model 10 .38 Spl +P is a model 547.

Never let facts and figures get in the way of myth and paranoia. The +p hysteria will never end...

I can't imagine a manufacture of guns designing them to blow up with a 15% pressure overload! Engineers almost always design for a 100% safety factor.

Rawhyde,
Those welding gloves are important. Otherwise, the checkering on the grips could rip the hide clean off your hand!

rat

Thought this might be of interest, in Germany a firearm must have a proof house stamp on any firearm that is used here. In order to be proofed, the firearm must meet the CIP proof standards, which is firing a 25% overpressure round through it; for a Model 10 that would be two rounds for each cylinder.

And by the way, there are lots of Model 10s in Germany.

Am I the only one that is VERY weary of this entire topic? Not to mention all of the BS that goes with it........
Randy

Nah, it's like reruns of my favorite NCIS episodes.

You know it will end with someone getting slapped up side the head but it's still fun!

Post it ! Post it again! I'll do it I swear....



... one more plus pee thread and the kitten blows his brains out.

GF

Sticky would really help. EVERY week we get a "I just got a .38 SPL CTG" thread asking us what it is, and EVERY week we get a "Can I shoot +P in my model 10?".
There's nothing wrong with asking questions, of course, but the sticky would be so nice.

Back in the early to mid 1970s, when I first got into practical pistol competition there were no classes. Everyone shot against everyone else. The one revolver shooter who threatened the auto pistols was a police officer from a neighboring town. He had a M-14 with a BoMar rib installed. Despite its 6" barrel length it was his duty gun, his PPC gun and his combat shooting gun. In several conversations with him I learned he gave up reloading when he found a ammo maker who would sell him custom 38 ammo loaded to his specifications and, since he bought 2000 rounds at a time it was cost effective.

I remember him telling me the load was a 158g RNL bullet over 3.5g of Bullseye. That was THE standard 38 Special loading in those days and had been for many years. In that revolver shooter's 6" Smith & Wesson it choreographed at 860 fps. He said in a 4" it would still top 800 fps by a respectable margin. And remember, this was a well known STANDARD load for the 38 Special. Nothing being said about "plus P" or plus anything else.

Today's +P is a joke, and that should be spelled with a capital "J".

Dave

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RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

Road dog, a quick question; I'm a newby both to the forum and to Smith & Wesson. Just Picked up a Model 36, 2" chiefs special, mfg 1969. Do you forsee any problems with +P's in a J frame, it is 95%, safe queen never fired.
Thanks for input..............Ken

He's dead.

GF

From the looks of the kitty it was feral and his Browning probably misfired.

Looked at some +P defense rounds today, the velocities listed on the box were similar to what the blog post described. I don't plan on shooting a large number through my 10-5, but will keep them around. I mainly am doing regular 38 target ammo anyway. I think the lighter loads are great for target practice.

I have a model 36 no dash and I been shooting +P ammo through the revolver on occasion. Remember the S&W manual says, any model S&W 38 special made 1958 or later is ok shoot +P ammo. My only concern would be a airweight. But I don't own any airweight revolvers. I own only steel revolvers.
Hope this helps,
roaddog28

My information on the USAF guns does not pertain to the mild M-41 load, very weak. The PGU round and possibly others were Plus P or beyond. They were developed after the M-41 proved weak in Vietnam. The Air Force wanted more power.

I corresponded with a project engineer for the JSSAP M-9 program and read the continuing test results in, Soldier of Fortune, which went into some depth on the matter.

I don't claim that Dr. Pig is all wet, just that various factors have to be considered in evaluating whether modern .38 ammo is weaker than it used to be. The change in measuring velocities and pressures is an important factor.

Firing BP ammo from around 1900. with no idea of how it was stored, will not necessarily indicate its true orginal velocity. But I did enjoy the links.

Actually, I asked some time back if standard .38 Special ammo from the 1920's was hotter than now, because I armed a character in fan fiction wth a five-inch barrelled M&P, and wondered what velocity she'd have been getting. I guessed maybe 875- 900 FPS, and that seems to jive with what I can learn. That was with smokeless loads.

I do fire Plus P ammo, and don't think that most is loaded really hot. But if the manufacturer says in a blanket statement not to do it or void any warrenty, I think it's wise to shoot it only in guns with a model number stamped in the frame, as the factory recommends.

Keep in mind that many of those AF M-15's were range guns, heavily used. Also remember that the USAF wanted to make the situation look as bad as possible, to prove to bureaucrats that they needed a new handgun that would deliver the ballistics they wanted. NATO standardization was a factor, but not enough that it hadn't been rejected before. The powers that be just said that there were too many .45 autos on hand to warrant a change to share ammo with allies.
By 1984-85, that was changing, and other arguments helped, too. We got the Beretta M-9.

I hope this clears up what I said. I had rather post on this myself, rather than see here what someone else says that I said.