Just a rant. I've purchased handguns off the Forum, Gunbroker, and AuctionArms over the last 12 years. I haven't kept stats, but I figure I'm about 50/50 with good deals and lemons. My lastest lemon is a S&W Md 15-4 from Gunbroker. Being an old AF cop who used Md 15s (yes I'm 60 now so its been a long time) I decided to get an older one and "relive" my youth. Or so I told myself. I found one on Gunbroker at a good price and the usual description of "this would make a good shooter" which is all I wanted. I failed to negotiate an "inspection period" since the pictures didn't look too bad (blueing wear mostly and a comment of minor pitting on the frame) and I found the auction late in the time period. I received the gun, cleaned it (don't believe the next time an ad says all this gun needs is a good cleaning), and shot it.

So, after my rant, I just sent this gun off to S&W today (expensive shipping for next day arrival as required shipping from a private individual). It seems the "shooter" has a fair amount of lateral play in the front of the cylinder and crane, a hole in the frame near the cylinder stop which is a lot more than "pitting", and a missing pin under the ratchet on the cylinder (the hole is there and fortunately the other pin is there). I had figured on re-blueing anyway but not so many fixes to make this safe to shoot. So now I await the cost to fix my "inexpensive shooter" to make it a safe and happy gun and one I can pass on to my kids. I think I might have been better off just buying one of the new "classic" Model 15s.

I should have known better. I promised myself a few years back to only do face-to-face deals after all the money I lost either fixing or re-selling with a correct description of the lemons in my later life, but I let "cheap" get the best of me. I guess one day I'll learn. Til then, I hope you guys don't mind an occasional rant.

Chris

Edit: I didn't expect such a large and varied set of replies. Thank you. I should have included in my original post that 50/50 included those items I felt were "over described" as one poster said of his. This includes "minor rust" or "a few shallow pits" that turned out to be a lot worse than that.

Chris

FYI-A "private" individual does NOT need to send the handgun overnight. There is no Fed law that requires it be sent overnight. UPS started overnight, 2 day air back during clinton< ( to appease someone?? ) but there is no federal law requiring it. UPS can make you send it 2-day since that is there policy, fed-ex will send ground,air depending on your location and if they even ask what it is. This seems like a gross misrepresentation of the item. I would have spoke to the seller,then GB if it not spelled out in description. You can have 5 mags in a photo and only get one if 5 is not listed, fortunately most sellers are straight up. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

Sorry to hear of your disappointment. Perhaps you will forget about the $$ after you have it all fixed up. Let us know how it turns out.

Ups requires next day to limit their own employees access to it in order to reduce chsnce of theft. Pretty sad that instead of hiring non criminals they screw their customers

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 4

I appreciate everyone's comments. I had S&W reblue an old Md 28 I had and it was beautiful. I'm hoping this Md 15 comes out just as nice.

As for shipping, I followed the instructions S&W sent me: "The gun will need to need to ship UPS or Fed EX overnight." I'm sure they have their reasons so I just followed the instructions.

I suppose I could have asked Gunbroker to arbitrate for me, but I've found it's more frustration than it's worth doing that. And leaving negative feedback ends up in a peeing contest as I've seen withothers. As an aside, a way back I had trouble with a S&W Forum purchase I made. The seller not only wouldn't take my calls, he didn't answer any e-mails. I ended up selling that gun for parts to a local gunsmith. That was before the forum allowed you to post feedback.

As folks say, buyer beware. As for me, I think Forest Gump said it best: "Stupid is as stupid does". I guess sometimes I'm just too stupid for my own good.

Take care and enjoy the rest of the summer.

I am very sorry you have had such bad experiences on the internet auction sites.

For me, I've never bought a lemon. 27 transactions on Gunbroker, mostly as a buyer, one on one other site.

If your lemon rate is 50% you really should stick to FTF transactions. But it's your money, do as you wish.

By not leaving negative feedback when deserved, you ensure the seller can fleece the next buyer.

Sorry to hear it. I've only sold on GB and swear eveytime will be my last, mostly thanks to buyers who dont read the listing and think shipping a handgun is as simple as dropping in a mailbox. Plus a LOT of aggravation with local FFLs since UPS & Fed Ex made it cost-prohibitive to ship them myself.

I pick up my first GB purchase tonight, a 66-4.

May not pay to fix. Just sell it and buy a better version would be my suggestion.

I've had one lemon from GB. Contacted the seller and told him I had already sent it back. After an insulting reply, accusing me of a bunch of stuff he eventually gave me my money back. Other than that, what I've bought was pretty much what I expected. Guess I've been lucky.

Dave

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RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

FTF is hard to do without lots of time to shop & look. Plus online prices appear better than local. I dunno where folks find their local deals. I'm in Texas, where we like our six-guns:-)

My GB purchase is only my 3rd online buy. The other two were from reputable dealers, one bought new on GA.

I would never consider bidding on anything but "shooter grade" on GB. Too easy to fake collectibles online.

sorry to hear of your situation. hope you left the seller an appropriate F in the feedback section. I have bought several on the internet sites and have sent back two that I felt were "overdescribed."

It will and even if it cost as much as a new 15, yours will be better. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

cporfe: Sorry to hear about the difficulty. I have over 300+ transactions 3/4 buying, 1/4 selling. I ask a lot of questions, make calls, and make sure it is right, and I have only had one mistake sent that was replaced. I have 46 transactions on AA and 10 have been major problems, wrong gun, caliber, the item not there after the auction, so I avoid all except CAF sales, great deals, great description, fast reasonable shipping. I called them and jokingly ask where the scratches were that they said were on the gun!!! Best of luck. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

Only guns i've bought online have been on this Forum.
Not a bad experience yet. And sooner or later the model
you are looking for will turn up for sale on here if patient.
A model 15 goes up for sale here about every other
day. Look for members who have been here awhile and are
regular contributors. Prices are mostly fair here and you can
always contact the member and make a counter offer if you
believe it to be too high and its not marked "firm".
I've bought my best Smiths thru contacts on here.
Don't waste your time on Funbroker.
Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

I have been lucky enough to have never had an issue with Gun Broker. in fact I just bought a very very nice mod 29-2. UPS on the other hand has been a nightmare. Their current policy says that they need a copy of the FFL of the person/company that you are sending the firearm too. I went 2 out of three falls trying to explain to the person that that is not fed law. Seems it is UPS policy. It wasn't hard telling the counter person that I will be going to FEDEX. When I went there to FEDEX I had no issue and it went right out. S&W were the folks who asked to have the weapon I was getting repaired shipped overnight

The less the amount of time a package lies around lessens the chance that somebody will have a chance to steal it.

Maybe you will get lucky, and once the repairs are done you will have a firearm worthy of handing down and something to be proud to own.

DR

I've bought and sold plenty of guns on gunbroker, and the best thing you can do is communicate with the seller before bidding. How quickly a seller replies is a big sign to me regarding how up front they are about any issues a gun may have. I wouldn't buy pristine safe queens online, but then again, I don't buy pristine safe queens period. The only time I really felt like a gun was misrepresented to me was a Ruger Single Six convertible that would "push off". But I'm fairly handy and installed a new hammer and trigger... problem solved. I didn't even bother contacting the seller, mainly because I got it cheap due to the shortened barrel. It is one of my favorite 22 pistols that I own, so in the long run, I did just fine.

The auction sites can and are a great source but you have to be careful. I've always had a more positive experience on the old Auction Arms now renamed GunAutions and their rules require the seller to give a 3 day inspection. Gunbroker is bigger and has more sellers so I just avoid the ones who specify "as is no refunds" for those who offer a reasonable inspection time. It always pays to as questions and check feedbacks.

There aren't many shops close to me with good used sections, so finding vintage smith's is impossible. So I use gunbroker and have had positive experiences so far. Just picked up a 34-1 4" barrel in nickel and its in better condition than I could tell from the pics. Was $625 buy now shipped. I'm happy.

I see a lot of ragging on Gunbroker but remember, they are only the means that get a seller and a buyer together. It ain't their gun! Communication between buyer and seller will usually give you the feeling if the deal will go well. Any of the auction type sites can be used to fleece someone and I see no obligation on the guy that runs the site other than maybe banning someone with lots of negatives so as to alleviate another buyer getting scammed. But all a seller has to do is open a new account or go to another site. Buyer beware... and do your homework!

Chris, it is normally less expensive to have a local FFL do the shipping for you. They can use the USPS mail and send the gun for you cheaper than you can via the UPS or FEDEX robbers!!

BJ

Never had a problem with GB but I will only buy from a seller with A LOT of good feedback. That's the key, a seller with no deals might be good and probably is but how do you know. In NJ our local gun store selections are poor so we really depend on the online sites for good quality and variety.
It's not GB fault it's the seller.

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Back to back World War Champs.

That's true Chuck, I have returned several over the years that were not up to snuff, sometimes sellers fail to mention holes drilled and tapped, my latest minor disappointment, a sling mount under the barrel of a gorgeous old rifle, but it shoots like a house on fire and the seller gave me a deal, so more or less very cool. I did purchase a pre-27 from a fellow forum member that did have pits and bluing was not the 98%, when returned to him, he sold it at a gunshow that weekend for 2/3s value and attempted to send me that, the forum moderated an equitable solution for us both, and I ended up with the rest of my money minus shipping. I am picky, and I tell sellers that up front, I always ask for a 3 day inspection, and 99% of forum members are very honest and fair, always a good idea to talk on the phone, that way you both have an idea of who you are dealing with, and I always try to give the seller the benefit of the doubt, but I was a little fired up with the pre-27. The Forum is a very safe place to buy and sell as long as everyone is clear up front, and I can't say enough good things about S&W Chad, and our other moderators, great guys one and all. billy

I got one going now that got my Postal M.O.'s but refuses to answer ANY messages. I have NO idea if I will ever see it. I will NEVER buy from ANYONE with less than 100 feedbacks............EVER.......NEVER. It was $800 but could be worse.Learned my lesson

Ive bought 15 or so off of the auction sites and one was a real lemon.Up until then I used money orders.Since then I prefer a credit card.You really have no recourse if a crooked seller gets a money order from you,with a credit card you can dispute the charge.

Happened to me before as well,I just kept E-Mailing him stating that I will be filing a report with my local police dept. and filing Federal mail fraud charges if I do not hear back from them in 24hrs.That usually brings them back to reality and I ended up getting a nice model 19-4 with all the goodies for $500 shipped.

I've both bought and sold on line a couple of fellas have been pains but mostly good experiences. These are my rules.

Never buy anything that does not have good clear pics from multiple angles and a good description. If pics aren't good ask for more. If no, no.

Ask questions if you don't know for sure!

Does the buyer or seller have feedback? How many feedbacks?

Only FFL to FFL. I want to know who the fellas FFL is. I may give the FFL a call. If I'm gonna ship a gun to an address I want to know where and what it is. Sometimes I ask the FFL if they know the fella.

Always an inspection period! Always a right to return! Always offer the same. If I sell a gun the buyer has the right to return it for any reason at all up to 7 days after they receive it and they get their money back. It's important the fella get a square deal, more important than a few hundred dollars.

tipoc

I have done a number of buys and sales on GB. I always give a call (unless I have lost my better judgement and just hit buy it now) for a purchase. Invariably I have questions and if not I'll make some up. I like to assess the individual.

I have bought and old many items on GunBroker with zero problems but like on EBay I only buy from sellers with good feedback and when I sell I shoot high resolution pictures so hopefully there are no surprises. In case of any problems with buyers I work them out often giving refunds that we agree on which has only happened twice in some 25+ sales up there and they left me positive feedback.
By not leaving accurate feedback you are only helping bad sellers to continue to deceive buyers.

Why would you care who the FFL is? Once the gun is delivered to him you are out of the picture. It is the BUYER who picks where HE wants it sent.

+ whatever on asking questions and paying attention to how fast and responsive the replies are. Ask for more pics if needed. Talk to the guy on the phone if possible.

For you all saying "never buy unless over 100 positive feedbacks", how am I supposed to sell off a couple of pistols?

My ffl offers mail-in gun repair. A handgun sent off by him costs $10 USPS. FEDEX-UPS money goes for repairs and not to line the pockets of the rich man

HUMMMMM !
I think to many expect a guilded bird cage for the price of just a bird cage. I know when I purchase shooters I expect the worse---so far I have not gotten the worse--but some of them were in deed in need.
I prepare myownself for this as I generally have a plan of action for the old shooter anyway.
Projects are fun and I have never got one that could not be made as good as new----though, I am sure that day will come.
Blessings

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TEXAS, by GOD

I want to thank everyone for taking the time to make comments. I didn't think this rant of mine would have leg like this but I suppose it does show that a lot of us Forum folks buy on-line like me.

I have many faults but in this particular area being too passive has been my downfall. I should be more assertive (assuming I spelled the word right) and I wouldn't be unhappy as much.

I must give a shout out to a gentlemen who frequents this forum and the NRA range in Fairfax, VA. He goes by Big John and I have sold and purchased from him. I can say without a seconds reservation that he is a truly fine person, excellent person to deal with, and extremely knowledgeable. If everyone I dealt with in my regular job were like Big John, I'd be a lot less grayer in the hair and a good bit happier in my work.

Thanks again.

Chris

I have purchased about a dozen guns on Gunbroker without issues. Generally if I am at all disappointed with a purchase, I can look back and realize that, the price was lower than I should have expected to pay, and second, that I didn't scrutinize the ad well enough or ask any questions. I have, however picked up some great buys on the auction site.

A point of note for those of you who buy on the auction sites. I read that if you use a US Postal Service money order, and send payment by mail, that the post office will prosecute a seller for mail fraud if he fails to complete the transaction. The article indicated that the Postal Service will definitely intercede in these types of instances....I have never had an issue that required that. The only time I had any problem whatsoever was buying a handgun from a private individual who did not want to provide my FFL with a drivers license...finally go that one thru. LIke the others, I am careful about checking feedback first.

If this is a gunbroker deal you have some fraud protection to fall back on.

GunBroker.com are covered for amounts up to $500 with a $100 deductible against fraud. For example, if the winning bid price is $500, you are eligible to receive $400 in the unlikely event of fraud. Every GunBroker.com buyer is automatically covered at no charge

I find this somewhat comforting when I stick a M/O in the mail.

Just saying.

Of course it's the buyer. I don't care where or who I just want to know it exists.

My name, after all, is on the gun.

When a person buys a gun from me I need an address for the FFL he wants me to send it to so I ask for that information and the phone number of the place. I go through my FFL to his because my name is on the gun. My FFL, in order to ship the gun needs the FFL's number and a copy of his license to ship the gun to him legally. It takes just a couple of minutes to verify that a gunatorium is at an address. the internet or a phone call do that.

That rigamarole means that I know that where I'm shipping a gun with my name on it is an actual place where my name will get off it and another fellas go on the paperwork. I like to make sure my gun is not being sent to some guys sister in law's house and, with me as the legal owner, end up in a bank robbery. It may end up there anyway but my name will be off it.

I also like to know in cases where a person sounds hincky to me for some reason. Not enough to cancel the deal but just a little bit.

I always tell a fella why I want it and I always give him the name of my FFL where I'm shipping from. That way he, or she, can feel more confident that things are on the up and up.

tipoc

Chris,
Thanks for your insight. Although I have gotten what I
expected from G-B, I always knew there was a chance that
I would get less than what I expected. It is in
my mind everytime I bid; I set the funds aside, knowing that
I might have to buy another to replace/fix a lemon.
Most people wouldn't want to discuss getting screwed;
thanks for reminding me that all is not perfect in this world.
TACC1

The seller's name is not recorded in the receiving ffl's atf book. 0nly the name of the ffl who sent the gun..

I've never been "surprised" by anything bought on GB, except in a positive way. Every gun I've bought was accurately pictured and described. I have seen a few that I was very suspicious of, and seemed too good to be true. A friend of mine was screwed over on a S&W 19 about a year ago, the pics were very well done to hide every flaw on it. After a lot of back and forth, he got a refund, so all he was out was the $10 cost of his FFL shipping it back. The gun had wax all over it, covering a lot of cosmetic flaws.

Your experience is the exception not the rule. Pete

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NRA LIFE 1974

20-year UPS pilot here. Actually, because UPS people handle other peoples' valuables so often, absolute honesty is essential. The unions go along with the policy as well, because a single thief will cost jobs for all of us.

I don't agree with every policy either. Think what you want to, but if you don't know what you're talking about, then don't.

Yea, and UPS has the highest theft rate of guns compared to ALL the other carriers. I don't use them.

Well then visit ANY UPS store. They will tell you that the 'overnight policy' is BECAUSE of employee theft.

I've always wondered about that UPS policy. I've done 98% of my shipping with FedEx. Honestly, I don't know what the UPS policy really is, but UPS not trusting their employees always sounded a bit off to me. FedEx is just my habit. I've had good experiences with both outfits.

I had a customer recently who was more than willing to call the whole deal off if I used FedEx. He really hated them. I was nervous because it seemed we were getting off on the wrong foot, but he received his item UPS and was happy.

In the old days, not every package was individually tracked, and virtually none on the ground side. Since everything on the air side is tracked, I suspect that the policy was originally implemented to assure positive tracking. Now that every package is tracked, ground and air, I don't know why they keep it, except that it might just be a profit maker. It would not surprise me if they did away with it to keep up with the competition.

In the meantime, one system is not more protected against employee theft than another. Every package is tracked. Every employee gets a background check. Every instance of theft not only results in immediate termination, the company provides all the evidence to local police to assist in prosecution.

In a company of 430,000 people, of course a few bad apples get through the screening. Overall, I'd match UPS employees against almost any other group (excluding church groups, my blood is not that brown) for personal honesty.

If you don't want to ship UPS, then don't. Let's get the theft BS off the table, because it's just not supported by the facts.

Can we talk about guns now?

I'm with ya there FloridaFlier. Gawd, I love my 28-2 Highway Patrolman.

The last few used guns I have bought have been from this forum, and not a one has been anything but what was promised. Only one was face to face - we both had to drive about 80-odd miles.

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NHI, 10-8.