Hi members, im new to this forum, but followed many posts on here for the last year. Now I decided to join to ask you fellows for some advice and hopefully in the future I can reflect the knowledge to others on this site.

Anyway, to get to my questions about this newly acquired Smith 19-3 (ser# 2k10***). Purchased this one on GB as Excellent condition, come to find not so in my opinion. When I received it, I noticed the cylinder has consistent scratching and realized that it would contact the frames top strap while closing the cylinder. Would S&W's QC let this really slide?

Second issue, in SA, the cylinder has slop to no slop on individual rounds. Is this a out of time issue or cylinder alignment cuts out of place?

Judging by the forcing cone and wear on the rifling this one does show very little signs of use. With me not being the original owner, S&W's customer service most likely will not help me out, agreed?

I know i probably paid too much for a sight unseen 19 ($600), judging by the photos, I did not notice any implications, and assumed it was a high 95%. Just maybe some of you guys have been here and know of an alternative to solve these issues without spending a loot on top of original purchase. Im at the point i might resell and take a loss, but would not want another buyer to be unhappy if this is unacceptable.

Oh, one last thing....Do any of you know what that spade stamp is on the crane? I have not ever seen this before. Take a look at the photos i have loaded. Thanks guys and gals!

I would return it...It obviously isnt right...You can see the scratches on the cylinder everytime it gets opened and closed....Was this described in the Gunbroker ad...If not contact the seller and ask for a refund...If he hassles you...Go to gunbroker...Something like this should be disclosed in the ad....and you should be protected...

I do not know if Smith would honor a warranty, but Im sure they would fix it for you...Good Luck

Jim, I made the mistake and already accepted this after the 3 day accepted return. I did not look at it close enough to know the cylinder was contacting the frame. I assumed it was from storage on flat surface.

Also, no the seller did not go into detail with this. I called the pawn shop before i sent payment, they said " it has light marks for its age, but is in great shape", but did not mention any mechanical drawbacks.

Oh well...It happens...Darn...

I would not fire it till you find out why its doing what its doing...I would make a phone call to Smith and explain you have a 19-3 and that you would like them to take a look at the problem...They will tell you the next steps...Maybe you get a good rep and they will do it under warranty...Not sure...But I am sure they will fix the issue...But it might be at your expense...

THe only thing that can cause scratches in that location is a bent top strap or a cylinder that has bulged chambers. A bent top strap can be detected with a straight edge, and so can bulged chambers.. In either case, it needs to be fixed.

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Tom
1560

I'm betting the M-19 has a sprung crane from some idiot "wrist flipping" the cylinder closed numerous times. Find an experienced gunsmith who knows S&W revolvers to diagnose and fix your M-19 before trying to shoot it.

For what its worth, I just passed on a 90% plus Colt Official Police Heavy Barrel with King Super Sight rib because it noticed rub marks on the middle of the cylinder with a corresponding mark on the top strap. Nothing hitting now, however the side plate screws were buggered leading me to believe a basement 'gunsmith' worked on the old Colt. Had I not examined it several times, in person, I would have never noticed the evidence of a past and potential future problem.

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Virtue,Liberty & Independence

When zooming in on your pics, in pic #6 it looks as the yoke does not fit flush or aligned with the frame. I think the yoke might be bent out or down whatever the proper term might be. Maybe just the angle of the pic. Sprung is the word I was looking for.

Very nice looking gun. I can see why you bid on it. I'm sure the seller had the scratched cylinder well hidden in all of the sales pics. Some have no conscience. Right now it seems the Factory is giving priority to all warranty repairs. Performance Center work and non warranty work seems to follow. Quite a wait as it stands now. I sent a M 10 in early June and haven't heard nothing as of yet. Some here have quoted a 9 month wait. Good luck and keep us filled in.

Looking at the pictures, if the top strap was bent or the crane out of alignment, all the chambers would/should show the markings. It appears from the pictures at at least two chambers have been bulged.

This is one good reason to pay for internet items by credit card. In the event of a dispute, the credit card company can freeze the account of the allegedly offending party.

If you did this through Gun Broker, you need to contact them if direct contact with the seller doesn't resolve the issue.

Do contact S&W, I'd request a ballpark guesstimate of cylinder replacement to prepare you for worse case scenario.

Wow... that sucks. Somebody messed up a nice revolver.

I suspect the price/time to repair will be prohibitive. It would have to have serious sentimental value to be even considered.

In an honest sale, it is worth maybe half of what you paid.

I doubt the seller is going to help, but you should send them an email detailing the true condition of the pistol.

Gunbroker protects the buyer up to 500 dollars if the ad is misleading and doesnt represent the item correctly.. 3 day period or not..

IMHO, from your pictures, the yoke is bent out of alignment. I don't believe that the cylinder is bulged or that the top strap is bent, but they should be checked. Most good S&W revolver mechanics can fix the problem using the correct tools and a few light taps with a ball peen hammer on a plastic wedge. If you are in the LV area, I would fix it for you just to show you it can be done. Don't dispair! That handgun is still worth about what you paid for it. ......... Big Cholla

Terrible that this occurred, both the damage to a beautiful S&W as well as a seller who would pass it on to a new owner without disclosing the true condition. C'mon, man. The seller knew the deal.
If this seller refuses to cooperate can his/her info be revealed here?

Yes...He can put a link to the closed auction on here...

Could be my ancient eyes, but the top strap looks bent to me. Maybe some yayhoo dropped it and it landed on the rear sight ?? In any event, Smith & Wesson could certainly fix it. Let us know how it shakes out !! Mike

I was going to say that the top strap in the true side views looks flat as a flitter but the crane does look bent.

And tell them the so described 'light scratches' were caused by a MAJOR problem with the cylinder alignment.

That is a nice looking gun! I am not sure that I am seeing the cause of your grief as well as some of the other guys- but I am relatively sure you problem was not caused by the factory. It was caused by some bad owner activity. Not necessarily on purpose. But the results are the same, a malfunctioning gun.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

Bulged cylinder I'd guess from the evidence.
Two chambers only scraping the top strap and at a point almost midway along the cylinder.

A bent crane could tip the cylinder up (or down) so that the very end of it could hit all the way around,,not make the cylinder hit the top strap at it's mid way point.
A bent top strap would effect all the chambers of the cylinder unless it's a very poorly polished one.
,,,plus the center pin most likely would not lock into position in the frame & bbl anymore w/a crane bent that much. A little you can do to adj timing especially on a Colt, but that's going too far.

The crane may indeed be bent along with the cylinder being buldged.
You should most likely be able to see a shadow inside the chamber(s) involved though it can be hard to pick out sometimes.

Just lay a straight edge along the cylinder and hold it up to the light,,it'll tell you yes or no right off it it's bulged.
JMHO

Well, thank you all for your replies, by listening in to what you have to say. I just checked the flatness of cylinder and top strap with a new razor blade (this is the only true measuring tool of size i have). It revealed the cylinder is raised at the scrape marks on all six and that the top strap is bowed down/machined uneven at the points of contact. Now this is on partial closed cylinder, not on full close.

Given the lack of use this M19 displays. I find it hard to be a bulged cyl from fire, like some of you say. And that the top sight shows no signs of being dropped to where it would bend that chunk of steel. Which leads me to think it is a factory shove out the door.

I did contact the seller before payment and after i looked at the gun and was close to sending it back for the shipping charge, but didnt. Now closer review tell me i should have due to mechanical issues. Either way i own it now. They told me prior to purchase that their was no scratching on the cylinder, just dust scratches. Smith & Wesson 19-3 S&W 357 4" Barrel 6 Round : Revolvers at GunBroker.com

I also talked to a CS at S&W, since im not the original owner it would not be a debate for warranty, and yes i would then not see the firearm for a year. But then how would they know it was not a grandfathers inheritance or similar? Not really interested in replacing the serialized cylinder if its not bulged.


****** machine job, ejector tip just contacts shroud.















I know your thinking these are different 19's with all the different grips. Same gun just all the different grips i wanted to try on and different photo shoots.

there were some issues with bulged cylinders during the time period of your gun. at one time smith would replace them for free. I had one that was bulged out of the box. something about the steel not being properly heat treated I think was the reason.

If they have any cylinders left at all, I am sure they will not be recessed, so you will not have an original type cylinder. I would try to find a replacement recessed cylinder to install before sending it back to Smith. They do show up from time to time.

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Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

perrazi, your kidding...really? I find it so hard to believe they would ship these out this way. S&W sent me a RMA for return, now would you think they would charge me for a repair if it is a manufacture defect? Im afraid to send the gun in and pay for a defect it has had its whole life.

With the straight edge the cylinder bulges, exactly the same for this one. I just could not fathom in this pistols case that it happened from use.

Yeah, i would like to try and keep the cylinder that has its serial stamped under the ejector. If only they could lathe down the highs and refinish...but that would be too much to ask.

Or maybe i would be better off sourcing a reputable gunsmith and having them repair it the right way?

What a shame.The one lemon I bought on GB also came from a pawn shop and no GB does not back the buyer up in these situations.Caveat emptor and use a credit card.

If it is a factory flaw,they will replace it with a model 19 cylinder,if they have any.

It looks to me as if the frame is bowed on the top strap. That can happen if it were dropped in the factory or someone over heated the frame when polishing it prior to it being blued. All FACTORY defects that will NOT be covered by today's S&W. As for how this could happen, people who complain about today's QC have no idea how bad it was during some periods during the Bangor Punta ownership.

The lack of use on the rest of the gun leads me to believe that the Gun has been like this for a long time.It has probably been past from person to person its whole life.

Yep and each previous owner got rid of it after discovering the damage and cost/possibility of getting it fixed.

Isn't the first nor will it be the last fine gun ruined by OMG reloads.

In pictures 5 and 6 it appears that the crane is bent/out of alignment, torqued in the direction of the barrel. If this is the problem I have no idea why there is a misalignment on only two of the charge holes.

I’ve been wrong many times before, but I don’t think Smith and Wesson will work on or attempt to fix discontinued firearms; way to much potential liability if something went wrong.

I would either ask the seller for a full rebate or a substantial discount..

Best of luck

In the GB auction In the second pic I can see scratching on one of the cylinders so they lied to you that it was dust. I would call the pawn shop and have a talk with them. Hopefully you haven't left feedback for them. The top strap does appear to have a slight bend in it.

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Get off my lawn!

Just an update with my decision to solve this issue. For one, I decided to email S&W a detailed description of the issues with these photos. All I received was an automated RMA to send in the firearm for repair. So I called their customer service for further insight as to what charges would be on me or a warranty fix. Obviously, like all of you have said they would not cover this any longer as a factory fault, even if deemed a manufacture fault.

So I ended up rigging a devise to tweak the top strap just a hair upwards to allow clearance of the cylinder as it closes. I posted a picture of the method I chose and it worked flawlessly as Intended it to. Basically a mini ball bearing screw jack to apply necessary tension required to bend the topstrap up. All in all its fixed to my acceptance and will serve to be a fine shooter. Thanks everyone for the advice!!!

I love your solution. Simple, elegant, and it works. BTW, I really can't fault today's S&W for not covering this, the ownership of the company when your revolver was made was totally unrelated to today's owners. Back in the 70's Bangor Punta also had a pretty miserable reputation with some of the dealers I had contact with and they really complained a lot about how S&W had let the quality tank on the revolvers. Had one dealer show me a model 19 with the face of the cylinder so far off square you could see it easily without even spinning the cylinder.

If keeping send it to Smith & Wesson they will make it NEW for you, the cost will be probably about $300 to $375, wait time 3 months.

I too have heard impressive things about what S&W can do when the customer requests a refurbish. One caveat, though: turnaround is taking them a lot longer at present; they're quoting about 9 months just to inspect -- longer to repair and return.

Yeah they told me a year wait time....Might end up being true. The condition of the revolver is pretty good otherwise. It would be nice to send it in to make look like a queen again. But then I would save it in the safe and would not be as fun.

Pretty slick, that's using the ol' noggin for more than a place to hang a hat.
Your WESCOG* certificate should be in the mail by now




*Wiley E. Coyote School of Gunsmithing

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Okay, you apparently fixed the top strap, but what about the bulged chambers in the cylinder? If they are bulged, you will have a difficult time extracting spent brass, and the cylinder would be weaker due to the bulged chambers. I think you will have a hand grenade in your hand if you shoot it.

He could get a small telescopic hole gauge and check them. Or fire it with mild loads and check the brass. Difficult extraction would be a clue and a good caliber would find a bulged case.

I got curious and just checked several S&W cylinders I have laying around and none of them where completely true. Measurement in center was not the same as the ends and varied some as I rotated to each set of holes.

Example a perfectly good Mod 25-2 45acp cylinder

#1 rim 1.6960 center 1.6985 throat 1.6970
#2 rim 1.6965 center 1.6990 throat 1.6965
#3 rim 1.6965 center 1.699 throat 1.6970

So all of them exhibited a .0025 bulge in the center

A K frame 38 cylinder exhibited a .0020 bulge in the center of all holes also

A 629 cylinder had .0015-.0020

This leads me to believe that it is not common for the cylinder to be slightly larger in the center than the ends, although a 45LC cylinder had a .0005 smaller center.

I hope no one minds if I piggy-back on this thread but I have a question. Looking at pic #3 the sight rib on the barrel appears to be mis-aligned with the sight rib on top of the frame. My P&R Model 19 has the same condition. No function problems or undue wear marks, but I wonder if it's a problem or a sign of a defect/damage. Any thoughts?

I hope no one minds if I piggy-back on this thread but I have a question. Looking at pic #3 the sight rib on the barrel appears to be mis-aligned with the sight rib on top of the frame. My P&R Model 19 has the same condition. No function problems or undue wear marks, but I wonder if it's a problem or a sign of a defect/damage. Any thoughts?

Looks like the barrel was not indexed properly during assembly.

Sight ribs can be mis-aligned for a variety of reasons. First reason is the frame may not have finished up perfectly even relative to the bore for mounting the barrel. Second is that the barrel may be "clocked" by intent to allow the gun to shoot to the sights with the load it's been regulated for. Back in the 30's and 40's S&W used to use a lead hammer to bend the frame a bit with the barrel mounted to regulate the sights, during the Bangor Punta era they probably clocked the barrel because it requires less skill than bending the frame. Third cause is a plain old Manufacturing Error, which was also rather common during the Bangor Punta era.

BTW, the reason I keep harping on the Bangor Punta ownership is because complaints about it were all I heard when I first got into shooting handguns. Seems that at the time the ranges and gunshops I visited regarded Bangor Punta about as highly as the AMF ownership of Harley Davidson. In simple terms, really poorly. However, we do need to remember that these "bad" owners did keep two great brands alive and actually produced more good product than they did lemons.

My thanks to JackM & Scooter.

To answer this one, I don't see the inner chambers being bulged from live fire. Just the outer cylinder I believe this is how they did it, correct me if im wrong.....Lathe the outside cylinder then polish it with buffing wheels to give the appearance a more roundish blue, rather than sharp. So as when this process is done it creates an uneven outer diameter, not like it just came off the lathe and would be true to the .001"across the outside radius of the cylinder.

I do have telescopic mic's, I did work for a engine machine shop in the past. I will check all inside chambers for when I bring them home from work.

I have purchased two N frame revolvers on Gunbroker that have had issues. One was a 45 Colt mountain gun and the other was a 25-2. The mountain gun shot perfectly with my relatively low dose target loads. One day I ran some factory ammo and almost had to use a mallet to extract. Notice I said "almost". I sent the gun in for repair and had it back several weeks later. No charge
The 25-2 was fully disclosed to me as having a timing issue by the seller. I was tempted to replace the hand myself but felt a nearly new fifty year old S frame was too nice a gun to possibly mess up. Again a trip to Springfield. The cost of repairs was about $150 and I feel the money was well spent.

If S&W gets a view of your jack for the top strap I believe any future warranty work will not be forthcoming. You may have fixed that part of the problem but it seems there are others. Your fix on the top strap is pretty ingenious but the lawyers could have a field day. That's not to say S&W would ever contest this thing because it's probably not worth their time. I would think they (S&W) would have fixed the gun on first notification but it's probably too late for that.

I would be interested in knowing how that gun got that way in the first place. Lots of speculation on that issue but we will likely never know.

Before you go to GB I would carefully read the informational portion of the ad as many sellers choose to note AS IS/NO RETURNS. I would say if the seller omitted that clause you can appeal to GB for help, unfortunately most of the experiences I have read about regarding customer support is that is is very poor to nonexistent. Good Luck

Welcome to the forum!

I always like it when somebody, to use a metaphor; "...sees a poisonous snake and just gets a stick and kills it:.

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But then, what do I know?

I wonder why, in all my years, I have never encountered, or even heard of, bulged cylinders before? Not to say they can't exist. I have seen a few catastrophic cylinder failures from double charges, etc., and also bulged barrels. But no bulged cylinders.

This has been a very informative thread, but am I the only one still curious about the spade marking?

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High Caliber History

The gun is pre-lifetime warranty ....and abused.No reason to think that S&W would take it on as any other than a chargeable repair.