Guys,

Have been looking at Model 19's with the 2.5" barrel. Got no money, but a guy can dream. Was wondering a couple things: how do they handle, are they tough to carry concealed, is the ejector rod long enough to clear the cases well, and what seems to be the going price for a halfway decent one without the box? Thanks in advance for your replies.

Don

The snubby 19 handles as well as the four inch model, at least IMHO, but is tough to conceal absent a good belt and holster combo. The ejector rod is short but a good smack w/the barrel pointed skyward will do the job. As to the going price that will vary w/the area you're in, but I'll allow others w/more knowledge weigh in on that.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Old Cop pretty much nailed it. I carry my snubby 66 in a Galco Combat Master high rise pancake that fits pretty snug next to my lower ribs and conceals well under a coat, but it does present concealment problems for me in warmer seasons, when wearing fewer layers. Price is a matter of condition and area. Check out Gunbroker and Guns International. If you're patient, you can usually find a deal you can live with. Good luck.

1) Best handling S&W ever, in my opinion -- it does everything well.

2) Depends on your frame, your carry rig and your choice of clothing. It can be done, but if you're lanky, like nylon holsters and flimsy dress belts, and wear skinny jeans and tight t-shirts, forget about it.

3) Stick with quality defensive .38 for carry and good technique and ejection will be fine.

4) A decent shooter-grade, gun only, starts around $500 and up in the current market. High quality shooter starts around $600. Add a little extra for pinned and recessed. NRA Modern Gun Condition Standards "excellent" or better, $700 and rising right now.

I bought a nickel 19-4 recently, near mint condition but no box/papers, for $600 and didn't feel cheated. This was at a local gun shop, so it was retail. It shoots and handles VERY well, almost as good as my 4 inch version. It is not, however, a pocket gun. You need a good belt and holster to carry and conceal it comfortably. Good luck in your search.

I would disagree with those saying it handles like a 4". Can't. Basic physics at work. The longer barrel adds weight and mass to the front. The longer barrel will "swing" onto the target. A 4" barrel is like pointing your finger. A 2" barrel is like pointing your fist. It's easier to shoot a longer barrel accurately. The short barrel is for concealment, it can't handle as well as a longer barrel gun.

Many members will now contradict me saying the 2" handles just like the longer ones. Try both and you tell me who is correct.

I have carried a 2.5" M19 and for me it sucked. Too heavy for my comfort level (which is admittedly low) and the adjustable rear sight was absolutely unmanageable. It hooked on clothing every time I drew it. IMO the fixed sight gun is far superior for concealed carry. In an openly worn holster there's no problem.

Understand that a whole bunch of guys will now line up and start posting comments about how wrong I am, how I don't know what I'm talking about, and how the snubs with adjustable sights are perfect for carry and the sights cause no trouble at all. You carry a revolver with an adjustable sight for a while and let me know if I am crazy.

I still have my 2.5" M19. I bought it because I thought it was a really cool gun. I was right, it was a really cool gun. Still is. But it didn't work out at all for me as a carry gun. But I can't tell you what you will be happy with, only you can do that.

Oh, and no, the ejector rod stroke will not clear 357 cases.

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No life story has happy end.

My goodness, SP. I just have to follow your post.
...and your post is a good outline for me to keep my responses straight, at least to me.

The thing that hooked me on a 2.5" 19 is the way the K-frame RB frame just fit.
It's always surprised me how accurate and how well a 2.5" 19 groups with such a short sight radius.
To me there's nothing like a 4" K but I'd rather have a 2.5" vs a 6".

I carry a 2.5" 19 but I won't advise that what works for me would work for you.

I read it all the time that the shorter ejector rod won't clear the .357 cases but I've never had a problem clearing the cylinder of empty .357 cases because of that. If they do get stuck in the cylinder, the longer ejecor rod of a 3", 4", or 6" wouldn't have helped. The problem was either the load or the chambers were dirty and the cases were stuck long before the length of the ejector rod would have helped.

However. Because I love the RB K-frame's fit and feel, and there ain't a ton of 4" and 3" RB Model 19's, I'll settle for a 2.5".

I like the 2.5" RB Model 19 but I love a 4" RB.

Well, for my 2 cents worth.

I have had my 19-2 for a couple of years. I find that it carries very nicely tucked into the 3:30 position. I have a small holster and a 1 3/4 inch belt that keeps the butt tight against my side.

I often carry it covered only with a large tee shirt.

Mine is the round butt which probably makes it ride just a little tighter than a square butt would.

I'm going to order a Milt Sparks PMK Model for it this year. That should carry just a little tighter than the holster I currently use.

Picture follows:

I think they're great. I have one for the off-duty revolver match for PPC and it shoots great.

As for carry, you can't get any better, IMO, for a K frame 38.357 for CCW

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Cheers, Charles
SWCA #2442

First of all, the standard barrel length on a snubby 19/66 is 2.5 inches (not 2 inches,) and it does handle quite well for those that have the determination to practice firing it. Point shooting/Reactive shooting is simple, and the snubby 19/66 has accuracy that is only limited by the skill of the person firing it. It wasn't designed to be a long range target handgun; however, it more than fulfills the requirements of a close to intermediate range defensive handgun very well.

Second, I am constantly amazed that those who condemn adjustable sights for snagging on clothing will conceal carry a revolver or semi-auto with an exposed hammer that has just as much potential for snagging on clothing (if not more.) Drawing a handgun is just as much a skill as accurately firing a handgun. It requires a good holster/belt combination, as well as proper technique and practice...regardless of the presence or absence of adjustable sights.

As for ejecting .357 casings from a short barrel 19 or 66, that has already been covered in an earlier post. The proper technique requires the shooter to release the cylinder, point the muzzle to the sky, and strike the ejector rod sharply with the dominant hand; then, .357 casings will fly out of the cylinder chambers. Those of us who duty carried 19 and 66 K Frames were taught how to use that technique the first day at the range. Anybody with two hands and normal coordination can master the technique.

Finally, I understand that not every handgun is suited to every user, but if you seriously want to learn how to competently handle a particular handgun model, all it takes is a little dedication and practice. The 16/66 snubby is worth the effort. I bought mine 23 years ago without ever having fired one, and it was a perfect fit for me right out of the box. If you have doubts, I'd suggest that you borrow one or rent one for range use before making a final decision.

Okay, I'll head up the line. But to concur, actually.

I bought a 2.5" 19-5 to carry. However, I found that most of the points in the above post were valid for myself, and I soon started carrying a Ruger SP101 instead. Recently I replaced that with a Colt Detective Special.

I still have (and love) my 19. It goes into the suitcase when we travel, just to have along.

As far as holsters, I carried all the above in Galco Combat Masters. So far, I haven't found a CC holster that works any better.

I found having the right kind of grips for "carry" makes a big difference.

In my opinion, the 2 1/2" K frame .357 was designed with divine intervention from St. John Moses Browning.

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"I am constantly amazed that those who condemn adjustable sights for snagging on clothing will conceal carry a revolver or semi-auto with an exposed hammer that has just as much potential for snagging on clothing (if not more.)"

You're right. Notice something about my carry guns?






As for the instructions on how to clear the 19 when reloading, the OP's question was will the ejector rod clear the 357 case? Answer is, it won't. Not unique to the short 19 by any means but I simply answered his question.

On handling, anyone arguing that a 2.5" barrel points as well as a longer one is going on perception. The reality is that a longer barrel will point more naturally and acquire the target more quickly. No competition shooter would argue this point for a second. Target pistols have long barrels for a reason. Snubbies are more difficult to shoot accurately. I don't know how anyone can seriously dispute this notion. Please note that I did not say they can't shoot accurately, I said it's harder to do so.

Like I said a couple times in my response, you need to try it to see if it works for you. Nobody can tell another man if he will like a gun. I was unhappy with the 19 for concealed carry and I explained why. Doesn't mean somebody else won't find it ideal (as some guys apparently do).

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No life story has happy end.

I had a magna ported one that wore pachmeyer grips. Best carry revolver I ever owned.

A good holster is paramount for carry. I got a call yesterday from Milt Sparks that my order for a PMK is now being shipped. Ordered it on the 22nd of Sept and should arrive early next week. Their estimated times are very accurate and updated often so you know exactly the status of your order. Great folks to deal with for sure.

I was issued a 2 1/2" Model 66 when I was working in the Homicide unit in the early 80s. It carried well and I never felt under gunned. A stout 1 3/4" belt and a good holster made carrying all day and off duty reasonably comfortable. Accuracy was more than adequate for its intended purpose, which is self defense. I think the 4" vs 2 1/2" accuracy comparison is a moot point under the circumstances.
Like Ranger 514 said, ejecting cases is more a matter of technique than ejector rod length. I never experienced any problems. I will say recoil is brisk with full power .357 mag loads and muzzle blast is distracting on night shoots.
I liked that gun so much that I bought a 19-2 2 1/2" that I still have. Recently, in a fit of nostalgia, I've been on the hunt for another 66. The whole ying and yang thing intrigues me.
A Tyler T-Grip makes a world of difference in handling and control. All my round butt S&W's wear T-grips - plus, they're just old school cool!
After 32 years in law enforcement, I know what works for me. That's just my opinion.

This thread is a great example of how our experience with a particular gun can be highly subjective. We have SP, who is one of the more knowledgeable posters on this forum, saying that the snub 19 just didn't work for him. We also have SNW19, another very knowledgeable member, singing the praises of the same gun (his screen name might reflect a bit of bias). I respect both of their opinions, and neither of them are wrong. All I can say is that I have 2 19-4s, a 4 inch and a 2 1/2 inch, have shot both, and can shoot the snub almost as well as the 4 inch at normal defensive distances of 7 to 15 yards. I agree, however, that the snub doesn't always eject .357 cases as cleanly as the 4 inch, even using the proper technique.

The RB snub K frames handle like a dream, at least for my hands. Yes magnums do kick, but the sights fall right back on target. As someone else already said there was divine intervention involved when designing the 2.5" 19.

Ejection has never been an issue for me. Just tip the gun up, give it a good positive stroke and they all fly out. It's the guys that try to catch their brass that seem to have trouble.

Prices are all over the place. About 8-10 months ago I got a snub 19-3 in very good condition with the original grips but no box for a straight across trade. The gun I traded I had paid $700 for an I was happy seeing as I was not using it and fell in love with the 19. In fact I liked it so much that I really wanted a second one and found another 19-3 on Gunbroker for $475. The seller had some really fuzzy pictures posted on the auction which I think hurt the bids, but the gun was in as good a shape as the one I already owned. It cost my $25 shipping and a $30 FFL transfer, but at $530 out the door I felt like the luckiest guy.

Edit: Forgot to answer your question regarding concealment. I pack my 19 in a Lobo horsehide IWB holster. I use pants that are a little large in the waist, and have a heavy leather belt meant for concealed carry. The 19 packs nicely all day, no printing, sure I feel it but then again I have never been one of those people that claims to forget they even have a gun.

I carry a M19 2 1/2" nearly every day. There are valid points on both sides of the aisle here. Any shortcomings that a gun may have can be overcome with training and practice. For my particular application, it never snags on my clothes, but points very naturally. I do not have issues with the ejector rod doing it's job, but mine is loaded with 38+P's, which are a bit shorter.

Whether it's superior to a 4", that's largely subjective and everyone's opinion will vary. I have a 4" as well, but I don't carry it, I use it as a range gun. I believe that any K frame in 2 1/2" is an excellent carry gun, but I have a good carry rig and I practice with it. Any gun can be made to work. Bottom line, if you like it, and it works for you, carry it.

I feel compelled to add that that if you're going to carry, you MUST get a good carry belt and holster.

I bought a concealed carry belt from Bullhide Belts dot com.
1/4" thick, single layer leather. Stiff as hell, yet very comfortable, with or without a gun/holser on it.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

I bought the one below in 1975 and carried it everyday, all day on duty, for quite a few years. Then carried it off duty a lot since that time. I also have a 4" 66 that I carried for a bit. The 2.5" points a lot better for me that the 4" because of the round butt. It's a great shooter and one of my favorites. I also have a 2.5" 66 that's out on loan right now to a friend. He's been carrying it everyday for the past couple of years. I really need to get it back now that I think about it. He was just going to try it out to see if he liked it. I guess he does since he still has it.
As far as the sights hanging up, if they do then get a different holster. A properly designed holster makes a world of difference. Sure, a fixed sight gun has less to snag but with a properly designed holster it's not a big deal.

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183rd FBINA

I can't add much to what has already been said here. Carry weapons are given to a wide personal choice. I like my 19-3 / 2-1/2" but prefer to carry my smaller J frame M-36 for CC. The 19 is just too large here in the south where you don't wear heavy clothing.

$600-650.00 No Box, no papers is about the going price from your LGS.

I'd say buy & shoot it ! With the popularity of 'snubbies' these days, you can most likely get most of your money back should you decide you don't like it.

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'I know nothing'.. Sgt. Shultz

Re: My earlier post about the snub handling as well as the longer barrel that's just me. I find the K snubs, I carried one on duty for years, gives me a faster flash sight picture for combat shooting/qualifications. For distances further than 15 yards maybe not so much, but single action from 25 yds. slow fire I did just fine. The K snub is something I lack in my collection, and I'll remedy that as finances allow.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I bought mine in 1976 and it was my primary off-duty gun until about 1999 when I went to the dark side (Glock). But, I still carried the 19-3 alternately and now that I am retired I carry it more often when clothing permits concealment of a gun larger than a 642. SP's points are logical, but surprisingly or not, I often shot a better score in pistol matches when I used the snub 19 for the "undercover" phase, beating my 4" gun score. Granted, in those courses of fire I used target ammo, but I still outscored the 4"er. I think nearly 38 years of handling the thing has made it as familiar as I will ever be with a firearm. It has one of the best actions in my modest collection of Smiths.

It is a handful with magnum ammo. Proper grips are paramount. For me, a Tyler T-grip with the standard panels works best, and I have experimented with everything. Holster selection has been mentioned and I have had good results with an old Safariland pancake style. It rides high and conceals well. I can't believe the thing is not worn out - I've had it almost as long as the gun. I never had an issue with the adjustable rear sight, but I suppose with the wrong holster it may be a problem?

In the old book "Survival Guns" by the late Mel Tappan, he regarded the snub 19/66 as heavy duty 38's. Mine is such as I usually carry a 38+p load nowadays.

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Tony

I agree with Saxon Pig, the 3" heavy barrel K frames with fixed sights carry better than the 2.5", adjustable sight versions, at least for me.

For all intents my M- 66 2 1/2" is the ideal C/C and home defense revolver. The shorter barrel and round butt make it fairly easy to hide under anything but a light T-shirt. The main thing I like about the 2 1/2" K frames is they feel like I've got a real gun in my hand, unlike the smaller J frames.

The only draw back is 2 1/2" K frames are NO fun to shoot with .357 Magnum ammo. I tried it again today and gave up after 12 rounds. I will admit it was fun to see the looks on the faces of the . 22 and 9 M/M shooters when I touched of a strong .357 Magnum round at an indoor range.

One of my favorites. I carried its somewhat similar and simpler ******* twin (3" model 65) for many years. Got a chance to play with my aunts M19 2.5" that she's had since working with the FBI back in the 70's/80's, and all I can say is that now one of these is on my list.

Hers has a Tyler T-Grip on it, and was super comfortable. I've tried all sorts of grips on mine and had settled on a set of modified hogue rubber grips, but after trying hers out I am seriously thinking of putting the stock grips back on and finding a t-grip.

Bought a 2 1/2" 19-3 yesterday for $350 from a friend out at the range and promptly shot a 1.3", 5-shot group at 25yds with some cast wadcutter reloads.

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Where we go one, we go all

I like my 66 a lot, and it carries well.

Gee, looks like I started something with this thread. Of course you know, you are just feeding this craving of mine for something I simply cannot afford at this time.

Don

ever seen a hearse pulling a U-Haul trailer

USSR
A 2 1/2" Model 19 is a good revolver to dream about. When your dream comes true and you own one, you will be a happy camper!
This one is among my favorite revolvers to shoot. I carry it sometimes, but because I have a small frame myself, I usually carry a small frame revolver - a 1964 vintage Chiefs Special to be precise.


As to how they handle/shoot, I'll just post another photo. This was taken at the range about 10 months ago. Off hand at 15 yards. Acceptable.


Keep your eyes open and you may locate one for a reasonable price. When you do, snatch it up!

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

You need a micrometer to measure a one and one-third inch group???
Wow!

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Please post your opinion on the holster. That is next on my list for my 29-2.

It's the only thing we had at the time at the range.
And if you shot with the cut throat bullseye shooters I shoot with you'd understand.

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Where we go one, we go all

I won't carry any of my good ol' Smiths as every day self defense guns. If the unfortunate did happen and I had to use it in self defense, it would be taken from me, probably for months, and likely wouldn't come back to me in the same condition as it left. That is what they make Glocks (or M & Ps if that is your bent) for. You can always go and get another one of those.

I have a 3" 686, which I carry in a Sparks VM2 (IWB) holster. It conceals just fine. At least nobody in Seattle asked if I was carrying (or just excited to see them). The slightly smaller 66 would do as well. As noted, it is essential to have a good belt and holster, even if you have to wait for one. Mine took 12 weeks to deliver, and that's fast for Sparks.

It is not as easy to shoot as a 4" by any means, but it's not a belly gun either. Watch Hickok45 hit the gong at 80 yards, and blast 8" plates at 20 yards as fast as he can pull the trigger. Recoil, with the right grips, is perfectly manageable, even with hot magnum loads. I have Ahrends boot grips on mine.

The hammer does not snag if you cover it with your thumb until clear. I got that habit from using snap holsters, and it still gets the job done. For pocket or purse carry, hammerless is the way to go. You could grind the spur off too, but leave enough of a stub to act as a stop in the frame.

Several posts have mentioned the T-Grip Adapter. Has anyone tried custom stocks such as Herrett makes? I have handled a T-Grip equipped revolver once but wasn't able to fire it. I have some J Frame revolvers and an N-Frame with Jordan Trooper Stocks which do very well, and the J Frame version conceal pretty well. One pair is on a Model 640-1 Centennial, replacing the black rubber grips with which the factory outfitted it. Those focused the recoil in one part of my hand and were very uncomfortable. Herrett Stocks have a longer curve, and spread out the recoil better.

One poster mentioned having tried a pair of grips which didn't work. Just wondering whether anyone else has tried something like: what results have been had with stocks on this rather light revolver, especially when shooting heavier loads?

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Fred

I would like to add my .02

I must first state that I have now where near the experience with the 2 1/2" 16/66's as some of the above posters. In fact I just got one of each. I shoot them for the first time yesterday. To me, it was a thing of beauty. I fired about 100rds .357 158gr SJSP and 50 .38 158gr LRN. Distance was about 25ft and the gun was surprisingly comfortable with the magnum loads. I could shoot .357's all day out of this gun and the .38's are pure pleasure. It's not small or lightweight by any means but fits perfectly in my hands. I have Ahrends tactical finger groove stocks on them and they are a great match. I normally shoot .357 out of my 686 5" and I felt just as accurate with these k frames.

I plan on carrying this gun as soon as my holster arrives. As stated above, a key part of carrying gun is a quality belt and holster combo. I don't foresee any problems comfortably concealing a 2 1/2" 19 with a OWB holster and a flannel shirt.

I would highly recommend the 2 1/2" K frames to anyone. For me, they just may be the perfect match. I just wish I could have got them sooner...

[IMG][/IMG]

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SWCA #2777

Back in the day, a few swipes with a file on each corner of the rear sight would fix the snagging issue, and if we needed a spurless hammer, we just made one, as there were plenty of spare parts available. Keep the chambers clean and no problems would be experienced with ejection until well after any reasonable ammo load was expended. Yes, that was then and this is now, but they worked well IMO as a plainclothes or CCW revolver. The HB M13 / M65 was, and is, probably a 'better' CCW revolver, but there are no flies on the M19 / M66 snubs either. I love mine!

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Run Fast, Bite Hard!