A recent thread mentions the M15 being used in Viet Nam. I had heard something about that and would like a bit more information.
The reason I ask is because on Friday I am once again going to display a series of rifles and handguns used by our military personnel in the various conflicts. This will be at my daughter's Christian high school. I posted about that last year when I did it. I brought guns from the 1870s through the 1950s.
This year I am going to add my M12 S&W revolver. I have read chopper pilots carried those in Viet Nam. I also know the M56 was developed specifically for the Air Force at about that time. It was produced in very small numbers and is quite rare. It became the 2" M15 with a few minor changes.
But what can you tell me about the use of the M15 in that war?
Or any other S&W revolvers for that matter.
Jim

This is the revolver that was issued to USAF pilots in Vietnam, in the late '60s.
I got a letter from S&W confirming it.
I carried one identical to it until I managed to snag a Colt 1911A1 from a US Army captain. My issue was not the revolver, capacity, or power of the .38S&W Special. Rather, it was that we were issued the revolver with 18 rounds. I got the Colt with 7 magazines.
In actuality, it was pointless for us to have one. The idea that we'd be able to do much with them against the NVA was ludicrous. Still, it was a comfort to have one while entertaining the enemy from above.
While visiting an Army poker buddy at An Loc I did get the "opportunity" to throw some bullets at the NVA before a M-16 was thrust into my hands. I'm sure they were terrified.
Some of the most "fun" I had was between there and Tay Ninh.
I remember talking with Army helicopter crewmembers at Song Be who said they actually used their S&Ws. As you might suppose, it was the last ditch, used only because the "real guns" were out of ammo or out of reach.
S&W 15-2 USAF.jpg

S&W 15-2 right.jpg

We had 15s. I carried my Model 19. But I was in Thailand, not SVN.

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I graduated from high school in 1967 -- while the Vietnam war was ramping up.

I went to college to study engineering and had a deferment, but many of my HS buddies ended up drafted or enlisted and went to Vietnam.

During that time there was much press about M16 rifles jamming.

Several of the parents whose kids were deployed to Vietnam were trying to figure out how to send them revolvers so they would have a reliable weapon.

Not sure how that worked out, but if they were successful there may have been various models of S&W's that ended up over there besides the specific ones issued by the military.

Dave

Hope this isn't too much of a thread hijack, but does anyone remember what model revolver was used for the Russian Roulette scene in the 70s Vietnam movie "Deer Hunter"? Would be interesting if it was a model 15, but I have no idea.

That's an easy one. Didn't even have to google it. Colt Detective Special.
f.t.

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South Carolina-God's country

Thanks FT!

Given that by that time the military and government were simply buying commercial revolvers as needed for special purposes, virtually any S&W could have been issued and used in Vietnam.

However, the Model 15 was standard issue for the Air Force, most Army helicopter units, and the US Navy.

I was able to carry my model 19. I saw a quite a few model 60's and model 10's

An Loc, Tay Ninh, Quan Loi, Lai Khe. Sounds like the old neighborhood to me.

I remember about a M-29 44 magnum that was invented for tunnel clearing. It fired a shot load and the wad/plug thing never left the casing and this was to reduce noise and flash while clearing the sneaky little VC out of their tunnels.

This may interest you:Smith & Wesson/AAI 44 Magnum Vietnam Tunnel Gun - Smith & Wesson Forum

During two tours there I saw a large assortment of S&W revolvers and an occassional Model 39. Along with Colts and Rugers scattered about.

US Army Huey pilots were issued Model 10 4 inchers. Air Force Security Police and pilots were issued the Model 15. I never saw a 56 there. They were issued strictly to the Fire Control Officers at ballistic missle sites.

I did see 19's 2 1/2 and 4 inchers in the hands of Army officers and some SF troops. They were allowed personal weapons. A few Pythons. A lot of 36's, 38's and 49's.

Browning Hi Powers were readily available on the black market in Saigon. Along with a cornicopia of other weapons for the right price.

Air Force regs prohibited the SP's from carrying personally owned weapons..that being said... my nickle Model 38 came in a tin of cookies from my folks...lol.

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Take your time..quickly.

air crew issue Model 15 38 special...Navy....Nam 64 to 66

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one day at a time

Are you sure about the Model 15 being used by Army and Navy personnel? I think the Army was more likely issuing Model 10s and the Navy was using Victory Models.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

USAF - Definite official issue of Model 15 CM during the Vietnam period and after.

Lots of Victory model .38 revolvers from WWII used by lots of troops, mainly aviation-related issue.

M1911A1 - Same as Victory. Everyone used them.

Untold numbers of almost any handgun you can name could be found among the troops, but were not military issue. If you couldn't bring your own or get your parents to send you one, there were lots available on the local market for sale or trade. Model 19s were popular.
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One I just remembered. A friend had a Browning Model 1900 in .32 ACP. Apparently there were many of these around as they had been in wide use by the French military during the colonial period. Actually a fine compact little pistol that didn't take up much space.

Model 10 4"
I was aircrew on CH47C Chinooks in RVN, 1969-1970. We were given the choice of well used 1911's or S&W M10's, I chose the M10-5 as they were in decent condition as compared to the "rattletrap" 1911's. Other than shooting up the country side a few times, I never needed it.

Donn - III Corps was my AO as well. I was at Phu Loi with the 213th ASHC BlackCats, 1st Aviation Brigade. I knew well Quan Loi, Tay Ninh, Lai Khe, Song Be, An Loc areas. Quan Loi (think red dirt) especially as that was one of the main base camps used for the Cambodia Incursion.

Here's a pic of a M10-5 the same as the one issued.


And a pic of the Black Virgin Mtn. (Nuibadin) just outside Tay Ninh.

Were military personnel allowed to purchase sidearms at the BX, PX or Rod and Gun Club in Vietnam like they were elsewhere?

Sounds like you and Harkrader and I worked the same AO. I was with the 187th AHC in Tay Ninh and had to look at that damned mountain (NBD) every time I walked to the flight line. Victory Model.

I never saw firearms for sale through the exchange system in RVN like they are in The World.

USAF, 24 months in the South; 1970, 1971.
The Model 15 (dash 2 and dash 3) were commonly issued to at least the following personnel:
Air crews (not just pilots)
Security Police (previously called Air Police)
Ammo troops, when on convoy or other situations when they might come under enemy fire.
EOD

I believe the one I carried the most was a Model 15-2. I got my Expert Marksmanship qualification with it. Before my enlistment, I had poured several thousand rounds through one just like it. When I took my target to the range master, he couldn't count the hits. There was nothing left of the middle of the target. And this was with an issued revolver. They held up well, even if the ammo supplied was not what I would have chosen.

I never had a personal weapon in VN, but I knew other air crew members who did. I knew one ammo sergeant who had his own 1911A1 with him.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

For those of you who are SWCA members, there is an excellent write-up on this gun in the most recent issue of the Journal, written by Chuck Odom. It includes some great photos, including a couple of the special, unique ammunition.
According to the article, the modified M-29 was never actually issued for the Tunnel Rat program because by the time development was complete those activities had come to an end or were being wrapped up. It says about 10 copies of the early version were sent Down South in 1969 for field testing and the problems were identified, which were then conveyed to Aircraft Armaments, Inc., the contractor doing the development on the QSPR (as it was later called).
I know from my own experience that by 1971, in the ground struggle in the Delta region southwest of Saigon, where a lot of the tunnel warfare had been conducted, the Army's role was being reduced, as it was in the rest of the country. Vietnamization was in full swing and the war was increasingly becoming an Air Force (and Navy) show. So I'm not surprised to learn that the Tunnel Rat program was pretty much discontinued by 1972.
I did meet one or two of those guys when I was over there. Gutsy SOBs! The one I remember who had a sidearm with him, showed me a Model 10. He said he hated to shoot it underground. It hurt his ears and eyes, even though it was equipped with a suppressor of some sort.

For those of you who are not yet members of the SWCA - this is another reason to join up! Great articles in the Journal.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I just looked at this link. This was written by the same fellow who penned the article I mentioned in my previous post. At the link you can see most of the photos published with the Journal article, and some that were not.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

This one but only for about 90 days in 1969. 29-2 converted to a Quiet Special Purpose Revolver for use in tunnel warfare.
Chuck

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SWCA1517 SWHF256
Rangers LTW!

Gentlemen, thank you for your service. America is truly grateful for your sacrifice.

Wow, that is an amazing gun and photo of the gun. With our Bn. HQ being Cu Chi, and our AO being what it was, there was a lot of tunnel activity. We (my crew and I) got the DFC for a smoke ship Op North of Cu Chi involving a unit that stumbled into the middle of a tunnel complex in a heavily deforested area. it was a mess. It was 1969. The Butcher said it was to be.

This is not revolver related but I found this a while back on a Yahoo list and saved it, Thought some of you might find it interesting.

-----J

"When I assembled loads for interchangeable use on pythons and VC by SF tunnel rats attached to MACV they requested 28 pellets of copper plated No. 2 shot capped with a single pellet of copper plated 00 buckshot formed into the end of the casing closure. No. 2 shot penetrated 3/4 inch marine plywood at 20 ft. and the 00 buckshot would penetrate two layers of 3/4 inch plywood.

Shape and overall length of the loaded rounds were identical to M1911 Ball and the rounds would function full auto through a suppressed M3A1, as well as in the M1911 pistol."

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In Home Mix We Trust
From the Home of "Ed's Red"
73 de KE4SKY
Regards, Ed

Of all the interesting information in this thread, this one caught my attention the most. I'd be interested in the details of that load. It would be interesting to replicate.

As said above, thank you to all who served.

David

Knew an O-1 pilot that carries a Ruger .44 Mag in stainless.

He could have traded that for people.

AFS

In addition to my other topics on firearms used in Vietnam, this one is for whether or not Model 1917 Revolvers were used? - M1909 AND M1917 COLT AND S&W REVOLVERS [REF] - U.S. Militaria Forum



Corporal Charles Patchin of the 173rd AB working his way through a VC tunnel during Operation Cedar Falls. Patchin survived the war and later related that the S&W M1917 revolver was personally owned and not an issue weapon.

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Regards from Germany
Stephan

Thanks to everybody for the info.
I think this time I will bring my 4" M&P that was made just after WWII, my 2" M12 4 screw and my 4" Combat Masterpiece. After I'm done I'll post a full report on here.

I would also like to say a word of appreciation to all the members here who served in Viet Nam. You were treated horribly when you returned, and you certainly didn't deserve that. Thank you for your service.
Jim

Just had another thought. I also have a Winchester M12 Riot Gun. I know the Trench Guns were used in WWII and beyond, but did they issue the Riot Guns too?
Jim

I ran across 2 different fellas that had winchester model 1897 trench guns. Where they got them, I do not know. I would think they were issued because where else would they get them? Can't imagine a soldier bringing his dad's or grandads trench gun with him from home.

Model 10, brand new in the blue cardboard box. IIRC was a round butt, 4" tapered barrel.

My Dad was a major at the time, flew "occasionally" on the Combat Talon 1, and was assigned to the embassy in Saigon, but lived out in the "burbs". During TET the hotel across the street was hit by a rocket, so they moved downtown to the embassy for about 2 weeks. He went back to the hotel in the burbs, but for their little about town jaunts and the fun ride to Than-san-Nhut he had a 2" Colt Cobra, and an M2 carbine that was full auto. On one mission in the 130, they were hauling a couple of cases of FN Hi-Powers, beautifull pistols, but "clean", the young fellers told my Dad, take a couple of those Major, we use em, drop em and run like heck. He regretted not taking a couple and bought his own Browning, and set me to find him a Colt Cobra, which I did.

Yes - kinda.
Doorgunners (ya, me) were the only members of Flight Platoon that were required to pull guard duty. This was usually either on our own flight line or on the perimeter bunker line.
Bunker guards were required to bring their own M16's, one M79, and one of the three persons on each bunker also checked out an M60. Claymores, detonators, M60, & M79 ammo were kept in a footlocker in each bunker.
Flight line guards were issued a Mossberg 12ga. riot-gun (don't remember model). This was so the 00 buckshot wouldn't carry too far & blow-up another bird.

Bruce

BEMike:

That is a great photo. I noticed the brown shoulder holster carrying the Model 10. It does not appear to be USGI. Can you tell us anything about it (maker, model, source, etc.)? Thanks.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Well I can't get the picture to post, but google "General Loan" to see pic of S&W in action against NVA up close & personal.

A guy I work with was Army and he carried a M-15 in Vietnam. Said he got ammo from the Air Force guys on base. He said he used it frequently after his M16 jammed. He sold to another guy when he rotated out.

I got a back problem wearing the cowboy style belt and holster with belt loops for ammo in the back that I purchased on the local economy. One of the supply guys dug up this holster for me. I recon it was a George Lawrence design, but I'm not sure. I wish I had one like it, but haven't found anything just like it with the all leather straps. Oh yeah, I solved the extra ammo problem by keeping a box of 50 rounds in the front (chest) pocket of my "chicken plate".

When we were issued the new model 10's in our Army Aviation unit, one of our pilots, Ernie, asked to keep his 1911a1 because he had owned one and shot it before joining the Army and had confidence in it. He is the only pilot in our unit, that I know of, that actually used his handgun in a firefight. He was standing by at a "secure" area near the beach, while an instructor was giving training to another pilot. They were in an unarmed Huey. They were supposed to switch off later. Ernie, started receiving fire from a spider hole a couple of sand dunes over. Ernie took cover and returned fire with his pistol. Ernie had no radio, but eventually the pilots flying overhead saw the commotion and landed, picked up Ernie and flew back to camp.

Met a C-123 loadmaster who carried a Smith mod 39 and a Randle knife. They would often land to unload cargo at forward bases where cargo planes were known at mortar magnets. So they tried to land, unload, and take off just as fast as possible. They would request that some Army troopers come out and jump into the open rear cargo doors and help push out the cargo. When the Army saw the 39 and the Randle, they would get into a bidding war trying to buy his weapons. 'They are not for sale, push out the pallets.'

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It is interesting to note that the AP photographer, Eddie Adams, who took the photo regretted it to his dying day. He said that Gen. Loan killed the VC Captain Bay Lop, but he (Adams) killed Gen. Loan and Loan didn't deserve it. Adams said that even untouched or doctored photos only tell half-truths. The thousands of South Vietnamese civilians who were murdered by the communists during Tet, were ignored by the media and the American victory was spun by the media to infer a defeat. I'm not defending the summary execution of prisoners, just saying that war is a terrible thing. I'm also saying that the news media has awesome power, and it too can be abused. I apologize for the topic drift.

There's a nice Model 27 living in the Russian Army Military Museum in Moscow along with a very early M-16 ,not an A-1 and the Bone Dome of an A-6 Bombardier-navigator. I think the Smith belonged to the shot down aviator.

In one corner ,Powers U-2 sits complete with suppressed Colt Woodsman.

Sorry, but Powers' pistol was a High Standard.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

A fellow I met after the war was a SEAL and he told me he and other Seals were issued S&W M-39s with absolutely no markings of any kind on them. No brand, no serial number, nada.

One of our pilots, Eric, carried a Colt Python. His father had sent it to him along with plenty of hollow point ammo. Eric was shot down and wounded (through both legs). He was sent to Japan and then the states. I reconnected with him recently and he said that he never got that revolver back. BTW, Eric made a full recovery and still flies helicopters, but not the little ones like the loach he flew in Nam. He now flies sky cranes.

I carried a model 10 with a 6" barrel and round butt! 16th SOS AC-130 gunship Gunner ! Viet Nam 70,71,72,73

Coincidentally, I just saw this on a regional gun-trading site:

: WTS/ WTT S&W Model 15-2 USAF 1964 : Revolvers

I am in no way promoting the item, but it looks to be exactly what is being discussed in this topic.

In many places there was no PX/BX. The sundry pack took the place of the exchange.
"Rod & Gun club" was nonexistent as far as I know.
Most units had "official" policies prohibiting private weapons, which were generally ignored.
I don't know what went on in Saigon and similar sized facilities.

RE Other weapons issued:

Some of us were issued Ruger .22 autos as part of a "tunnel clearing kit". Standard Ruger .22 auto with the standard shorter barrel. Unfortunately I don't have a picture of ours. The kits came with a hand held field phone, (forget the nomenclature), some wire, the Ruger, and I don't remember what else, probably some ammunition.

rayb

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