I picked up a Mod 10-5 a few months ago as a project. It was rusted, and very well worn pretty much everywhere that was exposed to air. My curiousity is with the US marked back strap and rough hand stamp serial number on the butt. It's a round butt tapered barrel model.
My question is how old? Could it be one of the USAF contract guns?

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Another pic with US markimage.jpg

Serial number stamp

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A curosity for sure. Is the number on the butt the same number
stamped on the frame under the crane? My first impression is that it
looks like it might have been altered from SB to RB.

Clearly an altered serial no. That piece is probably a felony to possess.
Hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

Larry

I carried the exact gun in the Army as a helicopter pilot. I don't recall anything about the markings on any of the ones I was issued, so I'm of no help there.

We had both the S&W Model 10 or Ruger Service-Six in every arms room it seemed. You pretty much got to choose if you wanted a Ruger or S&W.

The Rugers were marked "Service-Six" but had round butt's like a Speed-Six. They also had lanyard loops, but the Model 10's did not. The S&W's were exactly like what you have in the pic.

I'd be reluctant to try to file a case on this. Whole number altered or filed off, sure. Proving beond a shadow of doubt that this wasnt some craftsman placing his mark on a weapon he was working on and was off center would be problematic.

From the desk of Cpl. Coffman (Retired)

If there is an unaltered serial number in the crane you are good.

Not really, since the Model 10-5 has no serial number in the yoke/crane area.

Whatever that number on the butt is, it's NOT the original serial, which had a C or D prefix. Someone could have copied an assembly number from the crane (I have one with a five-digit one) assuming that was the serial.

Either way, it's weird. And I don't think by that time the additional serial number stampings on barrel, cylinder, etc. were still practiced, so probably no way to check.

I'd be reluctant to assume that the BATFE would agree with that logic...

Just between you and me, put that gun in the shop in the bottom of a bucket for now. Do not bring it out and show it until the mystery gets resolved. These spurious Sns can open up a hornets nest. I knew one gunsmith that cut the bottom of the frame off and used it as a fitting jig.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

True . . . the serial numbers on the barrel and cylinder were discontinued circa 1957 . . . but the s/n on the underside of the extractor was retained much longer.

Since it's not "on the frame" as required by ATF regs, any s/n on the extractor won't serve as the official number but it will likely tell you what the original number was/is.

Russ

Allways let the feds take my "extra" cases. My case load was too high.

From the desk of Cpl. Coffman (Retired)

What does "picked up" mean?

It's an interesting question. if you stop by my house and I hand you one of my old beater guns that I use as decoration that's one kind of pick up but if you stop by the LGS or a pawn shop and buy it, even CHEAP CHEAP, that's another kind of pick up, or at a gun show - FFL or private sale?

If you bought that gun from a federally licensed firearms dealer and there is a paper record of the same/4473 with SN I would argue that you did what the law requires, and if the gun has an altered serial number it's neither your fault nor your problem. That's an "iffy" argument but I think it would prevail with the gendarmerie and most prosecutors. But if you acquired that gun from a non-dealer, yeah, if the SN is altered it's definitely on you.

Thanks for the replies. I purchased this at a local, very reputable shop. 4473, NICS check and all. It was call traced through local PD when the shop brought it in to verify it at least currently isn't on any "hot" list.
There are no assembly numbers on any other part, and the butt looks to be original, not cut down. As well comparing it measurement wise to my other round butt, doesn't look like it was "altered", as in had the original SerNo milled off, or filed for that matter, all the profiles are the same. No other marks besides the model number under the crane(which matches factory mark), and the US on back strap.
Cash wise I've very little into it. I bought it as a parts donor/project piece to practice gunsmithing and refinishing on. Shame to have to cut it up, it's a wonderfully smooth and very accurate shooter.

Edit... I found that number stamped inside the side plate, don't know why I hadn't looked there before. So it looks like someone copied the assembly number?

Is there a number on the back side of the extractor?

Russ

No numbers on either the cylinder or crane. I'm guessing replacements sometime in the past...

Of course they would have run the gun with the assembly number as the serial, so any result is meaningless if the gun was reported stolen with its original serial number. But if that original number is nowhere to be found anymore (did you check the back of the extractor star?), that connection is severed forever anyways.

I wondered about that, too. Someone went through a lot of trouble removing a serial number and getting the butt flat to look that untouched and pristine, if that's what happened.

Yes, neatly "scrubbed." And all that work thrown away with a crooked hand stamped number, preceded by something that had just as well be the Sanskrit inventory mark.

Definitly went through a lot of trouble to clean it up, polish it, and make it look pretty, only to re-stamp it so roughly. My theory is it was reworked at some point by a pro, or a pretty good amateur, the re-numbered. But who knows?

That SN in no way resembles a factory stamped SN from the era in which that pistol was manufactured. Whether or not it's the correct SN is not for me to say . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

That gun started as an Army contract Model 10 and there aren't many around. But that number on the butt would be a showstopper for me. As a practical matter it might never be an issue but I would not want to risk a felony conviction on a $250 revolver. There is not much ambiguity about the BATF's position.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Prophammer:

Just to clarify something, you said in your original post it was rusty and worn everywhere, which is not the gun in your photos, so did you already refinish it?

Also, in reference to your question about the U.S. stamp on the backstrap, the Air Force apparently did receive some Model 10's so marked. See the link to the older thread I've pasted below:

Model 10 US marked

But what about the back side of the extractor?

Here is a Model 10-5 s/n D571184 that shipped in February 1973. Note there is no s/n on the barrel flat or rear face of cylinder but . . . lo and behold . . . there it is on the rear face of the extractor star (I apologize the s/n stamping on this example is not as legible as most)

IF I were wanting to know more about this revolver's history I would look there and start my research with the real serial number.

Russ

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Yes I had already re-finished, not to mension several hours of fitting and getting things properly timed. A lot of work to end up having it destroyed. The way things are shaping up I'll likely strip it to the frame and either destroy and forget or turn it in. Like I said I paid almost nothing for it, no real loss financially.

Thanks for the pics, there is no number on the rear face of the extractor either. It's clean.

1. It's amazing to me how many S&Ws with altered or removed serials turn up being discussed on thise forum. Makes me wonder how many such guns are out there?

2. A military gun is far more likely to have the serial removed in my experience. Often when a GI brings a handgun home he or his kid fears being caught with stolen government property and they wipe the serial. When a civilian handgun is altered it just about ALWAYS means it was stolen at some point.

3. Yes, illegal under federal law. But if you acquired the gun without criminal intent all that will happen is that it will be confiscated. Happened to a friend a few years ago.

4. If it were me with this gun, I would keep it and shoot it. I think the worst that could happen is that if law enforcement became aware of it somehow it would be confiscated.

__________________
No life story has happy end.

Weren't these the standard issue for female Army MP's for some years? I seem to remember seeing a few at Fort Meade back in the late 70's.

The entire gun was stolen not just the part with the serial number.
Car thieves would love it if they could just remove the serial number on the dash and then it was legal to sell off all the parts.

Zipdog- Be realistic. This is likely not stolen and if it is there is no way to return to owner. Salvaging parts is the only way to retrieve any of the money spent on it.

Like I said, I would keep it to myself.

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No life story has happy end.

If the original serial number was ground off and the frame refinished, a police crime lab would be able to raise the original number through one of several processes. Think a state police crime lab, not a suburban P.D., which usually struggles with anything more complex than finding a fingerprint.

There is no way to establish the origin of this gun without the original number.

The current owner bought it in a licensed gun shop after an NCIC check on the number currently there, and my guess is unless he shoots somebody with it, and the investigating officer is a S&W fan who recognized the current number isn't factory, this just isn't going to happen.

I think this is a non-issue in the real world.

I concur a sales recept with that s/n would close the books,
Shows that owner made a legit purchase from a licensed dealer. Owner showed due dillagence by using reputable business. THEIR job to vet merchandise prior to offering to public.

From the desk of Cpl. Coffman (Retired)

1) What part of "receiving stolen property" don't you all understand?
If you know that the serial number was altered and keep it and you get caught, your in deep. Go back to the LGS and demand your money back.
One call to Roy Jinks by law enforcement would confirm that number is not legit.
2) Look at the letter from the BATFE posted by Mr. Williams.
I'm surprised at some of the LEO responses to the OP. You get caught in possession of a gun with an altered sn, suddenly it's on you to prove you didn't know it was stolen.

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Don Mundell

Non issue. Purchased legally at an FFL, went thru NICS check.

I vote with SP and some of the others on this issue. I would just keep
it and shoot it. You bought it legally at an FFL and did absolutely
nothing wrong.

Officer Club Gun Fan- What part of "criminal intent" do YOU not understand? Is every pawnbroker arrested who buys stolen property that walks into the shop?

Also, there is no proof the gun is stolen. Like I said, a military gun with a wiped serial usually isn't stolen, it's paranoia over having government property. A RSP charge wouldn't last 2 seconds on a prosecutor's desk.

As for having a gun with an altered serial, the gun is contraband and would be confiscated and TECHNICALLY it is a crime to possess. But once again we come back to that criminal intent bugaboo. The gun was not acquired with any knowledge that there was a problem with it. Nobody would pursue charges against the current owner. The gun would be bagged and that would be the end of it.

We're spending far more time on this than the issue warrants.

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No life story has happy end.

Using the wrong serial number.

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Get off my lawn!

Where does it say "criminal intent" in the ATF letter? What it does say is it is "unlawful to possess...." Reading is fundamental.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Just a reminder that extramarital sex is illegal in Virginia.

None of the good folks who keep repeating that the gun is illegal are wrong. But the question here is how that translates into real life. The ATF letter is meaningless for that, since it's just a boilerplate recitation of the law; of course they're not going to explain publicly how and what they're actually interested in prosecuting or even just pursuing.

This case isn't about legal absolutism, but comes down to what the current owner is comfortable with. In no conceivable scenario does he risk more than having to give up the gun. Anything further would require a prosecutor to prove that he knew the serial number was not legit, an impossibility in the face of documentation that a professional gun shop had properly cleared it.

Just don't keep a print-out of this thread with the gun .

My guess is if you were caught with it there is a good chance of being arrested. It would then be up to you to prove you bought it legally. I think I would made copies of all paperwork so not to lose any of it.

You could probably get out of it but who needs that headache. You might even have to hire a attorney.

"My guess is if you were caught with it there is a good chance of being arrested."

My guess is that you are guessing incorrectly.

No federal prosecutor would waste more than 5 seconds even thinking about charging the owner if all they had was a gun with no serial. Hell, they don't bother charging felons who try to buy guns. No resources to spend on such nickel and dime cases.

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No life story has happy end.

When was the last time any of you were "checked" for serial number authenticity of your firearms?

I deal with the BATFE way more than Joe Average and I've never been asked a thing about my personal firearms. In fact, I've never seen them take any interest in a personally owned gun unless the owner was a known prohibited person they were after for other crimes too.

Everyone always talks about "if you get caught with that" like there is a serial number police out on patrol at all the shooting ranges and gravel pits. Realistically the danger of being caught in this type case is so slim as to be nil and if you were for some reason, it isn't likely to be a one way trip to the chair for you.

Don't bet on it. State law covers it also. It might depend on how the state words it in their law.

Here is Florida's version.

790.27 Alteration or removal of firearm serial number or possession, sale, or delivery of firearm with serial number altered or removed prohibited; penalties.—

(1)(a) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly alter or remove the manufacturer’s or importer’s serial number from a firearm with intent to disguise the true identity thereof.

(b) Any person violating paragraph (a) is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.


(2)(a) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly sell, deliver, or possess any firearm on which the manufacturer’s or importer’s serial number has been unlawfully altered or removed.

(b) Any person violating paragraph (a) is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(3) This section shall not apply to antique firearms.

History.—s. 2, ch. 79-58; s. 179, ch. 91-224.

What do we really have here?

We have a gun with a serial number which was legally purchased from a properly licensed gun shop which jumped through all the hoops to process the sale and transfer the gun to the current owner.

And we have a bunch of self-appointed internet "experts" (okay, me included), who think they know that that is not the original serial number.

Is there even a theoretical possibility to "get caught" with the gun? No, because there is no evidence that this is an illegal gun, just supposition. All available hard evidence (the dealer's documentation) says it is not. There is not even a shred of actual evidence that would justify a police officer confiscating the gun, let alone charging anyone. Anyone ever heard of probable cause? This gun does not present sufficient probable cause to any police officer by itself. To establish that it had a different serial which was removed, you'd need a crime lab.

Contrary to what some here seem to believe, the owner doesn't have to prove anything. This gun isn't contraband unless someone takes the time to try to prove it is contraband, before it can be confiscated. So forget about the crime lab.

This is not just a case nobody would pursue, this isn't a case. If you want law enforcement to take a serious interest in the serial number, use the gun to murder someone.

No, it is paranoia over having STOLEN government property.
"Grandpa "brought home" his Army Gun. I wonder why it hasn't got any markings."

I doubt anybody ever bought a gun from the DCM and filed the serial number off.

Amazing how many people don't know right from wrong. It's justified because of bla, bla, bla. Sounds just like the restroom lawyers at work.

First if your in possession of a gun with an altered serial number you are in violation and can or will be charged with that (see (2)(a) above.

Second the gun will be impounded as it has a altered serial number. When they acid test the gun and bring up the original serial number, and it happens to be stolen, now your in possession of stolen property which is another charge.

You can make up all the BS excuses that it's ok but it's not. There are thousands upon thousands of stolen guns out there.

Now I wouldn't say in this case the OP would be charged as he has documents showing he bought the gun from a dealer, and that would probably get him off the hook.

The dealer might get charged with dealing in stolen property if it was a stolen gun, but that remains up in the air depending on what he did.

If I was the OP I would either turn it in, or go back to the dealer and ask for a refund, and let him deal with it. That could also be criminal as you are now dealing in stolen property, if that happened to be the case. Getting caught with an altered gun in not something you want to do.

Those of you who think it's OK because you won't ever get checked probably didn't think this though too well.

I agree with you, but, I'll bet someone will come along and prove both of us wrong. I'd like to be sitting in the waiting room at BATFE and listen to the conversation between "I swear it's not stolen, my dealer sold it to me with all the proper paperwork" and a knowledgeable agent. Of course possession of a stolen, or altered firearm is no big deal. It happens everyday. What happen when BATFE calls Smith & Wesson with a serial number check and they are told it's not a legitimate serial number? Suddenly, your guilty until you can prove your innocent.

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Don Mundell

I agree that the present 'serial number' is going to be just fine unless someone uses this handgun while committing a felony and then is caught. As a related to being serial numbered (licensed), .......I was a licensed and fully qualified pilot for 35 years. I flew my airplanes in Alaska as well as planes belonging to others. I flew my airplanes in the lower 48 as well as planes belonging to others. I flew other peoples airplanes through Canada on the way between Alaska and the lower 48. I flew my airplanes in Mexico. My point is that in all that time of flying in and out of controlled airports, not once did anyone ever approach me and ask to see my FAA license. IMHO, obeying the strict black and white of the law while virtuous and desirable is highly overrated. .......... :-)

By now it should have become very obvious to you that the
only unforgivable crime that you personally have committed
was posting it on here and asking for comments.