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02-26-2009, 08:03 PM
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howdy , did Portland PD issue Smith & Wesson revolvers if so which ones ??
many thanks robbt
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02-26-2009, 08:03 PM
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howdy , did Portland PD issue Smith & Wesson revolvers if so which ones ??
many thanks robbt
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02-27-2009, 07:09 AM
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Portland Oregon or Portland Maine?
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02-27-2009, 08:36 AM
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hi Marc , Portland , Ore , I remember reading in the 1930's the pistol team used Colts at Camp Perry ,thtas al I know , please post , robbt
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02-27-2009, 10:31 AM
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I joined PPB (it's called a "Bureau" there, not a "department", hence the B instead of a D) in 1975. Until I left in 1993 officers purchased their own handguns and handcuffs, but the Bureau specified the makes and models. It had to be a .38 Special Colt or S&W with a 4" or 6" barrel. In the late 70's the rules were changed to allow .357's (but they could only be loaded with bureau-issued .38+P's) and Rugers. In 1985 S&W 645's and SIG P220's were authorized (as was the Astra A80, because the chief owned one! Buy me a beer and I'll tell you the whole story).
So towards the end of the revolver era you could find Colt OP's (which I was told were issued in the 30's), a few Police Positive Specials (which the first female chief, Penny Harrington, had) and a whole slew of K and N frames. My last patrol partner carried a 6" Python. There were a few Security Sixes. Plainclothes/detectives could and did carry mostly J-frame smiths with a few Detective Specials and Agents, though the prestige pistol was the 2 1/2" Model 66 and was carried by those savvy enough to appreciate them and tenacious enough to track one down, as they were quite difficult to come by there for a while.
In the late 70's I became an instructor, and then an armorer. At that time we purchased fair numbers of 4" M19's for resale to new officers for duty guns on an on-going basis. This was during the Bangor Punta era, followed by Lear Sigler. Though our standards were not particularly high, we rejected 20% of the guns as unfit for service out of the box. They would either push off, have below minimum trigger pull weight, DCU (what laypersons would call timing) and other issues, such as the occasional K-frame trigger stop rotating down and blocking trigger movement. We did not know that things would change and so perhaps failed to appreciate such things as forged lockwork, pinned barrels, recessed chambers, and the absence of an internal lock.
My last duty revolver was a 4" 686 which had the sweetest DA trigger pull out of the box of any post war gun I've ever handled. I have since given it to my son. When I left the Bureau I was carrying a 645 which never failed me; it would even feed empty cases (and I think the city council would prefer that we carried only empty cases...). It had a gorgeous set of Spegal grips on it. OK, I also carried an Ingram M10 in a shoulder holster, which was of course completely unauthorized, but I was working the gang unit at the time and it seemed prudent.
Dang, you guys have taken me back twenty years!
Craig Ward (Venom6 actual)
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02-27-2009, 03:11 PM
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Howdy Venom6, I was hoping to find a Portand Pd or Bureau Officer , where could you buy Police equipment ??
was there a Police Equipment store called Frisbie's ???
please advise, many thanks robbt
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02-27-2009, 08:58 PM
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Hello robbt: during my time there (1975-1991 active service) officers purchased their equipment and supplies from several different vendors. One was Nudelman's, a menswear store downtown; they had uniforms and some supplies like badges, holsters, flashlights, gloves, and some other items in the basement. There was another cool police supply outfit in Oregon City, whose name escapes me from this distant place. That's where I ordered the above-mentioned magnificent 686 4". As for Frisbees, yes, that was a small one-man leather shop on N. Greely Ave. When I hired on they supplied all our leather gear (which was minimal - gunbelt, holster, cuff case). Usually when I went in there I dealt with a younger native North American gal, who did in fact know the business. Don't know if it was Frisbee's daughter or someone else. Within a few years we went to the Safety Speed holster, which was a well-designed break-front, but not as good as some others (it was impossible to get a final firing grip on the revolver in the Safety Speed; you had to bump the gun forward, then shift your grip into final position as it rocked out of the holster). The first auto holsters were a superb Ernie Hanson design.
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02-27-2009, 10:20 PM
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Mr. Venom6:
I've only visited Portland and that was still a very interesting and informative history of the PPB weapons.
Thanks for sharing your hands on knowledge, perhaps others could do the same regarding other LEAs.
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02-27-2009, 10:38 PM
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Venom6 - you're bringing back all kinds of memories for me. I was a reserve with multnomah and then clackamas county SO's from from 1978 through 2002.
Multnomah County SO allowed you to purchase your privately owned duty weapons from them. My first duty weapon was a 4" Smith model 66 which was the only uniform duty weapon authorized for new employees in 1978. They charged me $175.00 at the time. I also carried a model 49 as backup.
The police distributor in Oregon City was SNC Distributors, they carried a lot of good stuff and the owner, Don Coon would give you way over resale value for any trade-ins, guns or leather or what have you.
After they went out of business one of his main salespeople named Gordon Wallace opened up 911 distributors and continued to do business until approximately 2000 when he also went out of business after losing the law enforcement Glock account for Oregon to Keiths sporting goods.
My wife worked for PPB for a time in the mid 80's and still has the 4" model 19 she purchased from the city for her duty weapon when she came to work.
If I recall correctly almost all the agencies in the tri-county area issued Ernie Hansen break front holsters as their duty holster. Took some getting used to to learn the draw technique but the holsters were state of the art for retention at that time.
Marc
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02-28-2009, 04:28 AM
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Venom: I think the outfit in Oregon City was Northwest Police Supply. I went down to Portland from Idaho State Police in 1972 but I showed up just about the same time as Bruce Baker was appointed Chief and Goldshmidt was Mayor. I knew I didn't/wouldn't/couldn't fit in. I moved up the river and worked at Wasco County for 7 years till I came back to Idaho and got my degree so I could go to the Feds.
Geez I spent a ton of money at Northwest Police Supply!!!!!!
Marc: I just checked my S&W file folder and we/the county used Northwest.
I carried a Bianchi 5BHL Highride till OSP went to the Nelson Break fronts after one of the guys in Hood River got his duty weapon snatched out of those low ride swivel holsters they wore back then. After that the Sheriff order us to carry them to. The nice part was they were good about building one for the 5" Model 27 I carried back then. It's still out in the gun room in my leather box.
Oh, back to the original question, I carried a 4" S&W Model 15 with 38s in it. The only NON Magnum I carried in 20 something years.
Ross W Thomas
Great Basin Ranch
Owyhee County, ID
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02-28-2009, 06:58 AM
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Just to let all you "Old Flat Foots" know that I really enjoyed your stories and appreciate your sharing. Thanks to all.
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02-28-2009, 12:53 PM
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Figures that Keith's was involved in putting another good small gun dealer out of business! He's been pretty up front about wanting to be THE only gun dealer in Portland.
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02-28-2009, 06:43 PM
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howdy boys , here a picture of a Frisbee Clamshell , it started my curiosity about Portland , many thanks for all your posts robbt
ps , what was the duty load ???
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02-28-2009, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vallh:
Figures that Keith's was involved in putting another good small gun dealer out of business! He's been pretty up front about wanting to be THE only gun dealer in Portland.
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Its business and its competition. What do you expect?
Keith's an honest guy with a good reputation. If others want to stay in business they need to compete with him. Its hardly a dishonorable thing on Keith's part.
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02-28-2009, 09:53 PM
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Well, this is great fun. Yes, I do remember SNC, and did way too much business with Don. But the one I was trying to remember was up on the high flats above Oregon City, and may have been as Wichahoney recollects. "Old Flat Foots"!? Sheesh, I've only been in the business now for 36 years, and still serve on two SWAT teams (though I will admit it gets a little tougher each year to keep up with the young bucks getting up and over the fences). Just a slow learner, I guess. Marc1911: if your wife served with the Bureau during the 80's I almost certainly knew her. Tell her hi for me. Robbt: many thanks for the photo of the Frisbee holster. I never carried one, but many of the old timers did (OK, so I'm a hypocrite!). On occasion, during a foot chase, the holster would get to gyrating in complete circles, and occasionally the pistol would come clattering out of the holster and go skidding down the pavement. The duty load when I got there was a 158 gr. jacketed softpoint. We went through the usual ACLU histrionics but finally adopted the JHP. It was 110 grains, and failed to penetrate adequately on numerous occasions. John Bocciolatte shot a gal in the hand, and the bullet penetrated said hand and badly bruised her abdomen. I'm not kidding. Steve Mosier shot a guy in the face at point blank range, and the bullet broke a tooth and knocked the guy unconscious, but merely lodged in his throat. I forget now if he spit it out or the doctor removed it with forceps. The list goes on and on. As lead range officer the best I could do was to increase the weight to 125 grains and talk them into going to +P. As the J-frames of the day were not rated for +P we issued 158gr. lead SWC HP's (at that time often referred to as the "Chicago Load," though I have heard it called other things including "The FBI Load" since, and the Chicago appellation applied to other loads. IIRC, when we went to .45's (optionally)in 1985-1986 the load was the 185 JHP. Shotguns were not routinely carried until the late 70's (Portland was and is an extremely liberal city), and then only due to the tireless efforts of Off. Paul Maxey. The load was 9-pellet 00 buck for the first few years, then the 12-pellet "short mag.;" the guns were initially Ithaca 37's with eighteen inch cylinder bore barrels, parkerized, with the Ray-Bar rifle sights and four-round magazine tubes, and later Smith and Wesson Model 3000's (basically a Rem. 870 clone with a slight re-engineering to minimize the occasional tendency of the 870's to double feed onto the carrier) with synthetic stocks and also a four-round capacity. I did fight with them several times but never had to reload (that 12-pellet buck was devastating, and kicked like H-E double hockey stick). Better quit now before I get too maudlin.
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03-01-2009, 08:58 AM
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Hi Venom6, many thanks for the information , its really great . I reside on the east coast and to find info on the west coast holster makers is great , many thanks , below are two additional Fribee holsters one with a trigger lock [ I thought that was only a east coast boo-boo] many thanks again , robbt
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03-01-2009, 11:41 AM
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I'm glad you like Keith, and hope you enjoy the gun show law he helped get passed in around 1999! Keith told me personally that he wanted that law to eliminate all the private dealers at gun shows. Keith was not openly in support of that law, but behind the scenes he did whatever he could to get it passed, as he felt it too would make things better for him.
Is it good business to eliminate the competition? Sure! Good for the guy who wants all the business, but bad for the consumer, and bad for the gun owners.
Quote:
Originally posted by robbt:
howdy boys , here a picture of a Frisbee Clamshell , it started my curiosity about Portland , many thanks for all your posts robbt
ps , what was the duty load ???
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03-01-2009, 12:10 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by vallh:
I'm glad you like Keith, and hope you enjoy the gun show law he helped get passed in around 1999! Keith told me personally that he wanted that law to eliminate all the private dealers at gun shows. Keith was not openly in support of that law, but behind the scenes he did whatever he could to get it passed, as he felt it too would make things better for him.
Is it good business to eliminate the competition? Sure! Good for the guy who wants all the business, but bad for the consumer, and bad for the gun owners.
[QUOTE]
So buy from his competition and don't buy from Keith. Organize a 'boycott Keith's' for all I care.
I don't know him personally at all, know nothing about his politics or business aspirations. In my dealings with him he has treated me fairly and his prices have been reasonable.
Its business and its competitive. His competitors need to accept it and compete. Too many people cover up high prices by making up excuses about their competition being unfair.
Its never good when someone is able to monopolize a market, I don't advocate that but free trade determines that.
I might also suggest that in 45 years of gun buying it is my observation that most gun buyers would slit their mother's throat over $10 on a gun deal, much less worrry about supporting a particular dealer. I'm constantly astonished by the guys who moan over losing $50 on a gun deal but buy a new car, lose literally thousands when they drive it away and never give it a second thought.
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03-01-2009, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by robbt:
... two additional Fribee holsters one with a trigger lock [ I thought that was only a east coast boo-boo] many thanks again , robbt
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The Audley style holster and the clamshell remind me that I just recently saw a 1970 holster article that cited the clamshell as an Audley patent. New to me, if true.
I've previously seen these references for clam shell makers: Safety Speed, Speed Safety (two different companies), Jewett, JAT Industries[Jicarilla Apache Tribal Industries], and Hoffman and Sons.
Also tell me more about Ernie Hansen. Google led me to the Wilson pistol endorsement page, but not much else.
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03-01-2009, 05:29 PM
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robbt: thank you for the excellent photos. Of the guys who carried Frisbees, I think all or most all of them were of the flap style.
SG-688: fascinating. I had no idea about JAT. As for Ernie Hansen, he was a Lincoln City police officer and detective (who later made chief), and well known and well respected in both the law enforcement and practical shooting communities in the Pacific Northwest. He started making holsters for himself and fellow officers in his garage, and wound up designing a superb duty holster in which the security strap was automatically released when a firing grip was obtained on the butt, due to a rearward jutting paddle extension of the strap (like a thumb-break, only different...). It was secure and fast and very well made; it was my favorite duty holster during my time with PPB.
From 1986 (when we began the transition to autos) until I left active service in 1991 if you wanted to carry an auto you had to buy all the gear yourself, including the holster and mag pouches, which the Bureau specified but did not issue. If you preferred the revolver, you still had to buy it yourself, but they would issue the Safety Speed break-front and a double-dump pouch. I carried the dump pouch behind the holster, and a personally-purchased/department-approved double speed loader pouch in front, right of center (I learned early in my career that gunfights were statistical anomalies, and even though I was told the "average" gunfight was 2.8 rounds, I've never been in any gunfight where I felt anything about it was average. And I damn sure didn't want to run out of bullets. Neither have I ever been in a fight where I wanted a smaller gun or fewer cartridges. But I digress; sorry).
By the time of the transition I was assigned to Intelligence, and then the Gang Unit, so was no longer an instructor and had little or no influence on the equipment, but I whole-heartedly approved of the selection of the Hansen holster, which was top-flight in all respects in my opinion. Having said that, there were a few salty and magnificent old beat cops who doggedly retained their blue-worn pre-M10 M&P's in their beloved Frisbee holsters right up until they retired (forceably or not). Best regards to all.
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03-01-2009, 06:29 PM
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Oh, somebody has to post some Hansen pictures. Thanks..
As for JAT Industries -- this is my only source, an advertisment in Law & Order in 1971:
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03-01-2009, 06:30 PM
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Venom6,
I think our paths may have crossed before.
Would you have taken an early spring white water rafting trip down the White Salmon River with another detective as guide and had the bottom ripped out of your boat on the first waterfall you encountered? This would have been around 86 or 87.
If so, my wife and I were in the same boat. Kind of hard to forget when the entire rest of the trip was spent with not bottom in your boat while you're freezing your butt off.
Marc
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03-02-2009, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Venom6:
... a superb duty holster in which the security strap was automatically released when a firing grip was obtained on the butt, due to a rearward jutting paddle extension of the strap (like a thumb-break, only different...). .. .
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That's reminding me of a 1970's S&W holster that had a thumb-break "paddle" that was pushed backward rather than to the side.
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03-03-2009, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Venom6:
Hello robbt: during my time there (1975-1991 active service) officers purchased their equipment and supplies from several different vendors. One was Nudelman's, a menswear store downtown; they had uniforms and some supplies like badges, holsters, flashlights, gloves, and some other items in the basement. There was another cool police supply outfit in Oregon City, whose name escapes me from this distant place. That's where I ordered the above-mentioned magnificent 686 4". As for Frisbees, yes, that was a small one-man leather shop on N. Greely Ave. When I hired on they supplied all our leather gear (which was minimal - gunbelt, holster, cuff case). Usually when I went in there I dealt with a younger native North American gal, who did in fact know the business. Don't know if it was Frisbee's daughter or someone else. Within a few years we went to the Safety Speed holster, which was a well-designed break-front, but not as good as some others (it was impossible to get a final firing grip on the revolver in the Safety Speed; you had to bump the gun forward, then shift your grip into final position as it rocked out of the holster). The first auto holsters were a superb Ernie Hanson design.
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Venom,
The place in Oregon City was E&E Equipment. I got several guns there.
There was a place called Bwana Junction just down the street from the 3rd & Oak police station. There were no deals there, but Joe Lee, the owner, did come up with some pretty neat stuff.
Best,
Gary
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03-03-2009, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wickahoney:
Venom: I think the outfit in Oregon City was Northwest Police Supply. I went down to Portland from Idaho State Police in 1972 but I showed up just about the same time as Bruce Baker was appointed Chief and Goldshmidt was Mayor. I knew I didn't/wouldn't/couldn't fit in. I moved up the river and worked at Wasco County for 7 years till I came back to Idaho and got my degree so I could go to the Feds.
Geez I spent a ton of money at Northwest Police Supply!!!!!!
Marc: I just checked my S&W file folder and we/the county used Northwest.
I carried a Bianchi 5BHL Highride till OSP went to the Nelson Break fronts after one of the guys in Hood River got his duty weapon snatched out of those low ride swivel holsters they wore back then. After that the Sheriff order us to carry them to. The nice part was they were good about building one for the 5" Model 27 I carried back then. It's still out in the gun room in my leather box.
Oh, back to the original question, I carried a 4" S&W Model 15 with 38s in it. The only NON Magnum I carried in 20 something years.
Ross W Thomas
Great Basin Ranch
Owyhee County, ID
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Ross,
Did you work with Bob Hazlett during your stint with Wasco County?
Best,
Gary
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03-03-2009, 01:16 AM
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Gary: Yes. Bob hired on after I did. Then he worked really really hard and was finally accepted at OSP. I think the issue was his age.
Bob was a great guy. We used to have a taco party at his house couple of months and consume huge volumes of various alcoholic thirst quenchers. ;-)
Ernie Moser was the Sheriff during my stint. My wife worked for the SO also as the graveyard desk clerk/matron. I got fired at The Dalles for covering Rich Carlson down towards Dufur.
Rich died of a bad ticker some years ago.
I spent the last 5 years as the "resident" in Dufur. Probably should have stayed right there.
I got to float the Deshutes at least twice a week in the summer and ran the patrol boat on the Columbia a lot of the time.
The best part of working for Ernie was if you got the call, it was yours. So if you responded to a homicide, you got to be the investigating officer, so you didn't spend your life chasing taillights.
the best
RWT
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03-03-2009, 05:00 PM
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Do any of you folks in Oregon know Dan Hunt, OSP, and/or Stuart Eisenmeyer? Stu worked for several departments.
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03-12-2009, 08:08 PM
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Sorry guys, been out of the loop for almost two weeks.
Marc1911: if your wife was sworn during that time period I almost certainly knew of her; would you be comfortable telling me her/your name? (I tried to e-mail you but couldn't get it to send...). It wasn't me on the raft trip, though it sounds like quite an adventure.
K22: I knew Bob Hazelett when he was an OSP trooper; quite a guy. IIRC he got jammed up trying to unionize the troopers. I once sold him a gun (Ithaca LSA-55D .22-250 HB).
Thank you all for a wonderful discussion. Best regards. Venom 6 actual (Craig Ward)
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03-12-2009, 09:12 PM
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Venom - Welcome back!
Her name is Wilda Stratton and she was one of the 8 officers that Penny Herrington had to lay off (I think it was 85?). Her FTO during that time was Marilyn Lay, and she worked out of Central almost the entire time she was with PPB.
I think I can say that you were lucky not being on the trip. A detective Johnson (can't remember his first name) who was also a hostage negotiator was our river guide and it was a very memorable, cold, fiasco. Still had a good time though.
Regards
Marc
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03-12-2009, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
There was a place called Bwana Junction just down the street from the 3rd & Oak police station. There were no deals there, but Joe Lee, the owner, did come up with some pretty neat stuff.
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That brings back good memories. Bwana Junction was a great place. As a dumb teen, we were treated well there.
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11-27-2012, 01:34 AM
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Olde thread...but have a pic of the Frisbee Holster I carried for the Lake Oswego, Oregon PD back in about '66. Also had a leg strap that I'm still looking for. Impossible to draw seated in a car. S&W Model 10 .38sp with 6" barrel. No clue where I bought them but the reference to Nudleman's downstairs police supply seemed familiar.
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11-28-2012, 01:01 AM
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This is an old one for sure but I have really enjoyed reading through it.
I am curious though, if anyone ever carried, or was allowed to carry a
.44 Magnum as a duty gun?
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11-28-2012, 01:33 AM
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Actually, the place "on the hill" in Oregon City was called E&H Machine. The name alway's threw me, but, they had guns, overheads, and could sell you anything you wanted .They treated Oregon coppers with great respect, and one of my dept. buddies retired and went to work for them.
The newest place going is 911 Supply in Keizer, Oregon. It is owned by a Keizer PD reserve officer.
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03-30-2015, 06:45 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tall Timber of N.W.Orygun
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Ok guys I know this is digging up a real old one, but I have a question and answer. I ran across this thread trying to find info on a Frisbie holster I picked up in a box of stuff. Even though I am a forum member, a simple google search sent led me to this thread. Wow---even though most of you sound 10+ years older than me, I have crossed paths. It was Bill Johnson (detective) that used to river guide. I worked with him in the mid 80's on the Deschutes and White Salmon. Great guy that I have not seen in a long time. And I believe Ross---is Picketpin on the Ruger forum??? Anyhow I have this old Frisbie black holster that I was trying to learn about. Robbt/Happy, is there a market for these??? I was planning to just put it in a grab bag of old black leather. I figured 1 photos of them and a nice cheap price. I'll post a photo prior to listing them if anyone has collector interest. Just let me know.
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03-30-2015, 07:54 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Page/Lake Powell, Arizona
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Not a collector, but still have my old Frisbee holster from when I was on the Lake Oswego, Oregon PD back about 1965. Carried a S&W with 6" barrel. Lost the leg strap somewhere. I remember there was no way to draw sitting in a squad car.
Yeah, I'm olde.
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07-28-2017, 03:27 PM
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Frisbie Holster
I came across this thread while researching my dads (Sgt. John D Hayes)Frisbee holster. I believe he got it when he became a Portland Police Officer in 1939, I also have his S/W 38. Special that was made in 1939. He then went into the Navy in WWII and when the war was over her returned to the police department. My dad and his friend officer Frank Springer battled to start the first police union in the U.S. We went camping back in the late 60's with another officer friend of his named Clay Coffee, anyway's I was wondering if anybody out there new him and had any stories. My dad died back in 83 and he never did talk much about his Navy service or his time as a Portland police officer. He left the force in the early 70's due to health issues.
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07-28-2017, 07:09 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Page/Lake Powell, Arizona
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Guessing you're way ahead of me...but just in case. I Googled "John D Hayes" and Portland police and got some interesting articles. How cool he did the union. Back in my days underground only the union protected us...no OSHA or EPS back then.
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Tags
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645, 686, bianchi, colt, detective, ithaca, k-frame, leather, m19, model 10, model 15, model 19, model 27, model 66, parkerized, punta, recessed, sig arms, smith and wesson, transition, trooper |
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