Michigan State Police, model 38, stainless cylinder

I have posted a couple of times about these MSP issued model 38’s. S&W made them special for us with stainless cylinder’s. Our department wanted them this way since the original blued steel models would sometimes rust around the cylinder since these were carried as a backup gun in the right front uniform pants pocket. The uniform pants had a cloth holster sewn into the right front pocket.

My model 38 was issued in 1966 and replaced once about 1985 due to the alloy frame stretching. I gave this very low round count revolver to my daughter when she retired from MSP. It is staying in the family and not shot so we can preserve the frame. (MSP issued some pretty hot ammo to carry in these guns and just replaced them when the frames showed signs of stretching. I have heard that the frame stretching issue was not as bad with standard pressure ammo.)





Most detectives used this gun as their primary weapon usually with no extra rounds carried. If that does not freak you out, we were trained to shoot them “single action”. I, as well as others. also used a “trigger shoe” on these guns. Set up this way, they were very accurate in the single action mode. I believe that when we were retrained to use the double action mode of shooting, we were ordered to stop using these trigger shoes.

Around Michigan, these MSP “only” issued model 38’s are going for over &1,000 in this condition.

Trooper Joe

PS:

I have transitioned over to a “no lock” model 442-1 when I want to carry. a “J” frame. Even though the 442-1 is rated for +P, I will be carrying “ 38 Special 150gr. Wadcutter Black Cherry Coated Hard Cast ” standard pressure ammo from Underwood. Since I have converted to mostly double action defense shooting, I actually think that this modern 442-1 with upgraded metallurgy is a better gun.

Interesting variation. Any idea how many of these were made? Did they come in a standard blue box?

I can remember when MSP used to carry those big ol' flap holsters on their hip. Yikes! My how times have changed.

dsf said:

Interesting variation. Any idea how many of these were made? Did they come in a standard blue box?

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No idea how many were made. I got one of the first ones with a stainless cylinder in 1966. I think that 20 years later they were still issuing them.

My daughter came in in 1987 and was issued one of the stainless hammerless “J” frames in .357 (only allowed to carry .38 ammo however). She feels that something like the 442-1 would have been better.

I believe my first one came in the standard blue box.

Trooper Joe

Trooper Joe said:

No idea how many were made. I got one of the first ones with a stainless cylinder in 1966. I think that 20 years later they were still issuing them.

My daughter came in in 1987 and was issued one of the stainless hammerless “J” frames in .357 (only allowed to carry .38 ammo however). She feels that something like the 442-1 would have been better.

I believe my first one came in the standard blue box.

Trooper Joe

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Correction, I just checked with my daughter. When she came in she was issued a model 60 (stainless with exposed hammer). Later, she was issued the stainless, hammerless, .357 model. The troops used these until they switched from Sig Sauer 40 cal to Glock 17s about 2017. At that time they were also issued Glock 26’s for a pocket/backup gun.

Trooper Joe

Nice guns, great picture of you and your daughter.

Great gun ! would love to find one and be willing to pay the price of admission. My fathers stepbrother was a MSP Trooper. All I have at this point is a key fob and a cool MSP coffee cup !

Thanks for showing

Nice photo, Joe.

Cool gun and story. I've seen a few of these but I think S & W may have made them for other agencies or sold overruns to the general public.

"My daughter came in in 1987 and was issued one of the stainless hammerless “J” frames in .357 (only allowed to carry .38 ammo however). She feels that something like the 442-1 would have been better."

I looked at the photo of the two of you, then realized she started 35 years ago! Happy retirement to the both of you!

Trooper Joe great picture of you and your Daughter. If a child follows their Father into his chosen profession of LE it is a great honor.

Great picture Trooper !!! Our dept would not allow backup guns let alone issue them !! My Seecamp stayed well hidden.

Having entered L.E. back in the day of revolvers, officers carrying autos were few & far between. It seems that relatively few departments marked their firearms. My own State agency marked shotguns from 1970's but did not mark their sidearms until the 1980's (Model 681's). Prior to the 681's, Troops were issued Model 10 H.B.'s of various vintage. Some of the older Troops at that time, had previously been issued a mixture of Colt Official Police and S&W HD's. These were mix of 4" & 5" barrels, carried in right-hand swivel holsters. Those were replaced by the Model 10 H.B.'s. in the 1970's. After the 681's, the Division transitioned to its first auto, the Beretta 96D. The Berettas gave way to the Sig 226 then the SIG 226 DAK, both in .40 S&W. With recent transition to SIG 320's (9mm), they now even issue a second weapon as backup. "Second" weapons were frowned upon when I started. Off-duty carry was actually against policy. Now it is expected.
Over the years I've seen numerous M38's fitted with stainless cylinders. Were the MSP-issued revolvers agency marked? Did the fall into into a certain serial # range or procurement years?

Trooper Joe, nice informative post. Thank you to you and your daughter for your service.

CHARLIE699 said:

Having entered L.E. back in the day of revolvers, officers carrying autos were few & far between. It seems that relatively few departments marked their firearms. My own State agency marked shotguns from 1970's but did not mark their sidearms until the 1980's (Model 681's). Prior to the 681's, Troops were issued Model 10 H.B.'s of various vintage. Some of the older Troops at that time, had previously been issued a mixture of Colts and S&W's. After the 681's, the Division transitioned to its first auto, the Beretta 96D. The Berettas gave way to the Sig 226 then the SIG 226 DAK, both in .40 S&W. With recent transition to SIG 320's (9mm), they now even issue a second weapon as backup. "Second" weapons were frowned upon when I started. Off-duty carry was actually against policy. Now it is expected.
Over the years I've seen numerous M38's fitted with stainless cylinders. Were the MSP-issued revolvers agency marked? Did the fall into into a certain serial # range or procurement years?

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Thanks for the information. I was not aware that other departments were issued stainless cylinder model 38’s. We did not mark them but we did mark the heavy barrel model 10’s which were the main uniform gun. I have no idea what serial number range of these model 38 stainless cylinder guns went to MSP. It would be nice if someone at S&W could provide that information.

I do remember that some of our detectives were issued automatics (these were usually confiscated guns). I was promoted to Detective/Sergeant in 1974 and was issued a Browning HiPower. I was assigned to an undercover unit and the department encouraged us to carry a “non police” looking gun. Several years later, and at my request, I was issued a confiscated Colt Commander in .45 acp. I remember that in both cases, after several weeks of fighting the weight of these guns on my belt, I went back to my air-weight model 38.

The firearms unit staff for over 20 years (about 1965 to 1985) did not care for automatics. They did not agree with the plain clothes troopers being issued these confiscated guns. In 1989, after these staff members retired, MSP transitioned to the SigSauer model 226 9mm guns for uniform Troopers. Plain clothes officers were issued Sig Sauer model 225 9mm guns. A short time later, plain clothes officers were issued model 228 9mm guns.

Even though Troopers were issued model 226 sidearms, the department continued to issue “J” frame revolvers as a backup and off duty until about 2017 when they transition from the Sig Sauer platform to the Glock 17. At that time, Troopers were issued Glock 26 guns for a backup and off duty.

(This is about the best I can do with my somewhat rusty memory.)

Trooper Joe

Interesting and informative Post.
Do you recall what Ammunition caused the Frame Stretching?
Those of us with Alloy J Frames would love to know!

Trooper Joe said:

It would be nice if someone at S&W could provide that information.

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This is a fascinating thread.

I would be willing to bet that Dr. Roy Jinks, not S&W, is the only one who has those records.

Members of the S&W Collectors Association have access to Roy and his archives through the "ship date request" and "questions" forums on the S&WCA (private) side of the forum. Just a thought.

You fellas and gals must have worn baggy pants to be able to comfortably carry a revolver in your front pocket? Up here in the Great White North we had built in holsters in our winter parka right pocket but the coat was long and big and not a problem. Interesting to learn how our uniform brothers in the U.S. were issued and used equipment that is typically designed and purchased by people who didn't use or have to wear it. As a side note to a post above, I'm also from the revolver era (joined in 1978) and was issued my "extra" 6 rounds of .38 +P ammunition in a small leather pouch to be carried in a trouser pocket. No such thing as a speed loader and carrying extra ammunition in loops on our Sam Browne belts. Things slowly changed from the dark ages in the mid 80's when we finally progressed from an off side carry flap holster (pictured below) to a "open" strong side security holster (Rodgers "The Boss") at the behest of management who still had their heads in the sand. Our Police Association had to petition for the change for "health and safety" reasons. Another problem that came up with the change in holsters was that some of us were issued a Colt. I was issued a 50's era Colt Official Police along with several other recruits in my class. My Police Force was issuing both Colt's and Smith & Wessons when I finished training but the new security holsters only fit a K frame S&W. Because of that I was issued a new S&W Model 64. We finally transitioned to the semi-auto pistol in 1995 (Glock Model 22), I retired in 2015. I'm on the left, my cousin on the right at his graduation from the Police College in 1985. My issued spare ammunition pouch and leather billy. We carried the billy in a deep pocket in the rear right side pants pocket.

THE PILGRIM said:

Interesting and informative Post.
Do you recall what Ammunition caused the Frame Stretching?
Those of us with Alloy J Frames would love to know!

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Mid range wad cutters can do it. Just have to shoot enough of them. From now on my 638 is going to be a "carried often, shot little" gun. You can't win a fight against the laws of nature. Lightweight guns aren't strong. They can't be. Others may disagree but that is my policy.

I bought a Taurus 605 for shooting orgies.

THE PILGRIM said:

Interesting and informative Post.
Do you recall what Ammunition caused the Frame Stretching?
Those of us with Alloy J Frames would love to know!

Click to expand...

We qualified 4 times a year using 50 rounds of wadcutter ammo each time. The carry ammo was at first the old time lead round nose ammo and later changed to some type of so called “high speed” ammo (I believe this was before the +P designation).

The department knew this was taxing the frames but these guns were relatively low cost and they wanted the troops to have the best ammo possible.

The 50 rounds of wadcutter ammo 4 times a year was enough to stress these 50’s metallurgy alloy frames. In addition, we were required to first shoot the 5 rounds of carry ammo we had in the guns every time we qualified. I only turned in one gun after about 10 or 12 years and was issued the one shown in this thread.

The stretching issue was usually identified when the shooter on your right or left complained about getting hit with lead shavings. The guns seemed to vary on how fast this happened. In my case, in addition to the qualification shooting 4 times a year, I was an avid hand loader and probably stressed my gun faster than others. This was not so much with hot loads, but just shooting it more often. (Remember the craze about loading cast hollow base wad cutter bullets backwards? I sure would not want to go to court now days after using that round.)

A side note here (and full disclosure). As has been mentioned a number of times, most cops are not gun guys. These shrouded hammer guns (the hammer could still be cocked) would sometimes get so full of pocket lint in the hammer shroud area that you could not pull the trigger. As fate would have it however, these “non gun guys” quite often arrested the most dangerous felons. These arrests were not facilitated so much with the hand guns but rather with the 12 guage pump shotgun carried in the patrol car. In fact I remember working with a “cub” (a new trooper fresh out of the academy) when we got out of the patrol car and approached a building that appeared to have been broken into. The “cub” had his model 38 in his hand. I asked him what the heck he was doing. I told him to put the 5 shot back in his pocket an grab the 12 gauge.

Oh well, I am afraid I am turning this thread into a “war story” column.

Trooper Joe

max503 said:

Mid range wad cutters can do it. Just have to shoot enough of them. From now on my 638 is going to be a "carried often, shot little" gun. You can't win a fight against the laws of nature. Lightweight guns aren't strong. They can't be. Others may disagree but that is my policy.

I bought a Taurus 605 for shooting orgies.

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I remember that one MSP full time firearms instructor telling me that he loaned out his model 38 so many times (the troops would forget to bring theirs into the range) that he turned his in for replacement every couple of years. I have been told by Smith and Wesson that the modern alloy frame guns like the 442 have a lot better metallurgy. That is probably why my daughter was first issued an all stainless model 60 when she came in in 1987.