Introduction: There has been quite a bit of discussion concerning the use of +P ammunition in the alloy framed S&W model 12s (M12). The M12, or the “.38 Military and Police Airweight,” debuted in 1952 and was discontinued in 1986 with the -4 engineering change. Throughout its entire production run, it carried the limitation of not being blessed by the manufacturer for use with +P ammunition. However, this forum, and I suspect many others, have hosted numerous debates about the feasibility, safety, and/or prudence of firing +P ammo through a “vintage” model 12. The spectrum of positions on this issue is as wide as the group size from a Taurus revolver, but all positions fit fairly nicely into the three categories below.

* NEVER fire +P ammo through a model 12. The possible consequences exceed the benefits. If the frame cracks, the factory will not repair it.

* SOME +P can be fired through a model 12. Practice predominantly with standard pressure .38s and finish off your session with a couple of cylinders full of +P.

* SHOOT as much +P as you want (or can afford). It will produce no more wear on a model 12 then it will on any other S&W revolver.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody has conducted, or at least published a report on, a quantitative test to see how many – if any – rounds of +P a model 12 can handle before incurring some sort of fatal career ending failure (such as a cracked frame). At first, I was going to test an M12 to this point of failure, but wiser forum members convinced me otherwise. As you’ll see in the hypothesis below, I, possibly “we,” will attempt to get 1,000 rounds of commercially manufactured +P ammo fired through the subject revolver. The test will conclude at the 1,000 round mark or at the point the gun breaks.

For ease of reference, I’m imbedding the following unique search term into this topic:

wanker


Hypothesis: That a Smith and Wesson model 12-2 can fire 1,000 commercially produced .38 special +P rounds without damage of a type that cannot be repaired (i.e. the infamous “cracked frame”).

The Test Format: The format is pretty simple. A log will be kept and posted on this forum of the brand, bullet type/weight, product number (if available), lot number (if available), number of rounds fired, and the date in which they were fired. I/we will also post the date and type maintenance performed on the subject gun. The test will conclude when the round count reaches 1,000 (or slightly over) or when the gun breaks to a degree that it can’t be readily repaired.

The Gun: Smith & Wesson Model 12-2, serial number D6542xx (c.’73-’74). I purchased this gun used on September 27, 2003. The gun did NOT have its proprietary wooden grips at the time of purchase and as such, it was equipped with some kind of full wrap around rubber grip. From the day of purchase, to 27 AUG 2007, it has only fired 160 rounds of standard pressure .38 special.

Grip: The current grip is an Uncle Mikes (UM) round butt (RB) boot grip with craft foam inserts installed in the gap between the M12’s narrow frame and the standard frame accommodations of the boot grip (see photo). It will be noted during the testing period if and when the grips, or any other part, are replaced.


M12 in Galco holster

.... Osprey

I know this is long after you made your post on the M12 with +P ammo. I just bought a 4" SQ. butt in NIB condition. Curious about it, I wrote to S&W and they said NO +P. My revolver is D657XXX so I assume it is '73-'74 based on your sample. I located a M12-4" ROUND BUTT, this afternoon. It is the first one I have seen. Why it calls to me I can only guess, but it feels very good in the hand.
It is too bad that the alloys now in use were not used in the M12 series. I like the +P ammo.
There seems to be many NIB condition M12 revolvers available now. Why, I can only speculate, but a local shop has several.
Now the issue is should I even use this fine condition gun or collect it. I don't like collecting, I like using.

I'm not sure I understand the logic behind the original poster's test when there are countless affordable used S&W's out there that can be used with +p ammo (per manufacturer's recommendations.)

If Ford tells me not to use a certain type of Goodyear tire on their Explorer, why am I going to try and prove them wrong?

Oh well, I saw a 2 inch Model 12 a few weeks ago that I would've loved to have, regardless if it can shoot +p or not.

Nothing like resurrecting a thread that's been dead 3 years!

Moondawg and others, My thing with the M12 is it is a nice looking and feeling packing piece. I rarely shoot my everyday use guns, but practice, and recently started IDPA, with an all steel M19-4". It is the first K-frame alloy frame gun I ever bought. I carried many J-frame guns. I traded a M60-2.125"-.357 for this M12. The M60 was too heavy for a pocket gun and if I have to wear a holster, I am going to carry a bigger gun.
Yes, I know I should be practicing more with the carry gun - but I found I can still shoot pretty good with any S&W that fits the hand. After decades of Glock use I fell in love with revolver shooting, all over again. The round butt model I found at an area store is nice and I do have this thing about having one for show and one for go.
I enjoyed finding this old thread. Thanks for your input.

Don, do what you want with your gun. My discussions on +P are motivated by this wild, erroneous notion (that you apparently share) that +P is somehow harmful to a quality made gun. There is no need to avoid +P as it's a very mild load that is 3,000 PSI below industry standards for the caliber. You don't to look for a gun "approved for +P" since EVERY 38 Special revolver is approved for +P.

Saxon, I will most likely use my last box of Federal 158 gr. +P Nyclad. I use it in several guns now. It was a good load and it is too bad Federal stopped making it. The M12 I just bought is a very fine carry gun. As the weather cools I can wear a coat, which means I add a belt gun to the hardware. I always have a M642 where I carried it for back up for so many decades. After I retired I was attacked by a Rhodesian Ridgeback, as we practiced so often, I put my left hand into its mouth, grabbed it jaw and reached for my Glock. Opps, it wasn't there anymore.

Don,sent you PM
gagunner 2

Just to keep the record straight, it was former moderator Osprey that conducted the test.

No truer words have been spoken in this entire thread. I have owned three Model 12's, am down to one now. At the range with 20 or more rounds of standard pressure ammo the web of your hand starts to really sting, and with +P there is an obvious different that is even more uncomfortable.

One reason for this is that with the M12 there are not many grip options until you get to the 12-4. Even RB airweight J frames have better availabe shooting grips (ex. Uncle Mike's combats, Pachmeyr and Hogue rubbers, etc.) than the M12's wood and metal.

While this is undoubtedly true for some, for others it is not. Myself, I find a RB Model 12 with stock magnas and a Tyler to be very comfortable with standard ammo, and acceptable with 158 gr +P. The SB Model 12 equipped the same way is almost as comfortable, but not quite as fast to get my hand around. This business of fitting grips to the hand is very individual, and sometimes a bit tricky, which is why what stiab says about grip availability is so important. BTW, the 12-4, made from 1984 to 1986, uses standard K-frame grips.

That's an old thread revisited that I haven't seen in a while.

I used to carry a 12-3 2" RB. I got it used, it had belonged to a LEO who used it as his BUG before I got it. I don't know if he was the original owner. I paid 350 for it.

I used it as a pocket gun for a while. Made my own holster out of Cheezit boxes and tape. Worked great. Some rubberbands and tape helped with the grips, though I think that Badger can offer custom grips?

Anyway, on a whim I traded it for a 3" 31-1 in .32 S&W long here on the forum, still have that little .32. There was nothing wrong with it and it was a handy revolver. I wish they made a modern version of it.

I didn't worry about using +P ammo in it. I liked, at the time, the Remington 158gr +P LHP rendition of the old FBI load.

Compared to the 337 that I once had, the 12-3 snub seemed tame in its handling.

Some things never change...sprey

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