http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/P...&parent_category_rn=

Think the new Smith & Wesson M-627 could bring back the revolver among peace officers as a service weapon? I mean, it has 8 shots and has much more power than a .40 Glock.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/P...&parent_category_rn=

Think the new Smith & Wesson M-627 could bring back the revolver among peace officers as a service weapon? I mean, it has 8 shots and has much more power than a .40 Glock.

I certainly would carry one if I were a peace officer.

+ 1.

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SWCA #2420

Frankly, I would be happy with a 625 (or a 624) in the 4" persuasion. The 625 offers the faster reload. However, if you can shoot, normally six will get the job done.

We've have had some seriously embarrassing shoot-outs in this area from untrained officers. In one, 13 shots were fired by two officers at a range measured in feet with NO hits. In this case, it was a blessing as the target was the innocent home owner who called 911 reporting a prowler (he made the serious error in judgment in having a gun in his hand in a back lighted situation on his own front porch).

I believe that high capacity autos can "encourage" that sort of performance from Officers who are not well trained. A pox on political subdivisions that will not allocate sufficient funds for proper training of their officers.

Dale53

I'd certainly buy one if it did not have a hole in its side..

I'm afraid the days of the revolver as a service weapon are over.You may find a few small forces using them or forces that make you purchase your own gun and allow you the choice of make and style. The cost of a well made pistol compared to that of a 627 revolver would be the biggest mountain to climb. I to would like to see the revolver on our officers belts. Out of 12 handguns I only own one semi-auto and I received it as a family hand me down.

Dale; Most of the time Police Officers are being hired as just "another" employee. I know Departments that don't even 'allow' their "off duty" Officers to "carry" a 'sidearm'. And, while I don't have any current figures; the number of LEOs who simply aren't shooters is getting higher and higher every year. In the '70s and '80s the "AVERAGE" LEO had already gotten some firearms training while being in the Military. These days we have more and more "Candidates" who have little or no firearms training. And, even fewer are coming out of the Military and going into LE or even the Rent-a-Cop business because they have had "enough" and I don't blame them. There once was a time when we had lots of "kids" getting out of the 'hood' and into the Military. They turned out to be really good Soldiers - some of the best I ever worked with had been Drafted.

The Military Service turned them around and taught them things like "responsibility" and "honesty" and "loyalty" as well as a bit about shooting. Without the Volume of new Recruits, well, it's a pretty good guess that the current crop of LEOs isn't going to be getting any better. I don't know of a single Agency that it's understaffed and the lack of a Draft is one of the Major reasons for this condition. Our State Patrol is down by 75+ Officers simply because they can't find people to fill the bill.

Jeff Cooper always said that he could train a group to comparable levels of proficiency with autos in less much time than revolvers. Love my revolvers, but for mass issue, I think the auto pistol is here to stay. For an officer who has a choice, a .357 is still a great gun.

Sir, the world's a funny place, and weird things do happen, but I would be absolutely astounded if any department were to dump their autos in favor of revolvers.

JMHO, FWIW.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

I am not a Police Officer just the brother of a retired one.As the NYPD went from the revolvers to the semi-auto 9mm's marksmanship has gone out the window.It seems to be that 21+ shots fired is the exception rather than the rule reflecting a spray and pray mentality.I donot anticipate any improvement in this trend because many LEO's aren't gun people and don't practice in the area where I live.That I don't get........God Bless.....Mike

I would go with the 327 myself, because of the weight.

With no offense intended towards police, most are not gun people, most now do not even remember when revolvers were used, many do not know the "manual of arms" for revolvers, they are used to short easy triggers, high capacity magazines and most cannot really handle the recoil of the .357 Magnum, and back in the day, the N frame was not all that popular and was too big for the smaller framed officers.

In addition, most police are not on the forefront of weapons, revovlers are for experts only these days and most police are not, and although civil liability concerns would dictate that management arm most officers with a night stick and radio, this is not likely.

Every time I read of an officer opening fire with the issue 16 shot DAO Beretta 92D models in St. Louis, emptying 3 mags and getting no hits, I think they would be better off with Model 64s like they had before - at least there would be less rounds flying around to hit bystanders.

In the near term, at least, I am afraid we are stuck with police armed to the teeth, with shaved heads, wearing pajamas (BDUs) to work and conducting armed raids on the populace like they were military special ops units - a direction in civilian law enforcement that I, for one, think is a decidedly bad idea.

It is very unfortunate, but when I was growing up, I was taught that the policeman was my friend, that he would always do what was right and that he would protect me to the best of his ability. We have progressed to a point where many police seem to have the idea it is "us" against "them," and even good citizens of my acquaintance basically do not trust the police.

"Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio?"

Lots of Departments don't budget much money for firearms training. The new laptop, multi-band radios, Tasers, Pepper Spray, Mace etc. all cost Dollars and all require Training Dollars!

Now, start off with Officers without much firearms training beyond what they see on the Boob Tube and the Big Screen, well, "Spray and Pray" is the name of the game.

9MM isn't "known" as a 'one shot stopper' even on the Tube, let alone in "reality"!!! An Officer goes out with a caliber that is less than 'close to idea' and figures(TV & the Movies, again) every third Dirt Bag out there is armed with an Uzi or Mac 10 or some other Full Automatic firearm and the "Spray and Pray" is again the name of the game.

Now, it the Departments stopped wasting Dollar$$$ on all the "Other Options" and actually spend time teaching their Officers to shoot and to shoot first when presented with a likely deadly threat then I would guess even the DBs would finally get the idea that giving up is the easy way out. Now they just run like hell and shoot whatever and whenever they can. It works on the Tube so it's work for them.

Were I to carry a revolver again in plainclothes, I would probably go with a 41 mag, 44 special, or 45 colt.

If I were to carry in uniform, a 686 without a doubt. It's a weight thing.

If there is any silver lining in the semiauto cloud it is the issue of weight.

For those who have never carried a sidearm for eight hours (even in a patrol car) it can really be a drag (pun alert).

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I am a sheep dog!
1601 (ret)

Nope.

Way too expensive, too heavy, unfamiliar manual of arms to learn . . . and a size and shape that seems "old fashioned" to the young cops of today.

Too bad . . . cops who would tote it would soon appreciate it's accuracy and stopping power vs. the typical spray 'n pray Tupperware of today . . . and they would learn to be more conservative and accurate if they had to use it too!

Me? Yeah, I'd like it . . . but like it better in a six-shot, moon-clipped 3 1/2" M625 .45ACP

T.

I am not a LEO and have never played on on TV. However, I and several close friends in my local gun club worked closely with our police dept several years ago. We had several Officers as club members. We had a police dept that had a PPC Champion Police Chief and a heck of a good program. The police were TAUGHT to shoot and shoot well. That is all pretty much gone by the wayside.

We do have excellent training facilities and some good instruction available for our local police. The big problem is the politicians will not spring for adequate money for ammunition. That is pretty dern short sighted as a bad shooting can cost a department millions. The better trained policemen are, the less apt they are to be involved in a bad shooting. Makes perfect economic sense to me, but most politicians don't see the big picture - it is always "bottom line, today"...

Dale53

If Glock or Sig bought a license and started making them, then yes.

Mike

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9x19, 9x29R, 9x33R, 10x22

The sad fact of the matter is that it is just too easy to train personnel to a minimum level of profeciency with a semi auto. Easy to operate, easy to reload, and has lots and lots of ammo-not that we are training our reruits to use the ammo effectively. We train to the minimum standard allowed by the individual state(usually pretty basic), and then do the minimum to maintain ability. Particularly in big cities most recruits have never held a weapon prior to the academy-unless they were previously a gang member.

In defense of the "new kids on the block".
I'm guessing, that there are going to be an AWFUL lot of great shooters exiting the most recent (and continuing) unpleasantness. Just like they did (again, without much credit for their abilities) from the S/E Asian war games.
I'll put my money on this generation. No matter what they're packing!
(But I hope they're smart enough to use a wheel gun as back up!) Sorry? Couldn't resist...

Speaking just about the 627 and it's suitability, I'll have to say it's questionable. I've had a JM PC627 V-Comp for years - too big. My 627 Pro is just less than five months old now - and I love it dearly. Reloading - like with it's older and larger sibling - is a problem.

Sure - moonclips are faster... but, try to align those spindly & spider-like legs when you are in a hurry. I know the faster reloading 625JM of mine will put more rounds downrange in a minute - and with great power, too. It's short and squat rounds leap into the charge holes, at least to me. Perhaps it's familiarity - practice.

I vote with loaded ammo. I have a dozen 627 8 slot moonclips loaded in a Glad ware box for SPC use - pretty mild loads. I have two such boxes each with sixteen 625 6 slot moonclips full - again, for SPC use. Then there is the the metal ammo box with 105 moonclips loaded for the 625JM - both easily accessed if needed - Zombie protection!

Sure, the 627 X8 would be great in a world where the bad guys didn't tote hi-cap bottom-feeders, much less Uzis and Mac-10s. Of course, in a more civilized world, they'd likely not even need the 627's capacity. Sad, huh?



Stainz

As a full-time peace officer for the last 27 years, and as a S&W revolver lover in general and an N frame fan in particular, I can tell you that no way, no how will you ever see a police department issue 8 shot N frame .357 revolvers.

First, way too expensive. The most commonly issued, and privately purchased, handgun in American law enforcement is the .40 caliber Glock. Glock will sell a department two, three or four of them for what S&W can sell one M-627 to them.

Second is size and weight. Today's uniformed officer has a lot of gear on his duty belt- a handgun, a pair of magazines, a portable radio, one or two pairs of handcuffs, o.c. spray, probably a baton or flashlight and often a Taser. Quite a load. The M-627 carries 8 shots and weighs more than a 16 shot Glock.

I was qualified with a half dozen N frame .357's back in the day, 3-1/2, 5 inch M-27's, 4 and 6 inch M-28's and a 4 inch M-520, and carried all of them at one time or another on duty, but they seemed pretty big and heavy compared to my normal M-66. Very few of my fellow deputies carried N frames, feeling that they were too heavy. Our state Highway Patrol issued the 3-1/2 inch M-27 but the platterheads I knew all appreciated the smaller, more compact, lighter 9mm H&K P-7 when they got them, at least their carrying qualities if not their stopping power.

The N frame has always needed average-to-large sized hands to shoot double action. I have a couple of experienced shooter male friends with small hands that just can't shoot one well with even Magna grips. The M-627 wouldn't work for them or the majority of female officers I work with. By comparison, most of those same folks carry and shoot double-column magazine Glocks just fine.

Momentum or 'customary practice' is a factor. Police departments tend to do things because other police departments do them. Sometimes a department will like to be the first kid on the block to adopt something new, but nobody will see the double action revolver, no matter which caliber or variant, as something "new."

The .357 Magnum revolver is still a viable fighting tool in trained hands, but the very things that made it viable in the past, stopping power and reliability, are available now in semiautomatics that are cheaper, lighter, hold more cartridges and are faster and easier to reload than any .357 revolver can be. The .357 Mag's strongest feature, stopping power, is nearly obtained from many smaller, less powerful cartidges due to today's improved bullet technology.

The 8 shot M-627 is a fantastic revolver. I love mine, but if I ever got permission to qualify with and carry one on duty, I might do it for the novelty of it for a while, but in the end I woukld probably quickly go back to my semiautomatic Government Model and Commander. And folks tell me that THOSE make me look like a dinosaur!

No.

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Centennial Every Day

When I first started shooting I though all LEOs, Military, Agency people were gun people. I mean they carry a gun all the time for work and are required to qualify to some level of proficiency. I've found that is not the case.

I expect there are more and more LEOs that wouldn't carry a gun or at least are not interested in carrying a gun if it were not a job requirement, and only qualify because it is part of their job. Otherwise they could care less, don't shoot, don't know guns and so on.

I've met LEOs that have no idea what gun they carry, what caliber it is or even the most basic information about it.

It's scary that the general non-gun populace thinks that only LEOs should be able to carry guns. Somehow they think that because they are LEO they must be more proficient, knowledgable and responsible and far better trained with a gun than the "average joe"

It's a myth.

I doubt most Law enforcement agencies will ever revert back to a revolver...I personally carry 2 revolvers on duty...But they are back up guns...I have alternate duty guns we can carry that if we are assigned to the detective division we can carry....

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M.J.Hanna

I'm trying to understand the statement I've read a couple of times in here that the semi auto is easier to use and/or train police with?
One of the advantages of a revolver is it's simplicity. It's easier to handle, fewer things to remember, fewer things to keep up with, fewer things to go wrong, and easier to explain to the first time shooter.

Also, some talk like the revolver is an "old" or "outdated" weapon. Well High capacity autos aren't anything new. They've been around at least since 1935 or 36 with the invention of the Browning Hi Power 9mm.
Revolvers have their own advantages. As several have rightly noted, it's not how many shots you can shoot, it's what you can hit with your first shot.
Thinking on tactics have changed before.
In my mind, and I'm in no way a policeman or military man, this trend towards high capacity autos...in a sense, is like the 6 year old boy who has this mentality that "more is better. I've got more bullets than you"

As said, I'm no cop, but I am an average citizen with a gun and carry it everywhere. Right now I have a S&W M-15 on my belt. Usually I carry a Colt Official Police or Detective Special.
I hvae two automatics, one of them high capacity Sig 9mm the other a high caliber .45 1911. I almost never touch them, except once every month or so for shooting fun or just to hang it on my belt for the day just to stay familiar with them.
But if I were in trouble, I'd much rather have this M-15 than my Sig 226 9mm.

I agree with your second paragraph, and do not underestimate its importance. In the end, I believe that most cops should be carrying revolvers.

However, as far as teaching someone to shoot well enough to qualify, many autos (DAO's, Blocks, High Powers and 1911's, for instance) have only one trigger pull, unlike most revolvers and all "traditional DA" autoloaders. This is a big advantage, and is probably what those posters are referring to.

Hope this answers your question.

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Formerly Model520Fan

hmm. maybe it's because a revolver was my first gun or that I grew up shooting those DA toy revolver cap guns, but a DA revolver feels just like one trigger pull to me (I guess unless the timing is off like the bolt not clearing the cylinder or something else clunky to throw off hte action). But I guess that's just me

I don't care much about which platform is chosen for any given department. I just would like to see marksmanship emphasized, rewarded, and held in high esteem.

My friends who are in LE who also happen to be shooters carry 1911s. Of course, in their dept they get issued a Glock, but can carry almost whatever they can qualify with. Like I said, all the shooters seem to carry 1911s.

In a dept where guys can carry what they want I could see a few maybe using the 627, but there are a few issues with it. 1, the 4" model is heavier than a 5" all steel 1911 (which is pretty heavy itself). 2, cost (though about the same as a nice 1911). 3, familiarity - most new shooters who are cops were probably raised with semi-autos so they will stick with what they are familiar with. 4, reloading - if the 4" one isn't cut for moonclips then reloading will be a fair amount slower. Stacked moonclips seem pretty easy to carry compared to multiple speedloaders.

I don't think anyone would carry a 5" PC one - way too heavy for daily carry.

327 - Maybe. Weight isn't bad at all. Is the Night Guard cut for moonclips? An N-Frame is a bit big for concealed carry for me, but that is just me. Plain clothes cop might not be a big deal though.

Such as the .357 Sig, perhaps?

I became a police firearms instructor back in 1978 or so. Back then it was standard practice to shoot 38 wadcutter in our 357 Smiths and carry 357 for duty. I jumped on board the qualify and train with what you carry shortly there after. Having to fire the issue Remington 125 grain Magnum load revealed that most officers (remember this was back in the time of cops being manly men with height requirements) had great difficulty shooting a decent qual with magnums. Several could not and I had them carry 38 special ammo they could actually qualify with.

We replaced our Model 66 with the 686 the first year they were introduced but officers didn't do much better with the 686. The 357 takes work for an enthusiast and I don't see todays officers embracing a hard recoiling large frame revolver.

The full power 357 in any frame is much less pleasant to shoot than most duty type 9mm, 40, or 45s.

God knows I love revolvers and I own more of them even today than I do autoloaders, but, the fact is, their days are over as service weapons and for good reason.

I retired from the NJSP in 1991, so I was around during our transition from revolvers to semi-autos, my career being a 60/40 split between them with revolvers being the 60. The last incidents in which Jersey Troopers were shot while armed with revolvers (and which prompted our switch to the P7M8 in 1982) both involved lone troopers facing assailants (in one case, multiple assailants) armed with high-capacity semi-automatic pistols. Both troopers emptied their six-shooters and both were shot (one seriously and Trooper Phil Lamonico fatally) before they were able to reload.

It's fun to wax nostalgic about the "good old days" of revolvers, but any advantages they may have are far outweighed by the cold facts that their ammo capacity is minimal and they are just too damn slow to reload under fire compared to autoloaders. On top of this is the fact that, nowadays, there's a virtual guarantee that you'll be facing one or more perps armed with high-cap auto pistols. No matter how proficient you may be with a revolver, this is not a good position to be in. I would no more want to again be a Jersey Trooper armed with a revolver in today's world than I would want to be armed with a bolt-action Springfield '03 rifle in a modern combat environment. The term "undergunned" describes a real world situation and it is for valid, life-and-death reasons why today's police forces are almost universally armed with autoloaders.

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Steve
NJ State Trooper (rtd)

So many good points folks - great discussion.

I'm not a LEO, never was, what I do is teach people to shoot within a Gunsite course and I hunt.

For a first time owner I always suggest a .357 revolver for the simplicity of operation and I suggest they stick to .38spl until they are comfortable to move up to .357.

Revolvers are inherently more capable of accuracy and can be loaded to any level w/o modification to the weapon, save for sight adjustment.

That said, a revolver is more difficult to fire accurately in DA than a semi auto. Sure you can train until your revolver DA work is good, but over time LE agencies tried that and it didn't work. You can more easily train someone to fire a semi auto accurately.

Reloads. Semi Auto hands down for the typical human. Sure, revolver masters like Jerry Miculek can do it and I knew someone else here locally, but they're not typical.

Grip size. Shorter rounds allow a smaller grip frame that can be built up to suit the hand. Change the panels and you're good to go and usually the original grip works. When's the last time you left the original grips on your modern revolver?

Revolvers are my primary handgun of choice. I'm not likely to get into an exchange with someone. I'm more likely to carry in the woods and I need a powerful (.44) and accurate first shot with a follow-up maybe.

When I need to carry for SD - rare, but its happened - I reach for a semi auto in .45acp. I would carry a 1911 for daily SD duties if I had a need and a choice and I'd leave the revolver in the safe.