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12-27-2008, 09:04 PM
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SG688 and I were talking earlier this evening about the guns of the gunners during the 30's 40's and 50's. Today we have all types of factory made combat revolvers but what we would like to see are those guns of old that were modified to be handier, more accurate or easier to use. The cut-down 1917 in the pre-45 section got us going on this thread. Let's see your Fitz's,cut-downs,modified Kings, Smiths as well as Colts. If you know the stories behind your gun, share it to. Let's revisit and hopefully add to this older thread. All my best, Joe.
Last edited by Joe Kent; 11-08-2015 at 05:54 PM.
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12-27-2008, 09:15 PM
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People been customiseing a long time. Here is a american built in 1871 or 1872. Long ago someone had the barrel cut back. It was found hidden in a old barn being tore down in montanna at a place that had been a stagecoach station.
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12-27-2008, 09:15 PM
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This one belonged to a Detroit cop (where the weak are killed and eaten).
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12-28-2008, 06:09 AM
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TxShooter, it counts, did it come from one of your LE friends?
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12-28-2008, 06:57 AM
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Joe, I found that one in a shop in Tyler across from the Smith County jail. Don't know the history behind it...would like to know the backstory though. Seems odd to modify a .38/44 like that when a Combat Masterpiece or Highway Patrolman would've been just as easy to come by.
I was looking for a 4" 19 or 66 at the time. Saw it in the case and thought it was a 4" 28. Maybe I'll get lucky one of these days. The trip before I went out looking for a 4" .357 and came home with a 4" 15-3. No photos of that one. Similarly set up for service use. The trigger stop was gone and the rear sight blade was rounded off, like the 19 in Jordan's "No Second Place Winner." Oddly other target features were retained. Wide target hammer, serrated target trigger, and smooth "football" target grips.
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12-28-2008, 01:45 PM
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James, has your revolver also been reamed to accept .357 mag.?
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12-28-2008, 04:45 PM
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Here is a couple of custom 1899 revolvers , both 3 1/2" barrels. This first one is
a fixed-sighted M&P :
and this second one is target-sighted :
Later, Mike Priwer
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12-28-2008, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Kent:
James, has your revolver also been reamed to accept .357 mag.?
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Nope, still a .38 Special. Right now it's sighted in for Remington's version of the FBI load.
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12-28-2008, 05:54 PM
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Mike, neat guns. Do you know who modified them? Also, in your trading time, have you ever run across any Smiths or Colts modified by George Mathews of Downey, Ca.? I first saw pictures of his cut down M&P's as well as Colt PP's in the 1970 Guns&Ammo annual. At that time the article said he worked on everything up to and including New Services and Heavy Duties as well as everything in between. The ones pictured showed 3in. "King Type" rails and sights,as well as thinned "Bill Jordan" type trigger guards. I have run across many different cut downs but none of his. We ,SG-688, and I have tried to find any and all information on him but to no avail.
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12-28-2008, 05:57 PM
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James,
When are you guys moving back to Texas? BTW, I have a shooter grade M28 that I'll make a deal on next time you're here if you're looking for one.
Wayne
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12-28-2008, 06:02 PM
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Mike, those look great. What would be the price on a 1899 that is in that condition?
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12-28-2008, 06:45 PM
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Joe
I had Dave Chicoine do the work, as part of a design experiment I was working
on. The 1899's can be good guns for that kind of work, because there is no
extractor lug to worry about, therefore, it almost a natural to cut the barrel
from the breech end, and then rethread it. This picture was my initial
experiment :
The problem here is that I started from a 6 1/2" barrel that was buldged
about 1/3 of the way down. The most we could salvage was 3 1/2 inches, but
becuase of the somewhat linear taper of the barrel, it was a bit too small
on its OD, right up near the face of the frame. You can see a big gap between
the extractor rod, and the bottom of the barrel. My plan was to fill that in
with a flat piece extending down from the bottom of the barrel, but it was just
too much. It never would have looked right. It would have salvaged the forged
front sight, but it just wasn't big enough, OD-wise.
So, for the two guns, we elected to cut from the muzzle end, and remount the
front sight. The barrel taper is close, but its still a tad too large at
the muzzle - maybe .030 or .040 too large. The overall appearance, at 3 1/2",
is still very nice.
The right way to do this, for 1899 barrels, is to start with one that is not
more than 1/2" longer from what you want. For a 3 1/2", a 4" barrel would be
ideal. The taper would be perfect, and the only thing that would not be right
would be the roll markings. With those two guns, the target was originally
5 ", and the fixed was 6 1/2". The target had already been refinished once, so
refinishing the barrel again was OK. The fixed had very little finish left anyway,
so it was a good gun to work with.
John -
I don't know how to price refinished 1899's ! I probably have close to $1000
in each one, which only makes sense if you want custom 1899's . My original idea
was to title the project: "What Could Have Been" , based on what the factory
did with registered magnums. Ie, allow any barrel length. Well, with 1899's, it
would have been trivial for them to have offered that !
Later, Mike Priwer
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12-28-2008, 09:42 PM
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Here are a couple shots of my Pre-Victory, which had been semi-Fitzed in the late Forties. Still has the lanyard loop, Fitzed trigger guard and short barrel. The barrel wasn't cut, it is a early post-war snubbie barrel by the serial number, with the proper ejector rod installed. Also, this one does not have a bobbed hammer.
It is a fast shooter too. I took it out to one of the team practices and everyone who shot it on the head plate machine fell in love with it.
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12-29-2008, 04:34 AM
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Okay, what was the thought process behind the cut trigger guard like some of these have?
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12-29-2008, 05:03 AM
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Cutting the trigger guard was supposed to give quicker purchase of the trigger.
I think it's a bad idea, and a light hit on the remaining guard, can collapse it, and tie up the gun. The trigger can also snag, and fire unintentionally.
I've seen much more tasteful thinning of the right side of the trigger guard (right handed shooter) which still gives some trigger protection, while still allowing a bit more access to the trigger.
I do love seeing these old mods.
Always wanted a cut down (about 3") barreled 1917 .45 ACP.
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12-29-2008, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JohnK:
Cutting the trigger guard was supposed to give quicker purchase of the trigger.
I think it's a bad idea, and a light hit on the remaining guard, can collapse it, and tie up the gun. The trigger can also snag, and fire unintentionally.
I've seen much more tasteful thinning of the right side of the trigger guard (right handed shooter) which still gives some trigger protection, while still allowing a bit more access to the trigger.
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Ah, figured it was something like that. I read an old novel a few years ago and the main character was a refugee IRA gunman from the Civil War in Ireland in the teens and 20's and was in Mexico in the late 20's. At any rate he carried a VERY customized Webly revolver that had a laundry list of mods...one of which was the cut trigger guard. I remember scratching my head at that one and the filed down front sight. Just a book though...
Quote:
I do love seeing these old mods.
Always wanted a cut down (about 3") barreled 1917 .45 ACP.
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Me too! Been wondering if anyone at S&W has had the thought to sell their new M1917's with a 3-3.5" barrel instead of the original length?
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12-29-2008, 06:17 PM
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Thanks Craig for posting some of the pictures and bits and pieces of the info that we know. Now, some of you other old gunnies reach into the corners of your memories, call your old friends, and please,please see if you can help further our knowledge. All my and Craig's best for your help. Joe
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12-29-2008, 06:50 PM
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Joe, there're also the modified 1911s owned by Dallas County Sheriff Bill Decker and Ranger Captain M.T. "Lone Wolf" Gonzaullas. The Site M1911 page had the photos a while back.
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12-29-2008, 07:47 PM
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James, your right about the custom 1911's. Many of the modified guns that have tripped my trigger have come out of your stomping grounds. I have seen both "Lone Wolf's" and Sheriff Decker's 45's first hand. A friend in St.Louis displayed them with the Colt Collector's display at Cody a couple of years ago and and I make regular pilgrimages to the Ranger museum in Waco where Lone Wolf's are. They are certainly in the spirit that we are discussing this day. As you well know, many of the Rangers,both then and now,used and carried "tricked" out sidearms. Let' hope more come out of the woodwork with this thread.
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12-29-2008, 07:58 PM
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Anybody have a link to these customized 1911's?
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12-29-2008, 08:18 PM
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Gonzaullas's 1911: http://www.sightm1911.com/1911pix/hi...anger_1911.jpg
Decker's National Matches: http://m1911.org/mod_famous.htm
A more modern one, a Colt formerly owned by Sgt. Matt Cawthon, Company F Waco: http://www.sightm1911.com/1911pix/hi...wthon_1911.jpg
Decker's pair of National Matches look great. Gonzaullas's pistol is typical of a lot of Ranger-owned guns: just because you can engrave it, doesn't mean you should. His 1911 would've been a lot nicer if he'd left it plain, or picked a better engraver to perform the work.
FWIW, the two Ranger 1911s were originally featured on the defuct GunWeb online magazine in an article by Jerry Burke. If anyone saved a copy of it, I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know.
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12-29-2008, 08:30 PM
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James, to the best of my knowledge, Sheriff Decker's pair of pre-war National Match 1911's are considered by many to be the absolute best examples of the breed of engraved pre-war NM's. They are not consecutive serial numbers however. I believe that they were gifted to him.
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12-29-2008, 08:51 PM
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It would have been very interesting to have seen Lone Wolf's extensive collection. Quite simply in addition to being a Texas Ranger, he was quite a collector as well. According to the book about his life he had between 500 and 600 hundred guns in his collection. I also saw a Remington Model 8 rifle that had been modified by Peace Officer Equipment Company in St.Joe,Mo.that was supposedly his. It was at the Rock Island auction several auctions back. It had a Thompson 21 type forward grip attached and his small "brand" on every part of the rifle. It was with the Bill Powell estate that was being auctioned. I could not absolutely establish ownership or I would have bid. kwill1911 of our forum helped at that time and he felt it was original, but while I really wanted it I held back.
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12-29-2008, 09:15 PM
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Law & Order, that is a nifty .44. Me likey.
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12-30-2008, 08:14 AM
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Law&Order, is the frame filler on your revolver welded or permently attached to the frame or is it attached like the old type grip adaptor?
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12-30-2008, 08:38 AM
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HE, where in Florida are you? I have a guy here in So. Fla that is good at such things.
E mail me and I will pass on his info.
Regards ,,,AL
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12-30-2008, 08:52 AM
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Mike they still look great, he does good work. My be alot of money but when you look at them the money fades to the way side. Thanks for the come back.
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12-30-2008, 10:16 AM
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Lawandorder, neat as all get out. Thanks for the quick reply. Best regards, Joe
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12-31-2008, 10:44 AM
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Anyone else familiar with the George Mathews' conversions of the revolvers?
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12-31-2008, 03:25 PM
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Now that's good lookin'.
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12-31-2008, 03:39 PM
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HE_OFFICER,
I say tinker away!!
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12-31-2008, 07:28 PM
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Tipoc, thanks for posting the photos of your revolver. extremely cool. Regards,Joe
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01-01-2009, 12:45 AM
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Thanks and happy new year!
tipoc
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01-01-2009, 07:26 AM
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Kwill1911,
Can you give any details on that first gun? It's beautiful.
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01-01-2009, 03:03 PM
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Kwill1911,
Your photo of your 1917 is my wall paper. Got any other pics of it? Huh, huh, pretty please?
Cat
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01-01-2009, 06:15 PM
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tipoc, that is quite possibly the most beautiful revolver i have ever seen! Thanks to everyone involved in this thread. Where could a novice like myself learn more about these guns, as well as newer versions such as magna-pots etc.?
What a great book that would be, just customized combat revolvers!
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01-01-2009, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by baird:
HE_OFFICER,
I say tinker away!!
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I took her apart this week and administered a through degumming, and de-rusting to the mechanism. I even got everything back together and functioning properly. It’s amazing how some of the springs and pins look like brand new after removing over 80 years worth of **** from them. It’s supposed to have been made in around 1918.
I'm a little hesitant to shoot it though after discovering "4F 45" electric penciled on the side of the cylinder.
How do you determine if a piece like this is safe to shoot?
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01-01-2009, 08:29 PM
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I posted this revolver last week in the pre-45 page. These modifications were done by a Detroit Police Officer in the 1930's. I just obtained this 1917 made in 1918 from the DPD officer's son a couple of weeks ago. Greg
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01-02-2009, 03:30 AM
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Kwill1911,
That is possibly one of the nicest firearms I have ever seen. The story and newspaper clipping only adds to the whole package.
Not that I probably need to say it, but please keep that forever and pass it on to someone who will appreciate it for what it is worth, not how much money it might bring.
Again, very, very cool and thanks.
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01-02-2009, 01:04 PM
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No doubt you're tired of seeing this image.
This is my version of a custom combat revolver.
Forgot to mention - the trigger guard is thinned like the revolver pictured a page or so back. If you look to the right of the shotgun shell prop, you can see it.
I had it made from a 8 3/8" 629-2 with an original 3" LH barrel, Predator package from Mag-Na-Port and a couple of my own specifications including, 11 degree forcing cone for lead, dual ball bearing crane detente and Trijicon night sights.
For those that don't like/believe in Mag-Na-Porting, let me assure you that in a short barrel it works and it works as advertized. I shoot 265g cast over 22g W296 with wood grips that fit me and it's pleasant. In my friends LH stock version I can't handle the same load, it's downright painful.
The preferred SD load for me is 7g W231 in a magnum case under a 240g cast SWC. Fast follow-up.
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01-02-2009, 04:07 PM
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Mag-na-porting works, but remember, it works against you when firing from retention and does your hearing no favors! My large belt gun is mag-na-ported. It is a 5" 629-1 and I shoot a 165 gr. JHP handload that packs 1000 fpe. The full underlug barrel, porting and regular practice are what allow me to handle all that power. Firing from retention involves tilting the gun away from my face to about a sixty degree angle and aiming down for a pelvic shot. That's the way to avoid a face full of burning powder. I also wear eyeglasses.
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01-02-2009, 04:39 PM
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I did not recognize the palm sap for what it was since I had never seen one before.
I do remember the longer saps since the TN Highway Patrol carried those in a custom made pocket on each side of their pants for years. I don't know if they still use those or not, but doubt it.
Any departments out there still using any type of sap? I would be surprised if they were.
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01-02-2009, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Firing from retention involves tilting the gun away from my face to about a sixty degree angle and aiming down for a pelvic shot. That's the way to avoid a face full of burning powder. I also wear eyeglasses.
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I have a Magna-Ported 629. I do not need to go through any contortions to use it. I do not get a face full of powder, nor burns, or anything else troublesome from it. I use the gun as I use others. It does help in rapid follow up shots with heavier loads. In pitch black the muzzle blast is brighter, bright enough to interfere with night vision. In dim light it has no such effect on me.
I'd post a pic or two but this thread is on the older custom guns so it'd be out of place.
tipoc
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01-02-2009, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TN RAT:
I did not recognize the palm sap for what it was since I had never seen one before.
I do remember the longer saps since the TN Highway Patrol carried those in a custom made pocket on each side of their pants for years. I don't know if they still use those or not, but doubt it.
Any departments out there still using any type of sap? I would be surprised if they were.
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Those palm saps were intresting.. In the old days if the smart aleck of the group got a little too mouthy the cop would give them a knockout slap. This looks pretty impressive to the onlookers as most of the time they didn't notice the sap to begin with. There are still a decent amount of depts that allow saps, I have a few custom saps and blackjacks that were made by two brothers in SC who are detectives and carry them on duty.
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01-02-2009, 05:20 PM
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Location: The Rust Belt Buckle/Mich
Posts: 2,382
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Quote:
Originally posted by tipoc:
Quote:
Firing from retention involves tilting the gun away from my face to about a sixty degree angle and aiming down for a pelvic shot. That's the way to avoid a face full of burning powder. I also wear eyeglasses.
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I have a Magna-Ported 629. I do not need to go through any contortions to use it. I do not get a face full of powder, nor burns, or anything else troublesome from it. I use the gun as I use others. It does help in rapid follow up shots with heavier loads. In pitch black the muzzle blast is brighter, bright enough to interfere with night vision. In dim light it has no such effect on me.
I'd post a pic or two but this thread is on the older custom guns so it'd be out of place.
tipoc
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Contortion isn't an applicable term IMO. I'm only talking about shooting from retention. Have you practiced from retention with your ported gun? It's impractical where I shoot. Pictures are welcome. Your info is useful to me, tipoc.
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01-02-2009, 06:29 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paducah, KY
Posts: 261
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Quote:
Originally posted by LadyFed:
This one is my favorite; a Victory model cut down to 3 inches, round butt modification...
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I like that. What exactly does the round butt modification involve? Simply rounding off the edges?
__________________
Caretaker of a small herd.
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01-02-2009, 06:47 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Rockledge, Fla.
Posts: 22
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Recently did some work in trade for my first S&W .357 revolver model 19-5.Can anyone tell me what year it comes from ,or a link to get that kind of info? Any help appreciated! Thank's.
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01-02-2009, 08:22 PM
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SWCA Member
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Temecula, CA
Posts: 1,166
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Quote:
Originally posted by stuccoman:
Recently did some work in trade for my first S&W .357 revolver model 19-5.Can anyone tell me what year it comes from ,or a link to get that kind of info? Any help appreciated! Thank's.
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Stuccoman,
This should really be in a separate post not tacked on to an ongoing discussion. In your new post be sure to include the serial number, either the entire number or all but the last 3 digits (using x's in lieu of the last the digits - abc1234/abc1XXX). You'll most likely get the information you seek.
__________________
Non illegitimae carborundum
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01-02-2009, 09:20 PM
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Member
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Rockledge, Fla.
Posts: 22
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Thank's MKT. New to the use of fourm's.
Quote:
Originally posted by MKT:
Quote:
Originally posted by stuccoman:
Recently did some work in trade for my first S&W .357 revolver model 19-5.Can anyone tell me what year it comes from ,or a link to get that kind of info? Any help appreciated! Thank's.
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Stuccoman,
This should really be in a separate post not tacked on to an ongoing discussion. In your new post be sure to include the serial number, either the entire number or all but the last 3 digits (using x's in lieu of the last the digits - abc1234/abc1XXX). You'll most likely get the information you seek.
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Tags
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4566, 45acp, 686, colt, detective, ejector, engraved, gunsmith, hogue, m13, m28, model 10, model 19, model 1917, model 28, mountain gun, remington, rosewood, round butt, safariland, serrated, tactical, victory |
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