Transition from .38 to .357 - why?

Can y'all (particularly LEO's that may have been there) explain to me why most LE agencies transitioned from the .38 Special to the .357 Mag?

I understand the transition from a 6-shooter wheelgun to a pistol with much more capacity, but why did they need the extra power from the .357...shooting into cars, etc?

Seems that when I was a wee one (mid-1960's), most every city cop carried a .38 revolver, later carrying the .357 which I believe first appeared with the Highway Patrol officers around these parts. Then, after the "gangs" got wild it seemed like everyone then got into the high-cap. 9 mm's.

What I have always heard, 38 special puts a dent in a car door, a 357 magnum puts a hole in it. (you guessed it.) Then they were accused of overkill by using a 357 magnum, so they kept the guns, but loaded them with 38 special +p to avoid the MAGNUM nomenclature. I think most agencies went from 38, to 357, to 38 +p, to 9mm, 45, 40, etc....

Penetration of automobile sheet metal was a major consideration. The .357 Magnum 125 grain jacketed hollow-point proved to be law enforcement's all-time best one shot man-stopper!

Reason enough?

I heard of some cops going back to .38's because of recoil and report. A highway patrolman shooting a Super Vel out in the open, is different than a policeman shooting in a tight alley, or tenement building. The full load mag can and did some permanent hearing damage in enclosed spaces.

Some cops kept the Mags, but used .38 spec. instead. Or so i've heard from a retired FHP.

Edit-He also told me they used mixed loads of .38 and .357.

Captain38 said:

Penetration of automobile sheet metal was a major consideration. ...

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Very early automobiles were made using a surprising amount of WOOD in their bodies and even frames. As sheet metal bodies of fairly heavy guage steel came into use, the argument for better penetration certainly gained some legitimacy. I guess it was sort of akin to the development the .45 Colt with claims that it could penetrate a horse and kill the man taking cover behind it.

IIRC, there were even claims that the .357 Mag would not only penetrate the auto's body, but the engine block as well! I do believe some folks actually proved this is possible, depending on exactly how well the engine block is hit.

First of all, every agency did it differently back in the day, just as they do now. The first agency I worked for in the 70's made us buy our own guns and ammo, and all of us carried a K frame magnum of some stripe..one guy I worked with carried a Colt Diamondback, but the rest of us carried 19-66. The N frames weren't popular cause of the weight, but Troopers carried them, along with 6 "armor piercing" bullets on their gunbelt. Our K's were loaded with magnum rounds of varying weights, I carried the 158's...
I went to work for an agency that issued nickel plated Victory models, sans lanyard ring, and carried issued ammo which was the 158grn+p FBI load..and two dump pounches with reloads on Bianchi speed strips. (I kept speedloaders in my briefcase, they were verbotten on the uniform.
The transition to self loaders around here really didn't take off until the 40 S&W became available......

The 357 would bust a engine block on a moving car to stop them, and the 357 was a one shot kill. Now they can't stop someone with 18 from thier tupperware, but they hit everything around them. Most of todays LE can't hit the side of a barn with thier tupperware, they stand on the street rubbing thier butt trying to look mean. This isn't a put down, its is what we have made them into. Thirdy years ago if they (the people) wounldn't show respect for you, you just kicked thier butt for them, if they pulled a gun you shot them with one or two rounds. Never had to shoot any but I have made a few look at a shotgun stuff in thier mouth. I alway had my 686 in the car and carried the shotgun with me. You rack a shot gun and they would stop in thier tracks. The 357 was the best round ever used by the LE, and the LE of the 60,70 and the 80 where men that done the job, not to look good like people want them today. Don't get me wrong about the LE today, I love it everytime I see one and most of the time thank them and shake thier hand. WE THE PEOPLE have made thier job most show and no go. They need to go back to the 357, 12 rounds done a better job than 32 does today.

I started as a LEO in 1977; at the first department, we had to buy our own guns and carry the department issue ammo. Guns had to be Colt, S&W, or Browning, in 9mm, .38 Special or .357 Magnum. All issue ammo was Remington; 115 grain SJHP for 9mm, 125 grain SJHP in .38 Special. Most of the guys carried a K-frame revolver, either a 19/66, two guys carried Colts, and the 9mm carriers were exclusively S&W Model 59s.
At the next department, we were issued S&W Model 15s and carry ammo was WW 158 grain LSWCHP+P (Chicago load). After probation, you could carry any 6 shot revolver you wanted, after approval by Range Officer, as long as it would chamber the issue round and had a 4 inch barrel. Investigators could carry 2 inch J frames. The majority of the department stayed with K-frames, either the issue M15 or a 19/66, a couple of us, me included, carried Pythons, and one guy carried a Dan Wesson.
Both of these departments were in suburban Chicago (Lake County), and to the best of my recollection, no department carried magnum ammunition. I can't remember anyone I worked with, and there were plenty of us young "gun nuts" who worked together, feeling undergunned with the Chicago load. Many of us wanted to carry autoloaders, like the Illinois State Police (Model 39s), and would have been perfectly satisfied with the Model 59 (I carried one as an off-duty gun from my first department) and the ISP load (WW 115 grain +P+), but the Range Officer was an old school NRA revolver champion, and it wasn't until he retired and a new chief came in that the search for a new gun started, and resulted in adoption of the Sig 220 in .45ACP, after I had left.
I don't think it was political correctness or public relations that kept us from carrying magnum ammo. It was simply that the Chicago load worked; it was effective, it was easy to control, and it could be chambered in just about any type of handgun that could be used for police work. Why try to fix something that wasn't broke?

In the early 1970's, my department used the .38 Special 158gr +P LSWCHP, however when Remington introduced the 125gr SJHP magnum load, word spread pretty quickly that this was the manstopper. Our range master at the time quickly allowed it as he wanted the officers to carry the best round available.
He was a pretty progressive guy, making our department one of the first in the Denver metro area to approve autoloaders, and when Speer introduced the +P version of the Gold Dot for our 9mm's, he quickly adopted it for duty issue. I guess we've always had a philosophy based on stopping power and accuracy rather than any politcal agendas.

When I started in 1977, the agency issued tapered barrel Model 10's; then Model 65's; then 686's; now Glock 22's.

We practiced with plenty of .38 Special in the Mag's, but I know of nobody who carried them on a daily basis. Toward the end of the revolver days, we started doing a little practice with Magnum loads, which I thought was long overdue but cost of the ammunition was (and is) always a consideration, rightly or not.

The 686 was the cream of the crop, IMO; I purchased mine when we transitioned to the Glock. I never felt under equipped when carrying it and two Comp II speedloaders. The "powers that be" saw what they felt like was the writing on the wall and wanted the Glocks to go along with everybody else down here that was buying them (which seemed like EVERYBODY).

Bullseye Smith said:

The 357 would bust a engine block on a moving car to stop them, and the 357 was a one shot kill. Now they can't stop someone with 18 from thier tupperware, but they hit everything around them. Most of todays LE can't hit the side of a barn with thier tupperware, they stand on the street rubbing thier butt trying to look mean. This isn't a put down, its is what we have made them into. Thirdy years ago if they (the people) wounldn't show respect for you, you just kicked thier butt for them, if they pulled a gun you shot them with one or two rounds. Never had to shoot any but I have made a few look at a shotgun stuff in thier mouth. I alway had my 686 in the car and carried the shotgun with me. You rack a shot gun and they would stop in thier tracks. The 357 was the best round ever used by the LE, and the LE of the 60,70 and the 80 where men that done the job, not to look good like people want them today. Don't get me wrong about the LE today, I love it everytime I see one and most of the time thank them and shake thier hand. WE THE PEOPLE have made thier job most show and no go. They need to go back to the 357, 12 rounds done a better job than 32 does today.

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Don't hold back John - tell us what you really think

In my experience, most local police agencies used 38 Spl until the Miami FBI shooting in 1986. That was one of the few high-profile police-involved shootings where magazine capacity was an advantage over the revolver (Armament, as I recall, included snubbies, S&W m. 59's and shotguns, with the baddies having AR-15's.) As a result of this incident, many agencies went to 9's. A later study of the shooting decided that the agents needed rounds with more penetration, which led to the adoption of 147 grain 9's and 40's. The 357 was used mostly by State Police who wanted the round"that would penetrate an engine block."

I was offered a dept issue M10... I think it was a left over Victory Model... in 1978. I opted to carry my personal 4" M19, a M66 as soon as I could get one. I qualified at the same time with M39-2 which was my BU. Dept would not approve 1911 cocked & locked. I got one of the first M645's approved (1989) because the Dept armorer wanted one.
Russ

Bullseye Smith said:

The 357 would bust a engine block on a moving car to stop them, and the 357 was a one shot kill. Now they can't stop someone with 18 from thier tupperware, but they hit everything around them. Most of todays LE can't hit the side of a barn with thier tupperware, they stand on the street rubbing thier butt trying to look mean. This isn't a put down, its is what we have made them into. Thirdy years ago if they (the people) wounldn't show respect for you, you just kicked thier butt for them, if they pulled a gun you shot them with one or two rounds. Never had to shoot any but I have made a few look at a shotgun stuff in thier mouth. I alway had my 686 in the car and carried the shotgun with me. You rack a shot gun and they would stop in thier tracks. The 357 was the best round ever used by the LE, and the LE of the 60,70 and the 80 where men that done the job, not to look good like people want them today. Don't get me wrong about the LE today, I love it everytime I see one and most of the time thank them and shake thier hand. WE THE PEOPLE have made thier job most show and no go. They need to go back to the 357, 12 rounds done a better job than 32 does today.

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Ditto John!

Without a doubt the 357 is the best all time and also the best at bringing down a felon the first time. Politics, lawmakers and even the current LE agencies have caved in. The 357 did what the 38 special could not do. Penetrate metal, windshields and almost anything in the way. Nowadays LE agencies do get their felon but it takes sometimes ten rounds to bring the person down. Its called the spray and pray tactic.
This is my view from some thirty years from the time revolvers were the standard until now with the tupperware Glocks.

They say when you get old you get set in your ways , but what the guys above me has stated that I'm not so wrong in my feelings. I done it for about 3 years and had to give it up when I had to have a hip replaced - no more running for me. I learn alot and the dad of a best friend was like my second Dad was a WV State Trooper who carried a 686 from the day they came out. He could cut the hair off a mouse tail at fifthy yard with a 357. He was a high Master in PPC and told the new troops that they were sissy's since they needed a auto to hit something . I just sit back and worry that a LE may get killed for a safety being on or some of the other stupid things that can happen to a auto. A 357 revolver cleaned and checked each week won't let you down and that is the fact jack.

We were issued old skinny barrel model 10, I think mine was a pre model 10, and 200 grain round nose ammo. i would hardly dent a car body and would not penetrate a windshield, just bounce off. Carry .357 or some modern Super Vel ammo would get your butt chewed (don't ask how I know). We had no firearms training back then, and a lot of the officers never shot their guns.

I split the forcing cone on a skinny barrel .38 with 110 grain Super Vel. New chief in 1975 we went to a 6" Model 28 with Speer Lawman 158 grain .357 loads. Boy, were they stout! We had gun malfunctions every range day. I think I remember that those were about 1500 fps, and were pretty brutal on most of the officers who only shot when they were forced to. By then, we had gone to qualification with duty ammo, not wadcutters, and when the brass could not qualify, ammo was down powered until they could. I had move on by then, though.

INJUNTOM said:

Don't hold back John - tell us what you really think

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Never been an LEO, but have always questioned why the military went to the 9mm. When I go to the range with my old S&W revolvers, I am called old school and a cowboy by the numerous tupperware young guys who fly helicopters. I pull out my 28 no dash and ask them what heritage or history does their Glock have, most of the time they just stare blankly with their 32 round mags. I don't even go there with the pre-29 or the 1917 that was on the Western Front. They don't get it.

My agency authorized .357 Magnums in the seventies based on the increased stopping power. This was long before I got hired, but I heard the stories from the “old-timers.” Many departments went from the 158 LRN to the 200 grain “Super Police,” to hollowpoints, and then finally to the .357. We carried the 125 loads, but often practiced with .38 wadcutters. I carried a 13 and a 686 for my first two years. We were one of the last departments in my area to switch to 9MM.

I believe the actual answer to your question is just pure progression. Cops are always seeking to upgrade their equipment, whether it is their boots, uniforms, flashlights, or firearms. Going from the .38 to the .357 Mag was just part of this progression. Look at the other huge changes- who would have ever thought 20 years ago that patrol rifles would be everyday carry firearms in most cruisers. Now in days if you’re not carrying an m-4 type carbine with optics, back up sights, and a forend full of accessories, along with the latest in plastic pistols, a Taser, and a LED flashlight, you belong in the police museum.

Best Regards

I became a police officer in the early 1970's,in the Kansas City area. At that time officers were carrying everything from .38 special up to .44 magnums. As political times changed we became restricted to then dept. issued model 65 .357 magnums [do to a good price on the guns]. Issued ammo to be carried was 125 grain remington jhp + p. The following reasons were given. We could no longer shoot a fleeing felon in a moving vehicle except as a last resort. Most officer involved shootings did not involve a vehicle. The round was safer to use in a urban enviroment for obvious reasons,and less intimideting to shoot with the ability for faster follow up shoots,and less muzzle flash. While the stopping power of the.357 magnum is much better. The change was belived the best overall compromise at the time. You have to take in account the image,and liability of a police dept.,and try to provide the officer's with a round to do the job.
Ed

Started in LE in '68 in Detroit. Rules allowed any revolver as long as it was a Colt or S&W. The revolver also had to be a .38 special or larger. There were PO's who carried .38's, .357, .41, .44 mag and even one guy who carried a .45 Long Colt. At some point in the '70's they eventually authorized S&W Model 39 with full jacketed ammo and carried with the safety on. By '79 those same rules were in effect.