While I prefer S&W revolvers for everything now that I am retired. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Glock handguns. My dept. never had any negative incidents with this weapon. The Glock armorer's course is also quite impressive. Glock's proprietary treatment of the steels used in the weapon renders them way more corrosion resistant than any stainless steel weapon. Glocks may be the most durable and reliable handguns made. The earlier post is right, however, once Glock made their R&D and initial tooling start-up costs back, they were able to "low-ball" their way into dept. after dept. with outrageous trade-in deals. I personally prefer the Beretta 96 as a semi-auto for my private use only because I am more accurate with it. As far as Taurus goes, I have never heard of any dept. that has used or approved for use this make of handgun.

Wow. My exact reasons for choosing the Sig 229R with the DAK trigger, plus the fact that I like a Safariland SSIII holster, and an over-the-top thumbreak is another potential danger with the Glock.

To bring this back to the main focus of the topic, the Sig DAK trigger is like a well tuned S&W trigger, plus I get 12 round capacity and faster reloads.

Cause officers forget they have their finger on the trigger and try to reholster and...bang. Training issue all the way imo but it does seem to happen rather frequently (relatively speaking) with Herr Gaston's "Perfection" than with other makes. The "safety trigger" is anything but imo. And I carry a G19 frequently as an aside.

Since you asked, that's my .02.

Think you're going to be carrying a 627 now aren't you Tim ?

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Retired FBI Agent

Uh...YEAH!

Just as soon as I put some boomers thru it to confirm it goes bang, that gun is AWESOME Brother. Not doubting or anything, just "the routine" with any "new to me" blaster. If all goes well, there just might be a range report on the forum in about a week or so .

Back to the regularly scheduled thread...already in progress.

Thank you for the explanation.

I have many autopistols, including a Glock 17, but I never learned to love the bottomfeeders......as hard as I tried.

You'll never catch me selling any of my S&W or Ruger wheelguns to fund an autochucker purchase.

My Glock 17 is still sitting in it's dust covered Tupperware box, I can't remember the last time I fired it, probably two years ago or more. I fired my Model 10-10 and 617-7 today.

Yeah... the design isn't exactly "ideal" for officers, as they often have to reholster during very stressful situations. This is why the training and strict adherence to trained procedures is absolutely critical.

For a civilian, it's a different matter, of course, as they are more likely to have the luxury of reholstering well after stress levels have subsided. And, of course, adherence to safe holstering procedures is equally critical for civies. Good reasons why Glock is probably not the best semi-auto choice for beginners.

I agree the trigger is far from a "safe trigger". That said, Glocks (typically G19 Gen 3 or G23 Gen 4) are my #1 carry pistol choice.

I have never a police officer, but I highily respect them for the job they under take every day!
That said you all know me by now and my background, as a civie I feel perfectly well armed with a .357 Magnum with a brace of speedloaders and one speed strip, backed up by a snub .38.
However if I were to put on the badge I would want nothing less than my old SIG 226 w/3 15 round mags and the same .38 for backup! My reasoning is that todays criminal element is training for multiple encounters and using team tactics. I've read where they actually had members join the military just to learn shoot-n-move as well as CQB, wether it's true or not I don't know.
On the Glock thing: Your welcome to 'em! I've spent way too much time learning the SIG and now the 5946 as well as my preferred revolvers be they S&W, Ruger, or Colt. The "plastic fantastic" isn't for me! Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

Just get a "NY trigger" for the Glock, it's much heavier than the stock trigger group. The NYPD mandated all of the Glock 19's used on duty or off duty must have the NY trigger installed. I think it's a 12 lb. trigger, stock is maybe 8 lb.?

Glock trigger springs (group, assembly) just drop right in, it's easy. Years ago I took the Glock armorers course when I was an armed guard, but I forgot most of it.....

I noticed that some of you gentlemen served in Vietnam. I surely do THANK YOU FOR THAT. I DON'T KNOW IF I WAS LUCKY OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT, BUT I WAS NEVER CALLED TO GO. Like I said earlier, I have been in Law Enforcement for 42 years. I wanted to ask a question of a VETERAN. I had read one time that when the AR 15 was first introduced and used in Vietnam and it was FULLY AUTOMATIC the "AVERAGE AMOUNT OF ROUNDS FIRED FOR 1 KILL WAS SOMETHING LIKE 17,000 ROUNDS". THEN AGAIN, I HEARD IT WAS EVEN HIGHER THAN THAT AND THAT'S WHY THEY WENT TO THE 3 ROUND BURSTS INSTEAD OF FULLY AUTO. I GUESS THAT IS WHERE THE "SPRAY & PRAY" SAYING CAME FROM. i GOT THAT FROM ONE OF MY BUDDIES ON THE PD THAT SERVED OVER THERE AND WAS SHOT 2 TIMES. GOD REST HIS SOUL, WE JUST LOST HIM A FEW YEARS AGO RIGHT AFTER HE RETIRED UNDER DISABILITY. ONLY A THOUGHT. AGAIN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE, ESPECIALLY IN VIETNAM..........................CookE

Basic training with the semi-auto is for the trigger finger to be straight out, parallel with the slide at all times, except when actually firing. At least that's how we trained. Never an accident yet with our dept. Any officer who had his finger on the trigger when trying to reholster would be re-assigned to dispatch or somewhere.

Hi, Az. revolver:
Same here. We call it "The Universal Cover Mode". Negative A/Ds when this practice is used. (even when re-holstering).
Jimmy

Yup, same here.

Lets see, inadequate firearms training = AD's/ND's. The fix? Heavy trigger springs, which when coupled with the inadequate training means officers can't hit the broad side of a barn...

Mandating idiot springs in your officer's pistols is an extremely poor substitute for properly training them to start with.

As has probably already been overstated, IMO the weapon you choose to carry matters little when compared with shot placement and your ability to acquire your target quickly.
One .22 to the proper soft tissue will beat 12 45's that don't hit.
I practice one hand point shooting after my run in order to simulate an elevated pulse. If you can hit what you aim at with one hand while under stress, the weapon matters little.
Perfect Practice makes Perfect.

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Improvise, Adapt and Overcome

Times have changed and so have the perps. Over the years, the number of shootings involving multiple perps has increased.
The number of rounds fired in the "average police shooting" has increased. One would be severely "under gunned" with a six or even eight shot revolver in 357 Magnum.
And that doesn't even take into consideration the 357 round itself which is known for over penetration, severe muzzle blast, severe muzzle flash and the heaviest bullet only weighing 158 gr or less.

The 357 mag is out dated for law enforcement. If it wasn't, it would still be in use.

"Outdated" and "Ineffective" are two different things.

For a civilian to use for defending the ranch or keeping under a truck seat, no one would call something like an '03 Springfield ineffective, but for military or police use it is far outdated. I feel well armed with a Ruger GP100 and a Rem 870 as my "house guns" but these are seen as outdated by many people.

I guess my point is, LEO's go out looking for the bad guys, so we want them to have as much firepower on their hip and in the patrol car as possible. A Glock and an AR-15 even the odds more then a Model 10 and a 12 gauge pump. A .357 is a manstopper, no doubt, but in today's world we have police officers from all walks of life.....women, men, different shapes and sizes. Not all of them can handle a .357. The days when most cops were men and were all mostly ex-military guys used to handling weapons, are coming to an end. At a job I had in the past as an armed guard, there were women who couldn't handle a Glock 22. A .357 probably would have been dangerous in their hands. Some of these women went on to police jobs.

However, as a civilian CCW holder, I carry a gun in case the bad guys come looking for me. As a purely defensive gun I trust my revolvers every day. I am not saying my Model 10 is ineffective, but I like to keep it simple and I know I've got 6 shots for sure. Of course I'm not kicking in doors and arresting people either. The odds of me having to use my gun are much, much lower than a police officer.

Not a cop, but would defiantly rather a .44 here in Iraq over my Beretta 92FS. Considering a hand gun is for up close and personal the Beretta doesn't have the stopping power I want. That also comes from the fact that we are using full metal jacket instead of hollow points. Of course I think the best fit for combat is still the 1911. Still packs a fair punch in FMJ and reloads quick.

The answer is "NO" for the most of them, they what tupper ware that holds a box of ammo and hope they can hit the side of a barn with it. It takes a Marksman to shot a revolver where most LE fail the test at.

While a revolver is no longer optimal, I wouldn't say one armed with a .357 is severely under gunned, especially if its an 8 shooter. Ballistically, the .357 magnum is as good or better fight stopper as any service round out there. Over penetration, IMO, is hardly a concern when one looks at the number of rounds that completely miss their target. The severity of the muzzle blast and flash is highly dependant of the round in question.

JMO, its not the cartridge thats out dated, but the delivery platform.

For Police use, revolvers are far from optimal these days. Glock made sure of that, with their famous simplicity of use. Put a mag in it, rack the slide, holster it, it's ready to go. Draw it, point in the general direction of the bad guy, pull the trigger until the slide locks back.......is the usual method of use for a Glock. Plus Glock offers 'em cheaper, is able to undercut the competition although the M&P is gaining ground.

I have seen people who have never fired a handgun in their lives, within 3 days of training, were able to at least qualify at the basic level with a Glock. They were also able to field strip and clean it. The security company I worked at added heavier trigger springs to the Glocks we used, to reduce the risk of ND's. So, you have the "draw, point and squeeze" simplicity of a revolver, without all those "lever and switch thingys" found on other autoloading pistols to confuse people........they require no lube, and minimal maintenance, because security guard guns spend 99.9% of the time in a rack or in a holster, not getting cleaned.

Even the mags are plastic, so ham handed people can't dent 'em.I have seen people try to load the rounds in the mags backwards, and then wonder why the "slidy thingy won't close".......yes, I worked with some real brain surgeons at my security job, and even they can't break a Glock........ I have no love for Glock, but they are dummy proof. The biggest thing is training people with IQ's barely more than their waist size to keep their fingers off the trigger when they reholster them And also to keep their hands away from the "moving thingy" on top of the gun when they shoot it......yes, I saw a guy try to "cock the hammer" on a Glock and got bashed in the thumb with the slide during a qual. Also saw a fat guy who'd been there 20 years get bit in the fat roll shooting the Glock from the "pistol retention" position......one girl had a jam and proceeded to look down the barrel of a loaded Glock to see what was wrong with it...another girl couldn't handle the recoil of the .40 and dropped the pistol after 3 rounds at the target, nothing makes your morning like seeing a piece of tactical Tupperware bouncing along the ground in front of the firing line...good thing for the drop safety....I can't make this stuff up.......

Can you provide a verifiable stat for that?

Reason I'm asking is that the last data I saw, LEO shootings were averaging 6 rounds per fight, up from 1980's average of 3.2 rounds per fight. Today's average, and I'll admit in this post I'm going from memory, also includes a LOT of misses.

So...where is your data from?

Well, trigger reach is different and can be easier to adjust on revolvers. This can often be an accuracy issue, but since the option is not allowed I guess it doesn't matter. FWIW, we issue 226 DAKs, but every Ofc who carries a personally owned Sig has chosen a TDA model, and does noticeably better. I'm simply not a fan of forcing every Officer to carry the same handgun - but I've also noticed the world doesn't things my way either. Can't figure out why...

And yeah, everyone here shot noticably better when Glocks were issued... (rocking the boat again) Life is not meant to be boring.

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July 4, 1776 not Jan 30, 1909

In 1980, I started police work with a 4" Model 19 and bought a Safety Speed Clamshell holster...remember them? LAPD used them at the time. A VERY fast holster, and secure for the weapon retention techniques that were just being taught then.

We transitioned to Sig P220's in '86, then Glock 22's around 1994. When I returned to Patrol for my last 3 1/2 years in '07, I dug out my old Model 19 and clamshell. After practicing for awhile, I decided to carry this rig on duty, based mainly on the speed and the weapon retention. Not too many bad guys left alive who know where the release button is!

Anyway, the rig is so much faster than the usual duty holsters...I could usually draw and fire 2-3 shots before others fired their first shot (and I'm 52 years old)...a significant advantage. Accurate, too. The younger cops, most of whom have NEVER shot a revolver thought I was nuts carrying a six shooter, but I felt good with it, and I did carry a back-up.

Yeah, a 15 shooter is probably better, especially reloading, and for "combat," but if it was a call where shots fired may be likely, I'd take the 870 or AR anyway. Never felt undergunned with a Smith.

I love my autos, I too compete with one, we all know alot can happen with one, anything from a stove pipe to going full auto. I have a Sig that is going back because it won't eat, my race gun has never had a hick-up, not yet, but it could, If my life was on the line, I would want my .357, I wouldn't want any 9mm or any Glock. We have a lot of LEOs coming to the club to be trained by our instructors, they all say the same thing, they thought they knew how to shoot until the ran a course, it does get the blood pumping and I think it is the closest you can get to real life. If you don't practice, you will die. No matter how many autos you are carring. We had a shoot out here in town, the officer emptied three mags, and never even hit the car.
By the way, I like this forum, and I'm glad I found it.

Just an observance, ever notice that the bug is almost always a six gun?

Indeed! It still amazes me that the little J frame Smith or D frame Colt is the prefered BUG too this day. Personally I think it has a lot to do with the reliabilty factor and that if you need your backup it's gonna be close and dirty.
Also being in close there's a very real chance of making contact shots, and revolvers excell at this. They don't suffer from going out of battery when shoved against an attacker and NOT firing like autos do! Some say the ubiquitious 2in. snub is out of date what with all the micro .380s and baby 9mm out there, I say phooey on that! These little 5 and 6 shooters are just as viable today as they were back in the 50s. And from what I've read are the popular choice among CCW carriers.
Welcome to the forum Tunachaser, glad to have ya aboard! Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

Thanks Dale. I always regretted selling my first two smiths. I just bought a 19-4 2" round but that will go to one of my kids. I think it is an older gun, but it looks brand new. Just need to find a pair of grips now.

I'm not a LEO, but an ordinary citizen. I believe the .357 to be an excellent weapon, when combined with the right bullet and more importantly, well aimed shots. Sometimes I wish the loal police would ditch all these fancy semis for sixguns. An officer must LEARN to shoot well with a revolver, and that would have to nearly eliminate so much of these "spray and pray" activities. Just my opinion, tho'.

No offense or anything, but I find threads like this funny. "These dang kids today with their fancy high-tech bows and arrows! We oughta go back to the spear! That was a *real* weapon, simple and reliable! It required real skill, not this 'spray and pray' nonsense!"



Semper Fi,

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

Nobody mentioned a springfield armory XD45 acp? I never had a ftf of any sort with mine. How do the fellas feel about the XD vs. the glock?

I gotta tell ya. I never felt under gunned carrying my 627-5. You pull that hog-leg out and see the resulting "O"'s on the faces of would be thugs. There is a certain aura exhibited by an N-frame revolver. That being said, nothing says "cease and desist" like the racking of a remington 870! Train wth what you carry, no matter what it is, and you'll better your odds.

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Dyin ain't much of a livin

.357's? There are cops in New York City still carrying S&W and Ruger .38's! All I know is what I read about it, that new NYPD officers cannot opt to buy and carry the S&W or Ruger DAO .38 revolver, but veteran officers can continue to carry them if they choose. I don't know if the Model 60 or .38 Ruger SP101 is still an approved off duty gun.

Would love to hear from some of the current NYPD guys to see if they or any guys they know still carry a .38.

The last time I was in NYC, maybe 10 years ago, probably more, I saw an NYPD police officer with some kind of wheelgun......I couldn't tell what it was and I didn't want to be walking around staring at a cop's gun, but I saw the wood grip of either a S&W or a Colt, might have been a Ruger Service Six.

Not a LEO. Don't shoot a .357 though I have in the past. Do have a custom Vaquero .45 long colt & .45 ACP Taurus PT145. The Vaquero is about twice as heavy as the Taurus. Shooting 230 grain +P outta both of them, the difference is night and day. The Taurus just seems to soak up the recoil & its way easier to bring subsequent rounds on target. My previous experience with .45 ACP was with an M1911A1 in the Corps in 1960. Scared me so bad I damn near dropped it. Bottom feeders have come a long, long way.

I know this a little off the subject but thought it was relevant. If I'm outta line, I apologize. God, I just love this forum.

Respects,
Bob