Hi,
I posted last week I purchased a new 686+ with the lock. I took it to the range today to see how it would do. The first couple of cylinders went thru it fine. Then I could not get the cylinder to close. I was guessing it had something to do with the lock. I didn't want to force it shut and break something. I took the lock key and turned to the unlock position and I could close the cylinder. It got to the point I would fire a couple of rounds and I could not pull the trigger or hammer back. I was firing some single action and some double action. I had the range officer look at it thinking I was doing something wrong with the lock. He dry fired it a few times and same thing. He said the timing was off. I dunno. I never had a problem with a revolver before. This is my forth S&W revolver but first with the lock. All were new when I bought them. I wonder if my daughter would give me the 686 w/6in barrel back I gave her.
It was perfect out of the box. I am sending it back to S&W and hope they repair it right the first time. I probably should have listened to the group and not bought one with a look. Live and learn.......

nod

Did you check the extractor rod for tightness?

__________________
NRA - All Day

The most common causes for cylinder won't close would be:

1) Ejector rod is loose and backing out.

2) hard carbon dirt under the head of the extractor star.

DO NOT force it to close, you will bend the crane.

The rod is reverse threads and you must put fired brass in the tubes before you twist on the end of it.

First thing I thought of was the ejector rod is loose. Did you check that?

No I didn't check the ejector rod. Would that also be with problem with the trigger and hammer not coming back. I could get the cylinder to close after messing with the key. The real problem was the revolver "locking" up. I didn't force anything except the hammer. One time I got it back but the other times it wasn't coming back. The fix was empty the cylinder, mess with the key, reload, and shoot a few rounds. Then it locked up again. I don't know much (anything) about working on revolvers. The only revolvers i have (had) is a 442 (no lock), 66 (no lock) and a 686 (no lock).

Thanx for the replies, nod

The IL only locks the hammer. It doesn't interfere with opening and closing the cylinder.

I suggest you unlock the revolver and leave the key at home. You will never need it again.

Bob

I checked the ejector (extractor) rod and to the untrained eye it seems fine to me. I am glad I had the range guy check so I am not nuts. I am disappointed as my other Smiths have been flawless.

nod

Problems with the lock on the 686 are very rare, so rare that I've only seen one report of a 686 locking up and in that case the gun was dropped on concrete. Not saying that it can't happen, just that it's pretty well unheard of. If it is the lock, my hunch would be that someone at the factory forgot to install the spring for the detent. If that is the case, you can probably get the lock flag to raise up by just shaking the gun. In that case a trip back to the factory is certainly in order.

The lock also won't interfere with opening or closing the cylinder and some issues that interfere with closing the cylinder will also cause the trigger and hammer to "tie up". Following are what I've found will cause the cylinder to bind with the most frequent causes listed highest.

1) Dirty ammo and fouling in chamber that won't permit a round to be seated easily. This is a common experience with my 22 caliber 617 when shooting Winchester Xpert HV from Walmart. It's cheap and very accurate in my 617 but the amount of fouling it produces requires running a dry brush through each chamber every 50 rounds. I've also had the same issue when using Winchester White box in my 1988 vintage model 67. BTW, my model 67 was my first revolver and on it's first outing at the range using WWB the cylinder bind got so bad that I couldn't pull the trigger, I had to use the hammer in order to fire it empty. Once the cylinder has fired cases in each chamber it opened and closed easily, however on the next reload I could not close the cylinder. A close look showed the problem, every cartridge was sitting high and it took a VERY firm push to get the rounds seated. I've now started using Federal ammo for range use, it's much much cleaner although the Federal 22LR is not quite as accurate as the cheap Winchester in my 617.

2) Powder debris under the extractor star. What this does is prevent every round from fully seating in the cylinder and the case heads will drag on the recoil shield. It's always a good idea to keep a toothbrush in your range bag to give this area a scrub if you notice any binding of the cylinder.

3) A loose extractor will cause problems with opening the cylinder and it can cause the cylinder to bind if it gets really loose. Since you didn't report problems opening the cylinder I think that this is unlikely as a cause for your problem. Normally, when it first starts backing out the immediate effect is difficulty opening the cylinder or not being able to open the cylinder at all.

4) High primers. This is one that can be a real SAFETY issue. If the primers are sitting high enough just slamming the cylinder closed can cause a primer to ignite and if this happens you'll blow up both the gun and your hand. Anytime your at the range, it's an excellent idea to run your thumb over every round loaded in the cylinder every time you load it so you can feel a primer that is sitting high. In addition, any ammo used for defense should have each and every round visually inspected before committing to using that round for Defense. While these types of issues are very rare with commercial ammo, with the many millions of rounds produced all it takes is a one on one million mistake to cause you and your gun a great deal of harm.

5) A bullet that has "jumped crimp". What happens in this case is that the nose of the bullet may protrude from the front of the cylinder enough that it binds on the barrel. With commercial ammo this is almost unheard of in a revolver as heavy as a 686, however with reloads where the crimp was forgotten it can happen. It one reason why I NEVER purchase reloads from either a range or gun show.

scooter123:

That's excellent advice and may I say thanks to you for posting it. Naively, I don't check the primers because I use 'box ammo' and figure it is "all good". Not again! Thanks again.

nod005:

Call S&W and let them assist. Have you tried snap-caps? At least these would allow you to check whether snugging up the rod and cleaning the cylinder help with the problem.

Chris

__________________
/at least she finds me handy.

Ejector rod came loose on my wife's 686 after about 400 rounds. Sounds like that's your problem too.

Thanx for the replies. I read the post by scooter123. Very good post. I don't think the reasons listed are the problem. That being said, something is tieing up the up the revolver. I have only shoot a half of box of ammo thru it. It is going back to S&W.

nod

Well S&W has it now. They sent me the shipping label. It was 2nd day delivery not over night.

nod

A few days ago I received a letter from S&W. It was postmarked 24 November and stated they had received the revolver and their turn around time was two to three weeks. It showed up today (good service). I won't repeat the problems I complained about as they are in my original post. Now I could really use your help with the repair sheet. A little history on me. I was brought up with guns (from New England area). Had firearms since I was 15 years old. Have (and had) some nice firearms. I was in the Army over 20 years. All that and I have never really repaired any firearms. I am going to type out the repair sheet and perhaps someone will enlighten me with what it means.

Customer Complaint: End-Shake Cyl (no, I didn't complain about that. After you all replied I went and checked the cylinder and it seemed fine to me. I checked the extractor rod and star. Seemed tight and clean under the star. I have a model 66 and had a 686 with no locks. Didn't seem any different than what I am used to.)

Customer Complaint: Open & Close Cyl (correct)

Customer Complaint: Force Cone (Ok, I don't even know what the forcing cone is so I couldn't complain about that.)

Repaired: Repair Yoke ( Again, don't really now what the yoke is and how it related to my issues.)

Repaired: Replaced Ext Rod (I couldn't see any problems with the extractor rod.)

Repaired: Replace Center Pin (and the center pin is???)

Repaired: Replace Locking Bolt (again the locking bolt is??? and how does that relate to the revolver "tieing up")

Repaired: Cut Forcing Cone (Since I really don't know what the forcing cone is I can't see how it related to my problems.)

I read the repair sheet and then had my wife read it. Our thoughts were the same, all this repair on a new S&W.

Anyone?

Thanx, nod

Cut forcing cone. The forcing cone is the funnel shaped entry into the barrel that guides the bullet into the rifling in the barrel. If your forcing cone needs to be recut, that's a real FAIL on the part of S&W and may be the cause of your issues. If the forcing cone isn't properly cut, you'll shave lead or jacketing from the bullets as you fire the gun. Once these shavings build up enough on the rear surface of the barrel, it will cause the cylinder to bind, which means it will be difficult to open, close, or rotate. That will tie up the lockwork.

The center pin is a small rod in the center of the ejector rod that pushes against the front lock when you push the cylinder release. I sort of doubt if this is your problem, it normally causes difficulty or a "notchy" feel when opening the cylinder, however if it's really binding in the ejector rod it could cause some difficulty in closing the cylinder. IMO they are probably servicing the ejector rod assembly as a "kitchen sink" approach, in other words they are doing this simply because it's a 5 minute task and it may resolve your problem.

The Yoke is the casting that holds the cylinder when you swing it open, many also call this the crane however in factory terms it's a Yoke at S&W and a Crane at Colt. Since this part is closely fitted to the recess in the frame, any improper fitup can cause problems with cylinder alignment, opening and closing the cylinder, and issues with timing and accuracy. Most likely thye'll check to see that it's fitted properly and check it to make sure it hasn't been bent, which can happen if you force the cylinder open or closed. Most likely this will simply be a careful check of fitup and straightness.

The locking bolt is the part that the cylinder release tab is attached to. If the end has been peened short for some reason, or if it's not fitted properly, it can cause your issues. I believe that this is an MIM part on the current guns and as consistent as the process is in manufacturing small parts like this, it'll be a real shock if it's not to spec. However, checking this part is a no brainer to insure it's not the problem. BTW, while they are in there I have no doubt they'll also take a look at your lock and perhaps just replace it.

Basically, what they are doing is going over every reasonable possibility for your problem report. While there is no mention of the lock, that's probably because this feature is a real "hot potato" on the various gun forums and I suspect S&W really doesn't like to see any postings about their fixing a lock, so any repair in this area is probably not documented to the customer.

Hi Scooter. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to explain in depth to my posts. I learned a lot. Not being inclined to work on firearms, I bought firearms that went bang out of the box. Up to this point S&W, Glock, and Les Baer have been flawless. I won't buy anymore S&W with the lock. My wife's new 60ls just went out the window. All that time convincing her she really needed one . I will be looking for a pre-lock. Now if I can figure out the difference between fluted and unfluted

Again, thank-you for your time.

nod

Hi Nod,

Just got my 686+ back from S&W today (2 Dec.) Sent in in with same problems. Reply was:

Repaired: Repair BBL
Repaired: Cut forcing cone
Repaired: Repair yoke

Been carrying/using S&W revolvers for 45 years and never had a problem until I bought two new ones in 2009; 686+ 6" and a 617 4". Had to send the brand new 617 back without firing the first round. Locked up right out of the box. Got it fixed but take my 1950's K 22s to the range.

Only fired about 200 rounds of light to medium loads out of the never abused 686 before it started locking up. Think I'll stick with the pre-1964's.

Hi ArkieVol,

On Dec 1 I got my 686 back. In the box with the work order showing repairs (It has been a pleasure serving you ). Also included was a pamphlet. It is the "YOUTH HANDGUN SAFETY ACT NOTICE". I am kinda wondering why that wasn't in the box with the new gun (we just purchased them). I guess they know the gun actually works now Did you get the same pamphlet?

nod

Yes, I got the same pamphlet. I guess they assumed we would keep the gun after the original purchase and didn't include the pamphlet. But, after they broke, we might want to sell them and ATF wanted to make sure we didn't sell them to a juvenile.

Government logic...what an oxymoron. Who knows?

LOL

Last Friday I finally had a chance to shoot the 686. Again, I come the the group with a couple of more dumb questions. I shot a box of Winchester white box 110gr 357mag and a few personal defense rounds and a box of Winchester white box 130gr 38 special and a few 38 personal defense rounds. I figure 125 rounds total. It seemed like the pistol was shooting all over the paper. I did slightly better with the 357mag rounds. The 38 special rounds just flew all over the target. Now, I don't claim to be no dead eye dick, but normally I can keep 98 percent of the rounds in a 5 inch shot n see target. I admit I haven't been to the range lately. That being said, I was hitting the target fine before I sent the revolver back for repair. Also, I took my 45 acp and was hitting the target fine. Looking at my previous post about the repairs could S&W do anything to cause the revolver to shoot all over the place??? Second question. After shooting it I noticed the back end of the cylinder was filthy. I know the forward end of the cylinder gets filthy but have never noted the back end to get that bad. A couple of pics (best I could do)

[IMG]


Does Flitz work good for cleaning the carbon off?

Thanx, nod

Exactly. We always called it "shotgunning" and they do it to avoid the gun coming back again.

As you've just seen, WWB is a pretty foul shooting ammo. I avoid it unless it's the only thing I can find because of the cleanup it requires.

For cleaning, I would totally avoid using Flitz on the cylinder, the abrasives can cause the extractor to sieze up if they get into that area. The best gun cleaner I've found is M Pro 7. It's not cheap but smells good and does a great job of loosening up carbon deposits. That and a toothbrush will make quick work of cleaning up the rear of your cylinder and the frame. For the face of the cylinder, a good soak with M Pro 7 while cleaning the barrel will allow the carbon to come off fairly quickly with the use of Lead Away cleaning clothes from Kleenbore. Then 10 or 15 strokes with a bronze brush soaked with M Pro 7 will leave the chambers in the cylinder looking factory fresh.

I'll also note that some don't believe in totally cleaning the face of the cylinder and they have sound reasons for not doing this. The fact is that the Lead Away cleaning cloths contain some abrasive elements. So, 5 or 10 years of completely cleaning this area will probably cause the B/C gap to open up by some amount. If you can resist the urge to have your gun looking NIB, it's probably best to just use the M Pro 7 and a toothbrush on the face of the cylinder. Unfortunately I'm a bit too OCD to follow this excellent advice.

That good advice goes double for the bore: resist the urge to make it sparkle every time you shoot the gun. The amount of scrubbing it takes to get that tiny bit of fouling out of the grooves wears the bore over time.

Thank-you on the advice on cleaning. What about not being able to hit the target? Did S&W cause the revolver to shot all over the place? I realize it could have been me but I was hitting fine with my semi auto.

nod

Try shooting from a bench rest in single action before you blame the gun.

When I purchased my first revolver, a 67-1, it took a solid 2 months of weekly practice before I shot it well in double action. On a positive note, when I returned to shooting my semi's after mastering the DA trigger on the 67 I found that I had blown through the plateau that I had hit with the semi's. Fact is that NOTHING is better for mastering a good clean trigger stroke than learning to shoot a revolver in Double Action.

Bottomline, I suspect you're all over the target simply because you need to learn how to shoot with a long and heavy trigger. It's not easy, but it is worth the effort. As for how to begin, a slow motion pull at a steady rate without pause until the gun fires. During that slow motion pull, pay close attention to the sights and do your best to hold the sighting on target throughout the pull. It will also help to get some snap caps and practice this at home. It will also help to experment with the position of your finger on the trigger and find the point that produces the least sight movement. Finally, don't be surprized if you "shoot the rim off" your snap caps, I'm currently on my 3rd set for the 67, they do wear out with practice.

Thank-you Scooter and everyone that posted. I absolutely agree with Scooter on the practice. I am going to order some snap caps to help my wife. I have mostly shot SA and DA every once in a while. I am going to take the revolver and shoot it one more time to see how it shoots. I am going to clean under the star and just shoot it. If I still have problems I will have a gun smith look at it or sell it.

nod

Two more really good things to try are different brands and weights of ammo and have someone else try shooting the gun to see if they can shoot it well or not. I had a buddy who was going to sell his 629 because he said it wouldn't shoot. I asked him if I could use it and he said yes. I put it on a sand bag with my ammo and shoot a 10 shot group that was less then 2 inches wide at 20 yards. He still has the gun many years later and still thanks me for showing him it was him and not the gun.

Graydog

Hi nod, I see nobody's answered this for you.

I'm no expert by any means, but I believe fluting refers to the indentations between chambers in the outside circumference of the cylinder, at the front end rather than the ratchet notches near the rear, probably to reduce weight with a minimal reduction in strength. It also refers to indentations along the length of some of the heavier barrels, more than likely for the same reason.

If you have, or can borrow, one of those semi-useless laser boresighter gadgets, use it while dry-firing and watch the little red dot jumping around on the far wall as you squeeze the DA trigger. (Taping on a narrow beamed flashlight will work)

Another thing not mentioned is the DA trigger of a new S&W (or any other brand). The first three S&Ws I bought (15-3, 19-3 & 686 no dash) were used and had DA triggers smooth as silk while the DA trigger on my first new S&W (637) felt like a washboard road with rubber cement mixed in with the gravel.
Rather than springing for a trigger job, I've dry fired and shot the roughness out of it and while it isn't there yet, it is a lot closer. IIRC, it takes somewhere around 5 to 6 thousand rounds to break in the trigger and dry firing is the same as live fire for breaking in triggers.

FWIW and YMMV, my 4" 686 (c. 1986) doesn't like light for caliber bullets and it likes exposed lead better than jacketed or plated.
Like others have said, try a variety of ammo to see what it likes, all guns are different.

Hope this helps,
John

__________________
Age + Treachery = JohnnieB

One additional note about shooting from a bench rest. That is that you have to be careful to NOT "chase" your impacts on the target. If the sighting isn't zeroed dead on, you'll just "chase" your previous hits all over the target. I kile to put up a shoot-nc- sticker when I'm testing for grouping. Before I paste it on the target I'll use a nickle or penny to scrape off a bit of the black layer to expose the yellow so that I can use it as an aiming point. Then it's a simple matter of aiming at that spot for each shot and then see where the group centers. If you use an 8 inch sticker, you can set it up with multiple aiming spots and really cut down the time it takes to get the sights dialed in perfect.

I'll also tell you that I try and spend some time bench shooting at least once a month. As for why, I've found that shooting from a rest is a great way to isolate on perfecting your trigger release skills.

One additional tip, with a 1 piece barrel such as that on your 686 it's CRITICAL that you don't let the barrel touch anything during fire. One piece barrels do "ring" a bit like a bell when a bullet is fired, Because of this, anything in contact with the barrel will impeded it from "ringing true". This means that you have to plant your hands on the bench, take a breath, and then release the trigger about 1/2 way through a slow gentle exhale. BTW, I learned this lesson from experience, on my 610 resting the barrel on a sandbag rest will more than double the group size. On my 617, it's not nearly as bad, perhaps only a 10-20% loss in accuracy.

I would like to do what graydog said and have someone else shoot it. Got a minute Scooter, I'll have you shoot it I will try what johnnieb suggested. I know for a fact my hands shake pretty bad now but I was hitting good with another weapon. I guess this is my punishment for giving away my other 686 (but hey, it was my daughter). I really like this 686 as it feels good in my hand and recoil is not a problem. I like my S&Ws but I don't see anymore with a lock (I know, it's not a lock problem) but my three no locks flawless. I'd like to thank everyone that took the time to this thread. Learned a lot. I will post back to this thread with the current info on the problem.

nod

nod-I hate to hear of the problems you're having with such a sweet looking revolver. If you continue to have them I think I'd go with removing the lock and getting the "plug". You shouldn't have to do that with a new revolver but...it's not the first time anyone's had problems with the IL's.

I use to wonder why I'd start getting a bit nervous when I would put my ear muffs on. Without them, of course, I'd go deaf in short order but nevertheless, I was much calmer just aiming without them. Put them on and I'd start shaking a bit. Nonsense I know but, that's the way it was. Maybe it was the anticipation.

Maybe the first place to start is to ask if the gun FUNCTIONS without failure now that it's back?

As to accuracy: the only way to set your sights is to shoot rested. A 686 should be an inch gun, at least, at 25 yards with open sights(yeah, even a 2 1/2" barrel). Shoot it single action to sight it in. If you use factory ammo buy the good stuff and stay with 158gr weight. Avoid lead bullets unless you shoot hard CAST(not swaged) reloads. Before sending the gun in again have someone else work with it if you're having trouble(no need to be embarrassed about it not shooting just yet, people who shoot thousands of rounds a year sometimes just leave their coordination someplace else when it comes to pure accuracy work!).

And last......if you're gonna throw away lock guns let me know, I've got a big trash can. Your troubles are the result of rushed production and spotty QC rather than basic design flaws and right now EVERYBODY who makes guns is having those problems: just check out some of the other Forums.

I have the same problem so sent it to S&W on 2/19/13. I have called them twice now for a status. Although customer service is very polite, they can't give me a date as to when they can even look at it. I checked the ejector thoroughly cleaned the gun and still it was locked up. Since they were bought out, it isn't the same company when it comes to customer service.