Heaviest load for grizzly bears in .500 S&W

I love my 6 inch .500 smith and wesson! I fired it with 400 some grain loads and its not all that bad. I want to carry it as a back up to hunting grizzlys with a rifle, bow hunting deer in grizzly country, and hiking in grizzly country without a rifle.

My question is are hard cast the best penetrators? Can I run a 600 or 700 grain without losing penetration and range as well as having the most knock down power?

I do shoot a bit of mid range with my revolvers. I want a round that can shoot straight to 100-150 yards.

What rifle does this revolver compare to?


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700 gr bullet @ 1200 fps does not compare to any rifle I am familiar with. Bump a 500 gr up to 1500 fps and it comes close to a class 1 45-70 with a trajectory charitably described as rainbow like.
My Stateof MT has the largest population of Grizzlies in the lower 48 though you cannot hunt them at this time. Deer are rarely found in Grizzly territory as Elk seem to hang out more in that type of terrain. Alaska has a minimal deer population and they are near Kodiak Bear not Grizzly Bear. In Canada it is illegal to carry a pistol while hunting, so I am not sure what you want or if you know what you want.
I find the type of meplate a bullet has, has a lot more to do with hunting efficiency than the hardness it is cast at. A round nose may be the best penetrator but inefficient in killing because of it's inability to displace tissue. Properly driven. a flat meplate 44 should shoot through several grizzly bears. It may take longer for the bears to realize they are dying however.
I would no more want to carry an X frame while backpacking than an extra 10 lbs of rocks, but that is just me.

You might find some bear wisdom in the JJHack posts. There are some comments in there about hardcast vs jacketed bullets that should interest you. Personally, I am sticking with Hornady XTP's: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2911043/m/21810798?r=43810798#43810798

This might interest you as well: Garrett Cartridges Inc.

Also: http://www.takdriver.com/showthread.php?t=723

You also asked what rifle your handgun compares to. Be careful when using "energy" figures, because they overstate the effect of velocity, and ignore caliber and minimize bullet weight (mass X velosity squared).

Looking at Horandy's web site for example, the 350 and 500 grain loads deliver around 2,200 ft-lb of energy. That is about the same as a .35 Remington rifle....with which nobody would want to go griz hunting. The 300 grain bullet on the other hand gets 2,868 ft-lbs (which is in the ~30-06 range), but does it with increased velocity and far lower bullet weight.

A 440 gr hardcast will tremendously outpenetrate any .30-06, it's more like a .375 H&H in terms of "stopping power" whatever that is, a term that is debated endlessly. It will easily shoot through a grizzly end to end.

Dick Metcalf of Shooting Times shot a large cape buffalo with such a round. Shattered the front shoulder and STILL penetrated over 5' of tough buffalo. Animal ran a short distance and died.

That round is vastly more powerful than the .45-70s and such that decimated the vast buffalo herds in the US. Don

I have shot 500s extensively, most of said shooting being at targets but I did harvest a deer with one in '03. I fiddled around with different loads and bullets for a while, but always came back to the Cor-Bon 440 grain as a favorite. My current handload duplicates that loading using a CastPerformance 440 grain gas-check flat-point bullet. I can't say what an equivalent rifle loading would be, but am thinking a heavy 45/70.

There is truly something about the 500 with a 440 grain flat-nosed hard-cased bullet that is tough to describe. Shooting them at not only game (just one instance for me, but anecdotal accounts from others as well), but at targets, fruit, rocks, 2x6s, etc., demonstrates to me a true degree of knock-down power which is pretty unprecedented and exponentially more impressive than, say, a 44 Magnum or 454 Casull. It just flattens, clobbers, stuff. Seriously.

mtgianni said:

700 gr bullet @ 1200 fps does not compare to any rifle I am familiar with. Bump a 500 gr up to 1500 fps and it comes close to a class 1 45-70 with a trajectory charitably described as rainbow like.
My Stateof MT has the largest population of Grizzlies in the lower 48 though you cannot hunt them at this time. Deer are rarely found in Grizzly territory as Elk seem to hang out more in that type of terrain. Alaska has a minimal deer population and they are near Kodiak Bear not Grizzly Bear. In Canada it is illegal to carry a pistol while hunting, so I am not sure what you want or if you know what you want.
I find the type of meplate a bullet has, has a lot more to do with hunting efficiency than the hardness it is cast at. A round nose may be the best penetrator but inefficient in killing because of it's inability to displace tissue. Properly driven. a flat meplate 44 should shoot through several grizzly bears. It may take longer for the bears to realize they are dying however.
I would no more want to carry an X frame while backpacking than an extra 10 lbs of rocks, but that is just me.

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Its not just Grizzlys. I come across black bears more often but plan to battle a Grizzly. I look at it in the sense of if I can defeat a Grizzly a black bear wont be an issue. Who makes better rounds than the site I listed? I am not recoil sensitive at all. Would also be nice to know this would penetrate common barriers. Is there a specific grain and type that will go through the most barriers and drop any animal that walks? Will never come across an elephant but would be nice to know my revolver would drop a t-rex

As was said, a 440 gr hard cast by Cast Performance or other prime manufacturers will capably take any animal that walks, including elephant as long as you place your shot. You have to place your shot with a .577 or .600 Nitro Express too. Don

DonD said:

As was said, a 440 gr hard cast by Cast Performance or other prime manufacturers will capably take any animal that walks, including elephant as long as you place your shot. You have to place your shot with a .577 or .600 Nitro Express too. Don

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What are the top three custom loaders for the .500? Would the 440 cause more damage than a 700 grain?

Buy the sampler from Bill and Leona and test for yourself!

kip said:

What are the top three custom loaders for the .500? Would the 440 cause more damage than a 700 grain?

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Personally, I see no reason to use 700 gr slugs, they take up too much powder room in the case and can't be driven at very high velocities (even for a revolver).

What's the need for 700 gr slugs? None that I see other than amusement. The 440s would give much higher velocities and more hydrostatic shock (another "stopping power" term that is highly debated). Since the 440 will penetrate most animals on the planet end to end, why do you feel a need for even more penetration? Stick with the 440s in my opinion.

Buffalo Bore is a good brand. Don

If you want a round that can shoot straight to 100-150yds the 500 Ain't it.

I've shot my 500's extensively at ranges from 25 to 100yds. with bullets ranging from 223gr to 700gr. Unless you're shooting a light bullet, somewhere around 300-325gr and pushing it over 2000fps it's going to drop like a rock. Remember what the McDonalds arches look like? That's what your trajectory is going to be going from 25 to 100yds, seriously. At those distances I've had as much as 3 feet of difference in common loads.

I have to agree with Don, the 700gr slugs are fun but I would not hunt with them. I'm pushing them a little over 1000fps but have much more confidence in the 440's with their somewhat flatter trajectory.

Pick a bullet and decide if you're going to hunt with them or use them for backup because the distance you choose to sight in at is going to be a tremendous factor here considering the trajectory. After you've decided which bullet to use, shoot it at varing distances so you know your limitations because it will be critical if your life is going to depend on it. Regardless of which bullet you choose it will have enough power to put down anything that walks, crawls or slithers as long as you place your shot.

Think you're not recoil shy, try shooting 700gr slugs out of a 2-3/8" ES snubby. It'll change you mind right now.

ohiococonut said:

Think you're not recoil shy, try shooting 700gr slugs out of a 2-3/8" ES snubby. It'll change you mind right now.

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Sorry Del, that just doesn't interest me. Don

I think it is a mistake to obsess about penetration. A hardcast will penetrate for sure, but it will only make a small hole and if you don't hit some major part of the CNS or a major blood vessel, you are not going to immediately disable the animal. A good analogy is someone getting shot with a 9mm FMJ, and they don't even realize it! They will probably die later, but in the meanwhile they have lots of time to kill you....

Hardcast might be OK for hunting, where the animal will run off and you will just follow the blood trail to your kill (doesn't sound very humane to me), but for defensive shooting I personally will be sticking with Hornady XTP's. If I miss the CNS or a major vessel, at least I am likely to create enough general tissue damage to cause enough blood loss to down the animal more quickly.

off road said:

I think it is a mistake to obsess about penetration. A hardcast will penetrate for sure, but it will only make a small hole and if you don't hit some major part of the CNS or a major blood vessel, you are not going to immediately disable the animal. A good analogy is someone getting shot with a 9mm FMJ, and they don't even realize it! They will probably die later, but in the meanwhile they have lots of time to kill you....

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I don't think any animals will shrug off the effects of a flat meplat 440 gr, .50 cal hardcast slug. They do more than just make a hole.

I shot 6 water filled gallon milk jugs with a 370gr hardcast at 1800fps out of one of my .500s. From 10' back, it got me wet and soaked the sand a measured 30' yes 30 feet either side of the jugs. Not precise ballistic testing but a dramatic display of energy and destruction. Don

DonD said:

Personally, I see no reason to use 700 gr slugs, they take up too much powder room in the case and can't be driven at very high velocities (even for a revolver).

What's the need for 700 gr slugs? None that I see other than amusement. The 440s would give much higher velocities and more hydrostatic shock (another "stopping power" term that is highly debated). Since the 440 will penetrate most animals on the planet end to end, why do you feel a need for even more penetration? Stick with the 440s in my opinion.

Buffalo Bore is a good brand. Don

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I don't know about a "need" but the heavy cast slugs penetrate well and can be launched at non-magnum velocities for very little leading. The ability to hard cast and fire also is a HUGE cost save over jacketed bullets.
I like the Sierra 400gr. JSP. I would say you should be able to bag anything in North American with it. I also shoot some of the Lee cast slugs around 440 grains depending on alloy. It too will work on about anything it hits. That being said I am waiting on a group buy for 600 grain hollow point molds. Its nice when you can make your own components.

I have shot through deer length wise with a heavy loaded .44. The 500 is overkill for deer and I doubt there is any critter that can take a hit in the shoulder joint and keep navigating afterwards.

Also you tend NOT to shoot a lot of the heavy loads either.......

Get a 460 and use 200 grain. over 2000fps and alot flatter shooting....IMHO

I dont think its always about the weight of the slug. Most 30 cal rifles from 30-06 to the high powered magnums are only 180 grain. Theres no bear walking around right now that could take a hit from a 300 WIN/WBY/WSM or REM Ultra Mag and live to tell about it.

Sure, you can get 700 grain slugs for the 500, but you will have to aim at the moon to have a chance at hitting anything more than 25 yards away. The ability to consistantly achieve good shot placement is much more valuable than throwing the heaviest slug and hoping to hit where it counts.

DonD said:

Sorry Del, that just doesn't interest me. Don

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Don,
That wasn't meant for you buddy. It was in reply to the initial post. When I first shot the 700gr slugs out of my 6-1/2" I thought "it's not that bad" so I loaded them up in the snubby. BIG mistake. I won't do it again either.

OHcoconut: I have found just the opposite, 2 3/8,4 with bill 700 gr really were not that bad. But put the 500,600, or 700 gr out of a 7.5 magnum research were brutal !!! Bill's 600/700 out of the 8 3/8 smith are a handful. I think it has to do with length of barrel ( not burning all the powder ) and the difference in the angle of the grip on the BFR. Both will shoot the 500/600/700 straight out to 50 yds, while the 700's begin to yaw @ 25-30 from my 4" smith. KIP------ Back to the post question load a 44 mag with 250 XTP, or the 500 with 440 hard cast-- then tie a 5 gallon bucket to a 75-100 ft rope, tie the other end to a 4 wheeler and have a friend drive "towards you ", when he is past start shooting " the bear in the head at 25 mph ". I would carry my 500 with 440 hard cast for head shots, and use my 375 H&H for hunting!! My 375 would need to be empty before I am going to switch to and open sighted handgun on a attacking bear!! Be Safe.

cal50 said:

I don't know about a "need" but the heavy cast slugs penetrate well and can be launched at non-magnum velocities for very little leading. The ability to hard cast and fire also is a HUGE cost save over jacketed bullets.
I like the Sierra 400gr. JSP. I would say you should be able to bag anything in North American with it. I also shoot some of the Lee cast slugs around 440 grains depending on alloy. It too will work on about anything it hits. That being said I am waiting on a group buy for 600 grain hollow point molds. Its nice when you can make your own components.

I have shot through deer length wise with a heavy loaded .44. The 500 is overkill for deer and I doubt there is any critter that can take a hit in the shoulder joint and keep navigating afterwards.

Also you tend NOT to shoot a lot of the heavy loads either.......

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Good points. My model 57.41 mag with hot hard cast 210 grain loads have shot through the entire length (stem to stern and vice versa) of a few Sitka blacktails when I lived in Kodiak and Sitka Alaska for 7 years. Guys said you had to have a .44 mag back then but my .41 mag was every bit as capable for bears and then some with my loads compared to their 240 gr. JSP's. The bullets were cast as a favor by J.D. Jones from SSK Handcannons as I grew up near him and watched him test his wildcats on groundhogs back in Ohio on our friends farm in my younger days. He is one BIG fella, knows his stuff, is a nice no BS kinda guy and can really shoot. Bones were easily busted along the way and I never found a single bullet after exiting on any of the deer. I was comfortable with the same loads for back up bear protection to my .338 Win Mag or 12 gauge when out hiking, hunting or camping. My only testing for penetration was on deer, alder and oak trees and they penetrate very well for a much lighter bullet than you are using. Haven't shot or owned and am not up on the 500 but it should easily get the job done and then some on any animal on earth with a good hard cast bullet.
JMHO