Trigger pull/Sight picture-Airweight

[ginzo]

My questions are, with only 1 range visit so far are-

I shoot my Auto's with the 1st pad of my trigger finger on the trigger with much success. I took my 638 to the range and did the same thing with fair to good success for a 1st outing.

I have average size hands but I noticed when dry firing I tend to pull the gun/barrel using the pad method. So I tried down to the 2nd joint, (dry fire only) which is a much more comfortable purchase on the gun and the barrel doesn't seem to move as much.

1-Is there a "proper" way to pull the trigger on a j-frame?
2-What is the proper sight picture looking down the barrel (V) to the front sight?

Thanks in advance,
Chuck

[skippysanchez]

I also use the pad if my finger when shooting semi-auto pistols, but I use the joint of my finger with my m60 for faster and more accurate follow-up shots.

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

[InTheWoods]

Yep, I use the joint of my finger when shooting double-action revolvers and tupperware pistols. If I use the pad of my finger, the shots tend to go low right. I do use the pad when firing single-action autos.

[Boogsawaste]

I've been using the joint. If you find a grip that covers the back strap it'll add a little length to the gun and for me that makes it easier to hold it straight while pulling the trigger.

[wrangler5]

The fact that you want this particular answer is an excellent excuse (pardon me, rational reason) to put a Crimson Trace laser grip on that gun. It's the best dry fire tool out there, in addition to putting an "adjustable sight" on a J frame AND providing the ablity to shoot accurately without having to get the gun to eye level and align the sights. When dry firing, it will give you instant feedback on what's happening to the muzzle of your gun throughout the trigger stroke. Change your hand position, grip strength, finger position on trigger, whatever, and you can see instantly what difference, if any, it makes at the target.

My 638 started with the boot-grip sized LG-405, but I found it to be not-very-comfortable to shoot during practice. I've switched to the larger LG-305, and while the gun no longer disappears into the pocket of my jeans, I never carry it there anyway, and it conceals just as easily in the IWB holster where it lives. It's also much more tolerable to practice with.

[snubbyfan]

I found that Pachmayr Compact grips work well with my xl hands. My trigger finger just falls naturally on the first joint.
I agree that a laser is an excellent dry fire tool. I put a laserlyte side mount laser on my 442.
It still conceals well either on my hip or in my pocket.

[skippysanchez]

Originally Posted by wrangler5

...put a Crimson Trace laser grip on that gun. It's the best dry fire tool out there, in addition to putting an "adjustable sight" on a J frame AND providing the ablity to shoot accurately without having to get the gun to eye level and align the sights. When dry firing, it will give you instant feedback on what's happening to the muzzle of your gun throughout the trigger stroke. Change your hand position, grip strength, finger position on trigger, whatever, and you can see instantly what difference, if any, it makes at the target.

Indeed. Best money I've spent is on CT grips. Have them on two 1911s and my snub.

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

[Pisgah]

Different strokes for different folks, but using the joint as the point of trigger contact is generally considered "the right way" for DA revolver shooting.

[kaaskop49]

I, too, had been using the first joint, the 'power crease' as described by Ayoob. My present retired FBI instructor now has me using the area directly in front of the crease. It is a more sensitive spot and enables me to follow through more smoothly. Works for me.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

[Bill Douglas]

My thoughts as long as it is not being "pushed" to the left or "pulled" to the right it doesn't matter.

[4011]

Find the thread on the forum of the old FBI training film of revolver shooting. 16 minutes long explains the whole thing.

[kaaskop49]

Also saw that FBI training flick on YouTube.

[ginzo]

Glad I'm not a complete dufus, I'm "auto trained" so I figured I was doing something wrong!!

I like the joint of my finger feel better, but it just felt "dirty"...........

Now for the sight picture issue, until I decide about CT grips. I'm old school, and I figure if you learn the hard way, ie. iron sights, DA, etc then all the other stuff comes easy.

I'll just go to the range and work on it some more to see where I need to be. (but honey).........I don't shoot so good, I need more range time......

[Boogsawaste]

Chuck, the proper sight picture is everything squared up. Front sight is level with the top of the rear and right smack dab in the middle.

Is that what you were asking?

[TJHuxley]

Originally Posted by Boogsawaste

Chuck, the proper sight picture is everything squared up. Front sight is level with the top of the rear and right smack dab in the middle.

Is that what you were asking?

Like Jim says the channel valley works like an adj rear sight notch. In practice, and you are on the spot to practice, shoot when the front sight is visible in the valley but does not break above the valley top. You may want to try painting the front sight top and ramp with a vivid red nail polish. I find nail polish makes a huge difference on the black ramps of revolvers.

[ginzo]

Yes to both of you. TY.

I think I have it now.

To recap, The upper edges of the rear "notch" (or valley) are like the rear sight of an auto, so the plane of the top of the rear notch should be level with the plane of the top of the front sight? Sight picture is the same, ie. split the difference (airspace) on the front sight so the airspace is equal on both sides of the front sight in reference to the valley?

Or did I just make this to complicated? I feel like I'm pointing the gun downwards when I tried it my 1st outing, so most of my aim was the FULL front sight while looking at the base of the valley.

I think I got it, may have to go to the range Sunday to try it out. Any excuse will do!!!!

I think my snubbie is at the top of my EDC list in just the few short weeks I have had it. Both my .40's are locked up at this time. I'm amazed!

Originally Posted by Boogsawaste

Chuck, the proper sight picture is everything squared up. Front sight is level with the top of the rear and right smack dab in the middle.

Is that what you were asking?

Originally Posted by TJHuxley

Like Jim says the channel valley works like an adj rear sight notch. In practice, and you are on the spot to practice, shoot when the front sight is visible in the valley but does not break above the valley top. You may want to try painting the front sight top and ramp with a vivid red nail polish. I find nail polish makes a huge difference on the black ramps of revolvers.

[Boogsawaste]

Yup you got it. It'll look a lot like when shooting an auto. And these will be pointing down when the sights are aligned. By the time the bullet exits the barrel the recoil will have pulled the front of the gun up. If you're hitting the middle of the target now with the sight above the channel top, you are probably using lighter than 158grn bullets, or flinching and dropping the gun at the point of the hammer releasing.

You've already found out how to aim it if you are using lighter weight ammo by holding it high. But to see if you're flinching, load one of the charge holes with a spent round and 4 live ones (when at the range of course). Spin the cylinder and without looking, close it. You'll see real quick if you have a flinch because you'll drop the front sight on the spent cartridge.

[ginzo]

YOU SIR, are a genius!

I was using 125gr rounds. I think the heaviest I have come across so far is 130gr. Very scarce here. Just bought 100 rounds FMJ 130gr in GA on trip last week.

LOL, I didn't know I was aiming high to compensate for light loads....... I just was trying to figure the little bugger out! Excellent tip on the possible/probable flinch issue. Going to copy paste this bit of info and print it out for my range bag. I have notes galore that I take to the range to keep myself on course and moving forward.

[ginzo]

You are the man, here are 2 targets from this morning. I took your advice and loaded the cylinder with 1 spent and 4 live and sure as ***** I'm a flincher.

After I got some time in that way, I went extreme and loaded 1 live and 4 spent. If the 1st round was the live one, I started over. Also if I had 4 spent and I knew the 5th was live, I also started over. So never knowing where the live round was, I worked on my flinching. All of this is at 7 yards.

The 1st target was after I felt I got the flinching somewhat under control and just fired 10 rounds @ 7 yards.

The 2nd target is the 4 and 1 method with a total of 9 misses, all just outside the 8" target @ 7 yards.

Now that I have a bead on what I'm doing, It's more practice.

TY Boogsawaste
TY TJHuxley

Originally Posted by Boogsawaste

Yup you got it. It'll look a lot like when shooting an auto. And these will be pointing down when the sights are aligned. By the time the bullet exits the barrel the recoil will have pulled the front of the gun up. If you're hitting the middle of the target now with the sight above the channel top, you are probably using lighter than 158grn bullets, or flinching and dropping the gun at the point of the hammer releasing.

You've already found out how to aim it if you are using lighter weight ammo by holding it high. But to see if you're flinching, load one of the charge holes with a spent round and 4 live ones (when at the range of course). Spin the cylinder and without looking, close it. You'll see real quick if you have a flinch because you'll drop the front sight on the spent cartridge.

[Boogsawaste]

Looking like you're closing up your groups just fine! Nice shooting and I like how you reversed with the 4 spent and 1 live. I'm going to have to try that sometime. Keep up the good work!

[ginzo]

Thanks to you Sir!

I understand longer barrels and sight pictures and such, but I didn't realize how much harder it is to shoot/be accurate with a snubbie.

I love it!! I think this is going to be my EDC. Both of my .40's are locked up, so I guess it is? Good God, I hope I don't have to buy another...

I ran 100 rounds through it today. I found as my hand started to hurt/get tired, that if I gripped it a little higher and somewhat tighter, it wasn't so snappy.

Thanks again for the "jump start", it would be quite the struggle trying to figure out what works. (back to the soccer game).

[Jaymo]

If I use the first joint when shooting a J frame, the tip of my trigger (sausage) finger hits the trigger guard and slows down the trigger pull.
It gets sort of caught between the rear of the trigger and the trigger guard.

[Boogsawaste]

No problem and glad I could help out. I'm not sure where I came up with that method of the spent shell, but I'm sure I probably saw it on here.

[ginzo]

I'm still deciding if the 1st joint or the 2nd joint of my sausage is more comfortable. If I use #1, I have your problem, if I use #2, then I have to adjust my thumb on my support hand as the two try to occupy the same space!. Tried the tea-cup method some, still have to work it out. Only my 2nd range trip. 100 rounds today!!!

Originally Posted by Jaymo

If I use the first joint when shooting a J frame, the tip of my trigger (sausage) finger hits the trigger guard and slows down the trigger pull.
It gets sort of caught between the rear of the trigger and the trigger guard.

Where ever you got it, it was a quick way to find the issue.

Lucky, I go to a little 5 lane indoor range on Sunday mornings about every 6-8 weeks and I'm usually by myself. They leave me alone as I work on my SD stuff. I ONLY do that when no one else is on the range. They see me on the camera, but they also respect I'm safe and only do it when I'm alone. Hard to find a place to draw from a holster.

Originally Posted by Boogsawaste

No problem and glad I could help out. I'm not sure where I came up with that method of the spent shell, but I'm sure I probably saw it on here.

[sac-gunslinger]

Pad of finger - single action pull (semi or revolver)

First joint - double action pull (again, semi or revolver)

The drawback of a couble action auto is that you must shift from a double-action grip to a single-action grip after the first shot. Some agencies have gone to training drills that have students shoot one double action then one single action then decock and holster to get students used to starting with the double action pull.

[ginzo]

Right now I am doing Everything DA. The trigger pull is already smoother and feels lighter than the 12 lb rating. After I get the DA down, I figure the SA "should" be a breeze.

[Guitarmageddon]

25 replies and no one bothers to mention the importance of gripping a revolver as high up on the grip as you can? This is the most important thing thats going to influence ANY trigger pull, double OR single. That hammer should be almost touching that finger webbing, but not quite, with each stroke. The lower down you are gripping on ANY revolver, I dont care the size, the more you are letting the piece of metal in your hand dictate its movement for you, instead of the other way around.

Once you commit that grip to muscle memory everything else falls into place.

Just my 2 cents, but I think youll find most proficient shooters (at least combat shooter/the kind of shooting youd be doing with a gun specific to concealment) adopt this method. If not, give it a try

[David R]

Originally Posted by Jaymo

If I use the first joint when shooting a J frame, the tip of my trigger (sausage) finger hits the trigger guard and slows down the trigger pull.
It gets sort of caught between the rear of the trigger and the trigger guard.

Same here. Only on my J frames.

[ginzo]

Do I get partial credit as a newb, even if it wasn't for the right reason?

Originally Posted by ginzo

I ran 100 rounds through it today. I found as my hand started to hurt/get tired, that if I gripped it a little higher and somewhat tighter, it wasn't so snappy.

Great tip, thank you!

Originally Posted by Guitarmageddon

25 replies and no one bothers to mention the importance of gripping a revolver as high up on the grip as you can? This is the most important thing thats going to influence ANY trigger pull, double OR single. That hammer should be almost touching that finger webbing, but not quite, with each stroke. The lower down you are gripping on ANY revolver, I dont care the size, the more you are letting the piece of metal in your hand dictate its movement for you, instead of the other way around.

Once you commit that grip to muscle memory everything else falls into place.

Just my 2 cents, but I think youll find most proficient shooters (at least combat shooter/the kind of shooting youd be doing with a gun specific to concealment) adopt this method. If not, give it a try

[8Ring]

For me the "pad of the index finger" vs. "first joint of the index finger" debate is settled. I have large thin hands with long fingers. If I use the first joint method with my 638, the tip of my index finger hits my left thumb before the gun goes off which really hurts accuracy and a steady trigger pull.

However, the stock springs in the J-frame cause a long and heavy double-action trigger pull. The best thing I did was install an Apex Tactical J-Frame trigger spring kit. I estimate it takes the pull weight down from 12-14 lbs. down to 9-10 lbs. and makes the whole stroke smoother. This kit is money well-spent.

I've shot a 625 in USPSA competition for several years using the pad of my index finger. After reading Grant Cunningham's revolver book (he's a big "first joint" advocate) I decided to try the first joint method for a few weeks. My scores and accuracy went to hell and I've reverted back to the pad of the index finger method.

Good dry firing practice with any size revolver will quickly show whether your double action trigger pull is moving the sights.

One commentator's remark about gripping the revolver as high as possible is very good advice. However, gripping the gun that high means that your trigger finger is actually pointed a about 10 to 15 degrees downward (assuming the barrel is horizontal) so you aren't pulling the trigger directly back but rather back and a bit up. So when you practice dry firing, make sure you use the highest grip possible and be mindful of your trigger stroke.

Good luck with your snubbie. And don't let any problems shooting it discourage you from trying revolvers with larger frames. They are much easier to shoot.