Winchester, Federal and Remington have all come out with 410 loads designed for revolvers. This afternoon I sampled some at the range. First up was Winchesters PDX1 410 load consisting of 3 flat discs backed by 12 copper plated BBs. Shooting at 3, 5, 7 and 10 yards the 3 flat discs grouped tightly but the BBs spread quite wide. As the range increased the discs stayed close. The BBs stayed withing a 10" circle at 3 and 5 yards but at 7 spread past the 10" circle, the BBs stayed mostly on a small silouette with perhaps 2 missing the siloutte.
The Federal load consisted of 4 000 copper plated buckshot. These loads produced one large hole at 3 yards, slightly larger at 5 yards. But even at 7 and 10 yards stayed within a 3 to 3 1/2" circle. Of the 2 loads I much prefer the Federal 000 Buck. Both would be devastating from 0 to 30 feet, but I feel the PDX1s' BBs could spread wide enough to miss a man size target and damage anything adjacent. The Federal load would stay inside a tight group plus they are much more affordable. Here's what Federals' load did to a waterjug followed by a waterjug hit with the PDX1 load. Great fun.

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	Federal 000 Buck vs Water Jug.jpg (97.4 KB, 766 views)
	PDX 1 vs water Jug.jpg (95.2 KB, 786 views)

I haven't tried out a Governor yet but have an ultralite Taurus. I found that imported shells, such as S&B and RIO gave me a lot of trouble. Very hard to load into the chambers because the hull is so swollen with tightly packed shot and they were almost impossible to extract after firing and had to be driven out. I think you're best to stick with Remington, Federal and Winchester.

Loco Weed, good advice, I've heard that before about foreign 410 and bargain basement 410 loads. The Federal and Winchester ammo I shot loaded and extracted very easily. I even played with Federal and Winchester game loads and again they were smooth going in and out of the cylinder.

I recently read a review on the Gov that cautioned against using ANY 410 loads not specifically designed for revolvers as the "shotgun" loads were tying up the cylinder.

I wonder what depth of penetration those 000 loads get in FBI-type testing?

Love the exploding-jug photos! This gun isn't on my short list, but it's on my "I want to have one eventually" list

I've posted several videos on You Tube titled S&W Governor Part 1 thru 4. Here's a 10 shot group at 25 yards using a sandbag rest fired with Winchester 45 Colt Cowboy loads. Though definately not a target pistol it http://youtu.be/2_iJ34EHuQsis still capable of accuracy that exceeded my expectations.

Attached Images

DSC02708.jpg (38.6 KB, 299 views)

Saw this test a while back by Guns&Ammo, using Winchester PDX-1 (I've heard Federal penetrates more) at 30 feet, they got 12" penetration.

.410 Revolvers - Guns & Ammo

Shooting Illustrated - Winchester 13" at 6ft.

Inside the Judge

This person claims 18" penetration with the Federal loads, not sure on the distance

.410 Revolvers - Guns & Ammo

THANKS for taking the time to post this info. BuckShot penetration was better than I would have guessed.

No problem, pretty interesting too because when alot of people refer to FBI tests they are talking about a single projectile penetration 12"+. I'm not sure how having three .43 caliber (winchester) or four .36 or .38 (federal) projectiles instead of one will change stopping power. I've heard some people say that 410 isn't a manstopper, kinda confusing though because Mossberg and Saiga make 410 home defense guns. I'm not sure, but personally I think that having four projectiles with the penetration tests above (i believe each projectile has the same energy as a 9mm) would have more stopping power than a 9mm for contact distance out to 30ft or so.

I'd agree with you. I can't see what difference shooting someone 4 times with 1 projectile or shooting someone once with 4 projectiles would make, if the projectiles were the same. What drives me batty is that I read endlessssss posts about which is the better/best self defense bullet (hey, it has to be bonded, must cost @ least $1.50 per round, +P is a must, 124 grain is great while 147 grain is not, etc....... ) and here come Taurus --- and now S&W --- saying, aw shucks, we recommend just using a round lead ball (or 4 of them). Well, all right then!

Mag318, thanks for the Range Report. I've been curious about the hangun specific .410 loads, which came out just after I sold my Taurus Judge (3" chambers).

I had heard reports about the standard .410 loads tying up the cylinder but heard that this issue was specific to a certain brand, or brands, of ammo. Based on those reports I only used a (the?) brand that was supposed to work without issue and I never had my cylinder bind up. I just wish I could remember what brand I was using but the information is out there somewhere, which is how I learned about it.......

I had high hopes for my Judge, which was purchased solely as a "Critter / Yard" Gun, not hunting mind you, but as an alternative to always running to get my shotgun when an animal was where it shouldn't have been.

I got two "critters" with my Judge within two weeks of getting it but the process didn't work out as smoothly as I had expected it would and I ended up using .45 Colts out of the Judge to get the job done. A third "critter" came along about a week later, a Raccoon, and I didn't even bother to try and shoot it with the Judge. I only fired up into the air as I chased it off the porch in an effort to run it up a nearby tree, which worked. After the 'coon was treed I stood there looking up at it then back down at the Judge in my hand a few times and even though the 'coon was only about 20' away from me I opted to go in and get my shotgun.
I sold the Judge shortly thereafter........

The only reason I mention all this is that, based on my experience, I wouldn't recommend any of the .410 Revolvers for self defense unless it were used in something like a "Answering the Door" role. I'm talking close-contact distances where over penetration might be an issue, i.e. houses close to each other.

When dealing with the 2nd critter I got with the Judge I remember saying out loud to myself, during the drawn out process, "I would be better off using a Louisville Slugger." I blurted that out because for the Judge to be truly effective I had to be within about 5' or so. 10' or more wasn't cutting it unless I was using it with the .45C loads.

To be fair, Taurus was marketing the Judge, at that time at least, as a "anti-carjacking" type of handgun where the perp would be right up in your face. In that role it just might be very effective, although I could think of smaller, lighter choices for the same duty that would be more versatile.

All of my experience was with 3" shells so I have no idea how the shorter 2.5-inchers would actually perform in action and if I were ever to get another Judge, or a Governor, it would strictly be used as a "fun gun". Personally I wouldn't rely on it to save my life, although it might be up to the task in certain circumstances......

From my range outings shooting a lot of different ammunition thru my Governor, I've concluded not only is it a fun gun but also very capable as a defense handgun. Check out my YouTube videos and see what you think. S&W Governor Part 1 - YouTube

If time permits I'll check out your vid's, with slow-speed dial up it's not a simple click & watch for me......

Mag, my opinion is based on shooting live animals, which are much smaller than people. If I were only shooting paper, water jugs, watermleons & the like my opinion may be a little different. On top of the fact that my targets were different in nature they were also dynamic, i.e. not static / stationary......

I know that the Revolver I switched to, chambered for .327 Fed Mag, has been far more effective as a "Critter / Yard" gun, even using .32 S&W Longs, than my Judge was using the 3" .410 loads. I did try different buck & game loads, although, as I alluded to in my first post, none of these shells were designed specifically for the short barrels on the Judge or Governor.

I found that to have any chance at stopping a critter with only 1 or 2 rounds out of my Judge the .45 C's were the way to go. When using a handgun for "critter duty" I generally never make "my move" to close the distance with my target until I'm within, at least, 30'-40' and try my best not to take my first shot until I half that distance. When all my chambers were loaded with .410 shells (3") I always ended up having to reload to get the job done and then I usually fell back on the .45 LC capability to do so just to make things go as quickly as possible. Your mileage may vary.

To put this into perspective, over the last 4 years I've shot 17 Raccoons, 5 'Possums & 2 Skunks. There had been more prior but I never kept track so the "sample size" I'm using gives me some idea of how effective one type of firearm & load is when compared to another for this sort of work.

Trust me, no one could have been more dissapointed than I was when The Judge didn't perform as I had expected it would. I thought I had found the perfect tool for a specific purpose. As I mentioned, at extremely close range a .410 Revolver may be highly effective, especially using the newer shells designed for just that purpose.

My goal in posting in this thread wasn't to bash the .410 Revolvers or to call into question anybody's opinion of their effectiveness. It was only to pass along my limited experience so others may have a little more information if thinking about buying a Governor.

Ogilvy, I totally agree with you in that real world experience is a much better barometer. I only tested 2 410 handgun loads on paper not critters. I hate racoons by the way so keep up the good work.

Mag, thank you for taking my posts in the spirit they were intended.

The only photo (see below) I've ever taken of the critters I've dealt with had to do with The Judge, and I only did so because, when it was all said & done, it seemed like such a major accomplishment.
That was the night I made the "Louisville Slugger" comment to myself.

I cropped out the head portion to remove the graphic aspect of what the .45C did.



I was out in the yard that night with the Judge in a Merlin Fanny Pack when I heard glass breaking from behind the house, which turned out to be an Ornament in one of my wife's flower gardens. When I slowly cleared the corner of the house I lit up the area with my flashlight.

I usually rely on a night vision monocular when investigating which allows me to sneak up on critters in the dark, critters (4 or 2 legged) that I know are out there already because they've tripped at least one of the 12 wireless, passive infra-red sensors that I have around the property.

When I lit up the area that night I already had the Judge out so I was able to quickly snap off a shot, of 000 buck I think it was, at about 15'. Possums are tough so it didn't surprise me that this one made a bee-line for a nearby barn and while it was doing so I was able to get another shot off from about 8' as I was running along-side of it.

The Possum went into the back side of the barn and since there was no door handy for me to enter I looked through the area where one of the boards was missing, which is how it made it in there, and seen that it was no more than 10-12' away, still upright but moving slowly (probably due to my first shots). It was from this distance, 10-12', that I fired my 3 remaining rounds. Those hits, and I'm sure I had to hit it at least twice, seemed to have little to no effect, at least it didn't go down after each shot, which, after watching for a few seconds, forced me to fire again. On my re-load I decided to go with the .45 C's I had in my ammo pouch and not any more of the .410's. One shot with the .45 did the trick.....

In all fairness, Possums are some tough critters that can take a lot of punishment, although one body shot from a 20 ga. (2 3/4" 1 oz. #4's) is usually very effective, even "at distance."

An oft overlooked aspect of Governor ownership. Think of it as a bit longer version of the 325 Night Guard, which weighs ~1.8 oz more. Same Al/Sc construction, tritium front Night Sight/fixed rear, a fraction of an inch longer barrel, same thickness at the cylinder, moonclip .45 ACP/GAP ready, etc - at a street price over $300 less? Oh yeah, it also chambers .45 Schoffield, .45 Colt, and 2.5" .410's.

Boy, ogilvyspecial, night vision monocular, chasing possums, emptying your Judge included - I'll bet Halloween will be pretty lonely at your abode! (TIC)

Stainz

The main importance of the four 000 Buckshot vs. a single light weight round, say a 9mm, is in the spreading around of the wound tracks. More potential of internal damage that the system has to accommodate- neurologically as well as systemically. Penetration with the Federal .410 load is certainly adequate, and multiply those .36 balls banking off of bone, tearing through veins and arteries, to say nothing of tearing-up muscles and organs... A surgical team could well have their hands full... Imagine two or more such loads being "dumped" into a torso, limb, or head... True, I'd prefer the magazine capacity of my G21's and G30's, but I'm going to put those in "cold storage," and carry two of my new Governors...

Gentlemen, your threads have already changed my intended load-outs. Thank-you, one and all...

OA, out...

Since my previous posts in this thread I came across a used Governor
and it now resides in my Merlin Fanny Pack doing yard duty, which
means I'm givin' this .410 Revolver "thing" one more try.

The last 10 Raccoons that have been taken out of here over the last 3 months
have all been live-trapped so The Governor hasn't been tested............yet.

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Ogy

Came to laud Federal's .410 Handgun load in 2-1/2" 000 buck (out of a shotgun).

Stayed to consider the evidence that the same load penetrates effectively out of a snubby barrel beyond point-blank distances; still not convinced, but don't think it's a gimmick, either.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot53.htm

Left glumly pondering blasting critters who are neither game nor predator.

Not judging, to each their own, just not getting it...

I did the live & let live thing (over 20 yr's) until the 3rd time our roof had to be fixed,
which was due to a Raccoon that I caught in the act after it had made it through the
shingles & was working on the roof boards when I shot it off of the roof with a Glock 26.
The two previous "roof jobs" required some live trapping in our attic before the roof
could even be dealt with. Have you ever seen what two full grown Raccoons
can do to attic insulation while engaged in a fight. Unfortunately I have......

In the not too distant past, another 'coon got in a bucket truck (boom type) and
severely damaged the wiring while trying to make a den, which wasn't cheap to fix.

In another case, a skunk had our yard looking like a convention of squirrels
got called out of "the building" while they were right in the middle of a "nut burying" contest.
Now we spray for grubs every year so the skunks, hopefully, won't come around.

If an animal behaves itself around here it gets a free pass, if it doesn't, the gloves come off.

The Possum pictured in this thread was up on the back porch and knocked off
one of my wife's decorative displays and broke it, which is when it crossed the line.

In spite of all that I'm still trying my best to work with "them," but, I've found that
when they start "coming in close" that things only go downhill from there.

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Ogy

000 buck loads from Federal are much lower velocity than their Remington counterparts. 850fps vs. 1225fps is huge and your penetration comments with the Federal load from a 2 3/4" barrel are justified.

I've fired a box of the Remington 000buck in my Governor. I have no concerns with penetration. It's got to be close to 1000fps and feels like a full-on 44 magnum in a 629.

The Federal #4 shot made for the handguns works very well to about 18-20 yards on critters. A good #8 skeet load is a nice subtle stinger hint if death is not necessary. Just make sure you get loads designed for handguns.

Enjoyed reading the thread but had to comment on the Raccoon relocation.

We have some very problematic Raccoons in South Florida, The local animal control advised that relocating Raccoons to a new area is tantamount to passing out Cholera blankets to the indigenous locals ,
Apparently these critters develop a certain degree of compartmentalized disease resistance that gets all fouled up by critters from another area and that extermination was preferred over relocation to protect the breed.

I don't know the accuracy of that statement but sounds plausible to me.
Then again I don't like Raccoons either. ; )

Raccoons aren't predators? I beg to differ, perhaps you might do a little research into the "Ursus Lotor" or wash bear (Wäsch Baren here in sunny Germany). They don't get much more predatorial, or much less endangered. You don't have to get it, but you should at least be informed about it.

Ogy, you had me convinced not to get one, until your last few posts....

If it won't cleanly kill an opossum or raccoon, it ain't much of a defense round nor varmint round, end of story. "Range" trips punching paper don't tell you much beyond relative accuracy or spread.

The whole advantage of a shotgun is two-fold: multiple hits and a wide pattern that makes it easier to hit a moving target quickly (hence "bird guns"). A 3" pattern at the above mentioned ranges is too dinky to offer any advantage over a single bullet. A .410 not only holds far fewer pellets than typical shotguns, but to slow them down by firing them out of a stubby revolver barrel makes them even more anemic and ineffective.

My .22 lr. revolver has killed many raccoons and 'possums cleanly with just one shot. Rarely has a second shot been needed. The 36 gr. hollowpoints kill much better than the solids. Those, or a .38 special, .45 Long Colt, a full-size 20 gauge or 12 gauge shotgun are all much better choices for culling varmints than a .410's few pellets out of a stubby barrel. I have no problem culling pests around my place, but I do feel it should be done as quickly and humanely as possible, and the field results mentioned above are not the way to go. Clean Break

I'm well aware of the diet of these particular omnivores.

"Predator" in my post referred -- obviously, I thought -- to the kind that is an active threat to family, pets or livestock. Raccoons don't pose this beyond, say, to poultry. Ogilvyspecial's first post didn't indicate predation to be an issue, and subsequent post confirmed it wasn't (except, perhaps, to roofs and attics).

Your last line is an obnoxious way of suggesting someone read-up on a subject, especially when you're mistaken.

I contacted Federal a while back and they stated that their 850fps spec was out of a snubby barrel, and that one could expect much higher velocities out of a full-sized shotgun. Do we know what kind of barrel Remington used for the 1225fps?

Like I said, not judging, just curious; there are reasons to have to get tougher with the local fauna and you listed some understandable ones (though I would have let the clumsy possum slide ).

Sorry, didn't mean to offend you, but I'm not mistaken either. They are indeed predators that cause a lot of mischief in a lot of areas, to include livestock among other things (poultry, crops, whichever is affected by their appetite). Foxes are in a similar category, and commonly have to be culled due to their invading living areas. Raccoons, depending on where you live, can be often be a big problem and for lots of reasons. I think that Ogy wasn't trying to make any kind of a statement on animal behaviour other than the use of his revolver, which is the subject of this thread, but perhaps I was mistaken on that count.

Not mistaken at all, in fact your above assessment is spot on.

When The Governor first came out I had already experienced my "Louisville Slugger"
moment, so, when I read where others were thinking that .410 loads out of a
handgun sounded like a good self defense idea I thought I would relate my experiences
with The Judge, which might help them come up with their own opinion on the issue.

To be honest, when I got my Judge I thought it would be a double duty gun,
critter control & self defense. When I had to struggle with it during critter
control I knew that .410's for self defense wasn't going to cut it for me.

I'm with Clean Break when it comes to animals, I want it to be quick and
as painless as possible for the animal, when I had no confidence
that it was going to work out that way I sold The Judge.

I have shot a couple of critters since getting The Governor but have relied
on my tried & true 20 gauge. I still carry The Governor on a nightly basis,
but just in case I find myself in a situation where my 20 gauge proves to be
too much gun for the area I find myself in at the time.

The last thing I want to do is experiment on critters to find out if The Governor,
with the newer .410 Handgun Loads, is more effective than The Judge was
with the "old school" .410 rounds (3".) Because of this I may never know if the
newer shells perform better on something living and am sure not going to rely on
paper punching results for that purpose, not after going that route with The Judge.
On paper it looked very effective, in action, not so much....

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Ogy

I meant you were mistaken in assuming I'm not familiar with the eating and behavioral habits of raccoons; I agree they can be pests.

But as far as predation goes, I don't think they merit the status of mountain lions, wild boars and coyotes, for instance. Heck, you can eat them, but that doesn't mean I'd call them game, either.

End of threadjack.

Returning to topic: I think The Governor is neither fish nor fowl -- both of which a raccoon will eat.

I concur 100%. Good call Hapworth, now that's the gentlemanly way to settle differences!

I see a lot of discussions about defensive 410 loads and other lead shot uses for the Governor. Does anyone know of non-toxic 410 for 2.5 inch that will fit the Governor? I would like to carry it with shotshells during pheasant hunting in case I get a cripple at close range. In Washington I must use non-toxic to be legal but hate to use 12ga at close range. I can't find any on the web for 2.5 inch shells. I think I may need to reload my own but any help is appreciated.

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TH in Pacific NW
NRA RSO

Gov or Judge for SD is a joke, a novelty gun really. Much better options out there. If you're going to carry something that larger get a 7 shot 357 in a 3-4" bbl and you'll be MUCH better off.

Careful now. This isn't a shotgun forum. The Gov. will be around for a few years until the novalty wears off like all the other combo guns that have come and gone. If it was a good idea everyone would hunt with a drilling or cape gun. MHO.

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That's just somebody talkin.

And "novelty" is perhaps it's genuine appeal. Who's to say it wouldn't be fun to shoot & to play with? If there was a bunch of campers around a fire and someone brought out a Governor and three or four boxes of varied ammo... who here wouldn't want to crank off a cylinder? I would. Some might argue that a Governor in the hand beats a safe queen every day of the week. Clean Break

I couldn't find a link for it on line, but there was a scathing review of the Judge in SWAT magazine a year or so ago. The parts that matter were all about the ballistic performance and tactical value of what it can/can't do. There may be a niche into which the concept fits, but I can't think of one. The Governor may be a better implementation of the concept, but it's still just a better quality of lipstick on the pig.

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NHI, 10-8.

The Governor is like a Swiss Army knife. It does a lot of things that other weapons do, but not as well as all of them. If you're needing ammo here, in the Western Hemisphere, chances are, finding something in .45 caliber will possibly meet your needs...

As a survival weapon, it could kill snakes, harvest very small to medium size game, and if necessary, turn bad people into good fertilizer. In a way, it's like the story of the dancing bear.
It wasn't that the bear danced so poorly, but that the bear danced at all...

For anti-carjacking duty, it's outstanding. Doesn't have to be .410ga 2 1/2" load of 000 buckshot. It could easily be 225gr .45 Colt FTX by Hornady. Likewise, it could be a full-moon clip of .45 ACP in Federal 230gr FMJ. Result would be the same, bad guy pushing-up daises. It's a beautifully designed weapon that can actually forgotten, until the moment of its' being needed...

Revolvers are inherently more safe for tyros and newbies, than, say, one of my beloved Glocks... Unlike a Glock, I sleep with one of my Governors under my pillow. The six or so pound trigger pull is acceptable, especially when going around in near pitch black, night vision device up to one eye, and the other glued onto the weapon's front sight...

No, it's not as capable in comparison to dedicated weapons. It is, however, capable of getting you back to the rifle or shotgun you shouldn't have put down in the first place, as Clint Smith, of Thunder Ranch, is wont to say...

IF you need a weapon for the PAW, and have more options to keep it fed, the Governor cannot be easily discounted...

OA, out...

Wow, this thread I started last year is still ongoing. I have to admit I still enjoy my Governor and I like the fact that S&W keeps coming out with new and interesting firearms. From the M&P22 to their new M&P Shield they've stayed cutting edge. Makes me wonder what will they bring out next. My LGS use to be a big S&W distributor and on the rare occassions he gets a shipment of Governors they disappear almost instantly. They are somewhat of a novelty, but the more I shoot mine the more I can see the utility of the 410/45 design. And ofcourse then there is the fun factor.

You mean like this?





Where I hunt, Drillings are no novelty, but a way of life for the serious hunter/woodsman and this one is fifty years old, pretty good for something that has "come and gone". Sometimes a "novelty" works better than the "norm": My trusty old Drilling will take any game that is in season with a simple flip of a switch, Fox, Reh, Gams, Damwild, Mouflon, Wild Boar, Red Stag, Ducks, etc. It's a time proven weapon that you see more often than not, at least in Europe.

I'm not seeing any reason the Governor couldn't fit into a pretty useful category better than novelty; combo guns are great once you get past the strange desire many have for large capacity, rapid fire weapons. Ammunition selection with one weapon is a pretty useful item, anywhere in the world.

I was steered to 4 buck 410 shells today for my new Governor....not from the place I bought it yesterday... looks like I made a mistake buying it...cheap mistake...
should I avoiding using any traditional 2.5 410 (4 Buck)..

SHould I only stay with 000 buck?

I use mine for self defense. Is it the best? No, probably not. Can I hit an opponent with it? You better believe it. I also carry a small 380 as it fits into my life better than my fullsize Glock 45. Will it work? I've seen enough proof to know that anything CAN work, as long as you do your part.
Critics say the 5.56 round is inadequate for our military, but the same rifle has been working since the 1960's.........
And if I could afford a drilling, I'd have one!

does the Governor not come in 3"?

Hum... that is very good shooting, especially given the absence of a definite aiming point on the silhouette target.

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<><

I've not bought or shot a Governor... yet. But, one of my church members bought one and is very pleased with it. Prior to buying it, she had only shot her father's S&W 36. She lives alone in a rural area. She told me that she likes the Governor for when she is four-wheeling and ... when she is hanging out the laundry. She has killed two large rattlesnakes, each with a single shot. From what she told me, the head of each snake was very torn up. I look over her revolver and concluded that it was extremely well made and finished and that if it were loaded with either .45 Colt or .410 slugs/buckshot, it would be very effective on any live target at across the room distances. Your pictures of the milk jugs mirror my own experiences shooting similar targets with .45 ACP and .44 Special ammo. A word to the wise... if you should try shooting some watermelons or cannalope, be sure to stand up wind.

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<><

I like mine you have 3 guns in one, its fun to shoot. just bought the holster for it, have try it.

No, only 2 1/2".

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Inconsistently consistent

I haven't read anything above about the recoil on the Governor, with its Scandium frame and 29.6 oz. weight. The last Scandium N frame I bought I resold in a hurry, it was punishing my arthritic hands too much, even with .38 special. If I get one, it is for close quarters woodpecker control, they are doing a number on my house, and I would use .410 bird shot. Is the .410 recoil different in nature?
Finally, is $699 a good price for a pre-owned but unfired specimen?
thanks,

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Ed

Don't know about y'all, but around here, raccoons and coyotes have an outbreak of rabies almost every year. Several have made the local news this year as having rabies. Also on another note, what's need have to do with getting a Governor. All of the guns I have will work for varmint disposal some better than others. I got my Governor because I wanted one.

I wasn't actively looking for a Governor but when I ran across a used one at my LGS for $485.00 I bought it because I wanted it. Everyone who has shot it loves it.