Model 60 or 642 for home defense?

[fullthrottle]

Hey everybody,

Please note that I have searched this forum and similar ones for information regarding my questions.

I'm an inexperienced handgun shooter looking for a "nightstand gun" for home defense. In doing research, I've decided that a new, high quality revolver capable of double action and in .38 caliber would probably fit my needs.

Originally I was looking at the 642 and liked it due to the double action-only, internal hammer, and price. But a gunsmith told me that the Model 60 is a superior gun as it produces less recoil (heavier) and is chambered for the .357. He said it would "be easier to shoot well with the Model 60." (Any truth to that?)

I'm now stuck between the two. The 642 is considerably less expensive but may be more difficult to shoot small groups than the Model 60.

Any advice or information would be appreciated. At this time, I have little to no interest in concealed carry. I will be at the range every week for at least the next few months practicing with whichever revolver I purchase.

Thanks!

[luis]

The M60 is better for several reasons including weight. The metal frame allows you to fire many more rounds for practice and practice is the only way to protect your family. Mag ammo can be used when out in the woods.

[JayDubya]

If your main goal is home defense, then the benefits of the 442/642 are of no use to you. They were designed as SELF defense weapons, concealed carry weapons, which come with their own set of characteristics: small size and light weight in particular. On the negative side, they kick like a mule -- even with range loads. They are not fun to shoot. I know; I have a 637 (the visible hammer version of the 642) which, after shooting several thousand rounds with it, I do not shoot it anymore. Got tired of creating and popping blisters on the web of my hand. My 686+ is much more fun, and is a formidable home defense weapon. I recommend you get the all-steel Model 60, and shoot .38 sp +p with it for home defense.

Cordially, Jack

[sw44spl]

I agree with what they said about the weight of the model 60 and the fact that it is SS.It will be something you can carry also.

[sdg380]

It is my understanding that the principal virtue of an alloy-framed firearm is that it is easier to carry. Since this is of no concern for HD, I would concur that a heavier model would be preferable to a M642 or the like--a steel-framed gun would be easier to shoot (less felt recoil), and would likely prove more durable (assuming many rounds of use.) But I think "easier to shoot" should carry the day for this application.

[Person]

Out of those two specific choices I would opt for the Model 60 for home defense simply because of the extra weight.

[fullthrottle]

Originally Posted by JayDubya

If your main goal is home defense, then the benefits of the 442/642 are of no use to you. They were designed as SELF defense weapons, concealed carry weapons, which come with their own set of characteristics: small size and light weight in particular. On the negative side, they kick like a mule -- even with range loads. They are not fun to shoot. I know; I have a 637 (the visible hammer version of the 642) which, after shooting several thousand rounds with it, I do not shoot it anymore. Got tired of creating and popping blisters on the web of my hand. My 686+ is much more fun, and is a formidable home defense weapon. I recommend you get the all-steel Model 60, and shoot .38 sp +p with it for home defense.

Cordially, Jack

Every reply has been helpful, but this one especially so.

Thanks very much. It looks like the 60 is the model for me. Any other information you guys are willing to share about the 60 would be greatly appreciated.

[Mack]

Neither. If I were looking for a home defense .38 that I was not going to carry I would go for a K frame with a 4" barrel. To be more specific I would get one of the used model 64's from someone like J&G or a local gun store:

Revolver

This is the one I would get because I like the round butt.

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info....oducts_id/3104

This will give you a 6 shot revolver that is easier to shoot. If not experienced I would have it checked out by a local gunsmith, put a grip on it I like and shoot it enough to become comfortable with it all for less than the price of a Mdl 60. YMMV.

[off road]

Of those two, the model 60 with 3" barrel would be the best if you don't intend to carry it. Also take a good look at the Ruger SP101.

There are certainly lots of very good choices out there in medium frame/higher capacity guns. If you want to shoot often at the range, those might be a better choice. Ruger GP100, Smith 686, etc.

[murphydog]

Agree, a police turn-in model 10 or 64 with a 4" heavy barrel would be the ideal first home defense gun. A 2" J frame (steel or alloy) is really a gun for experts or really determined and consistent practice, in my opinion.

[fullthrottle]

I appreciate the suggestions to look at other models. However, I am adamant about purchasing a new revolver, not used.

Thanks

[mattallamerican]

350$ for a 642 with no lock id look twice for that price

[fullthrottle]

Yes, the 642's retail price is what drew to me that model initially.

But, as was said, it probably doesn't fit my need. The 60 and the 686 two of you recommended both have heftier price tags, but if they are indeed much less challenging to shoot well (and shoot often) than a J frame, then I may just have to shut up and cough up the money.

Thanks

[6pack]

I have other guns secured but quickly assesable for home protection.

I will say this, however, the gun in your possesion beats the one in another room when you need it.

My respect for the 442 has been steadily growing since buying one last summer.

A good pocket holster and you are in business.

This taken on my cellphone minutes ago while I have the grill firing up nicely.




Seems like overkill to bring a gun to a BBQ, right?


Guess again.

Strange things have been occuring next door. My elderly neighbor has been in very, very poor health and some rogue associates of his daughter have been coming by when she makes here weekly visits (cash runs). They are a sorry looking lot, too. No doubt hooked on meth or etc. I've had to run one of them off when he walked into my garage under the ruse of wanting to "borrow" some yard tools.


Sad times for the old fella.


Anyway, If you plan on carry at all, then I advise getting the 442/642. That 15oz gun is nothing and contrary to "internet" reports, it does not shoot harshly at all. I thouroughly enjoy shooting mine.

Evenings will often find me walking the dogs. It slips into even gym shorts with zero problems...as long as I cinch up the drawstring waist a bit...it'll ride fine for 2 mile walks.

I'm glad they offered this one without the lock. I certainly wish that trend would expand to the rest of the line.


Good luck.

[M3Stuart]

IMHO, you cannot go wrong with any of the guns listed so far. They all have pluses and minuses which can be debated. Personally, I went through a snubbie phase but then decided I preferred 4" and 6" .38/.357s and 9mm semi-autos. Of course I also have .22LR SAs and .22 revolvers in various barrel lengths.

If nobody else has said it yet; find a gun that you think is really cool, for whatever reason, and that you'll go shoot a lot and get good with. Then, over time, other guns will catch your interest, you will try them out and develop your own set of likes and dislikes. You'll buy/sell/trade until you end up with what you like best - at that time....which of course will change...and then you'll buy some other gun...(repeat as necessary).

Shown in pic: S&W 6" 686-1 (no lock), Rossi (97104) 4" .357, Taurus 94SS4 4" .22LR

[Sportsterguy]

I'd go with a 4" 686 over either of the two revolvers you are asking about.
A snub requires training to hit the target and have heavy trigger pulls compared to a L frame 686. The larger revolver is much more accurate and will last you a lifetime making it worth the extra money. Plus it gives you one extra round that may come in handy. Even shooting .357's are a breeze with them and a much more potent round for self defense. If the recoil and muzzle blast are a bother buy some .38 Special +P's and you are still well armed.

THE BEST home defense weapon is a 12 gauge pump shotgun loaded with OO buckshot. Use the handgun to get to your shotgun. When someone hears the racking of a round they will leave rapidly or are just plain crazy or hopped up on drugs. If so they will be harder to take down with hits from a handgun. WAY more accurate than a handgun and very lethal. Don't go with the "OO buck penetrates too much" theory. A missed shot from a .38 or .357 handgun will penetrate even further and your chances of missing with the snub are way higher.

JMHO

[fullthrottle]

So it's like dating?

[smokey04]

I would suggest that a "J" frame revolver in any form is an experts gun.I have a 3" Mod. 60 in .357 and I love it but I am not a novice. If you want a house defense piece,I would recommend a "K" or "L" frame piece with a 4" barrel. Specifically,a Mod. 19, 66, or better yet,a 686. These guns have more weight["heft"], are easier to control and allow every ammo selection from target .38s to "full house" .357s. If you are not a reloader their versatility is unsurpassed. If you choose to carry,on ocassion,the "K" &"L" framed guns have filled that bill for years. Just my opinion, Nick

[RonS]

I've been shooting revolvers and other handguns since I was 8 years old, my 8th birthday present was time with my dad and a box of .38 Special reloads so I have no real recoil problems. But. . .I would not choose an alloy frame snubnose for a home defense gun.

If the Model 60 fits your hands I would buy the 3" barrel version for a nightstand gun, but if your hands are average size or larger I would also look at the Model 10, 64 or 67. In any case, check out alternative grips by S&W, Hogue or Pachmayr.

[airman]

I vote with Jaydubya. The 642 became painful, the 60 shoots like a dream. I am most accurate with it and it doesn't beat up my hands.

[goldenbb]

Originally Posted by fullthrottle

I appreciate the suggestions to look at other models. However, I am adamant about purchasing a new revolver, not used.

Thanks

The older used ones are higher quality overall, imho. You can't go wrong with a pinned barrel and firing pin on the hammer.

[Road Rat]

I got my wife a Model 10, 4", heavy barrel.......what a nice shooting .38 SPCL

Great trigger and even the grandson says, "Where is the recoil?"

However, the OP wants a new handgun (and who can blame a man for wanting a new one?).

In that case the Model 60 wins...

[Bud11]

I was in your similar position about a month ago. Went for the model 67 (4" .38 special) and love it.

[Lew Archer]

Another vote for a medium frame Smith and Wesson with a three or four inch barrel, chambered in .357 (which gives the .38 special option) or simply in .38.

I would go with a fixed sight model, since you are new to all this.

As others have suggested, used guns in like new condition are to be had and, to most of us here, are more desirable than current production. That said, you can certainly find a new production gun that meets the above requirements.

Small frame guns are meant for concealed carry. They are hard to shoot well. They can be very effective in the hands of an experienced shooter. They are NOT good guns to learn on.

The medium frame .38/.357 with three or four inch barrel, in blue or stainless steel, is an IDEAL all around handgun and is partcularly well suited for HD.

Just remember...when revolvers ruled the law enforcement roost, not so long ago, the FBI issued 3 inch Model 13s, the NYPD issued 4 inch Model 10s and the LAPD issued 4 inch Model 15s.

Note the FBI preference for the medium frame gun, despite the fact that Agents primarily carry their handguns concealed.

Once you make your pick and have spent some time with it, and are happy with it, consider buying a second one as a spare.

Good luck! I hope you enjoy your new gun, whatever you choose, and never need it to defend your life.

[iyn]

I picked up a model 67 as a home defense gun after my friend talked me out of a j frame. A 4" k-frame is easier to shoot. I also had a 2" model 15 about 10 years ago. Cool looking gun but hard to shoot well. it is cooler to hit your target with a 4", rather than miss with a snub.

[Stainz]

If you like the size of the 3" 60 over a 4" K-frame, like the 64 or 67, consider the 60 Pro, SKU #178013. For $20 more, MSRP, than a standard 3" 60, you get some significant improvements, including a tritium Night Sight on the front and some really nice wood grips. Mine, bought new 1/11, had the best trigger of any new J-frame I've tried right out of the box. Don't expect the fine trigger of a tricked out K/L/N frame, but it is quite decent. Good luck!

Stainz

[Mule88]

also with the m-60 its a nice option to be able to shoot single action if you wanted to.

[NiklasP]

I went through much this same search for suitable 38/357 S&W revolver a few years ago. Mine was to be used for much more than just home defense. I settled on a M60 in either 3 or 5 inch barrel and bought a 5-inch barreled one used because I got an excellent deal. I would certainly support selection of a 3.0 inch barreled M60. I have never regretted the choice. I would have been just as happy with a 3,0 inch barrel.

There is one thing I ended up doing to my M60 that I would highly recommend -- get a set of Pachmayr Gripper grips for it. With these grips this rather lightweight revolver is much, much easier to shoot accurately and with comfort, including with 158 grain loads at 1200 fps. With the factory grips I shoot poorly, especially in any instinctive HD kind of shooting. Any factory 357 load is painful to shoot with the factory grips. With the Gripper grips I shoot this M60 instinctively (point shooting) almost as accurately as with any of my other revolvers.

All my basic practice shooting is with normal 38 Spl loads. My defense loads are either 158 grain soft lead bullets at 1000 fps or 158 grain SWCHP gas checked bullets at 1200 fps.

One last recommendation, whatever gun you buy, dry fire it lots, especially in DA mode. That will greatly smooth out the trigger pull and give you lots of practice in DA firing.

Niklas

[Moonman]

Give the model 60 Pro 3" a look. Nice trigger right off, longer wood grips than a standard J frame size and they feel really good in the hand. I just installed these grips on my Model 63 22LR 3" too. The 60 Pro is stainless and heavier than the 442/642.

A really fine home defense revolver would be a 686 4". The 686 has weight, a smooth trigger, stainless, and a longer sight radius than the 442/642. (available 6 or 7 rounds)

A hand gun for home defense buys you time to get to the shotgun or rifle. An Airweight is NOT a beginners firearm.

Good luck with your choice, and choose wisely.

[off road]

You will eventually want to consider two handguns!

I always have a J-frame in my pocket (11 oz 342). This is my backup gun and it's always there!

Primary weapon for home defense should be a medium frame revolver or auto (Glock 23 is my preference).

As for long guns for home defense (shotgun or carbine), they are fine if you have lots of time and can manage to barracade yourself in a room and use it to cover a single door. But....when you are working in confined spaces like a hallway and you need to maneuver, they have decided disadvantages. My rule is to have a long gun, but don't ever count on it! Always be ready to transition to your handgun...and always be ready to transition to your backup gun if necessary!

Ammunition of home defense is very important too. You don't want to kill the person in the next room or your neighbors....but we can go there in another post.

[luangtom]

I would suggest that for purely home-defense, the stainless-steel revolver is chosen. It will withstand numerous more rounds than the light-weights and it is more comfortable to fire.

However, if you are looking at liability-factors, then consider a stainless-steel Model 640, which is DAO. It is the best of both worlds. If you are not going to fire single-action for target-shooting, then consider the 640.

[M3Stuart]

+1 on the Model 60 3" pro series. I don't have one yet, but it is on my list.

[sipowicz]

In my new book, "Nightstand Gun" I went with the model 60. In my next book...."Hey, I've got a gun on my ankle", I will be using the 642.

[photoman]

I'm a big fan of the 642 but would recommend the 640 in your situation (assuming you're not willing to go for a 686).

Even with the 640, you will need to experiment with bigger rubber grips and lighter loads in .38 Special to start with. The big advantage to buying a J frame is having the option of concealed carry later on.

[raveneap]

This is my Model 60. IMO, excellent in every way.

[senecaap]

The best gun for an inexperienced new shooter is a fixed sight K Frame, a Model 10 usually (S&W made more of them than everything else combined) with a 4" bbl. They balance well, have great triggers and have enough weight for the .38 Special, so recoil is much more pleasant than in a j frame. The 2-3" j frames are not accuracy kings, they require much practice to even be passable, even from people (myself included) who have been shooting their whole lives. The Model 10 (or 13, 64, 65) are naturals, some having phenomenal accuracy. The strong suit of the j frame is concealability. If you are not carrying everyday (or ever) concealment is a moot point, get a normal sized gun that has a full sized grip, frame and barrel, and shooting will be easier on you.

If you are adamant about getting a new revolver S&W still makes them, but at $720 new versus a $300-400 for an older model with nothing whatsoever wrong with it, it seems silly. For that kind of money you could find a nice 29 somewhere. For your first purchase you may wish to avoid a police trade in, sometimes they are not as cosmetically appealing, but there is nothing wrong with used guns, you've just let some other sucker eat the depreciation. Plus parts for the 10 are easy to come by.

But anything is better than nothing.

[99savage308]

Ooooook let get this straight? You want a home defense handgun. You are looking at a J-frame Smithy. One J-frame is a 38 spl light weight frame the other is a all stainless J-frame three fifty f...ing seven. This dude at the gun store says get the mod 60 three fifty f...ing seven and you are a virgin at the gun buying and shooting game and you are looking for a home defense gun. First the gun store dude is full of horse sh.t. The flash and ear spliting sound and the" What just hit my hand with a 2x4" feeling with the mod 60 you will have is not made for a "FNG". The mod 60 in 38 spl is a somewhat handfull to a Newby. That other light weight is a handfull to a Newby. If you want a home defense handgun,get a steel framed 38spl 4 inch barrel made by any of the gun makers out there. A Smithy sure but it is your money and your life be smart and safe.

[lamb]

Now that your thoroughly confused by everyone’s sincere help. I found that when it comes to gun purchases most often they chose what they wanted from the beginning. It really comes down to the gun that feels best in your hands. Its my belief that a 357 out of a short barreled gun would not be a good choice. Lots of recoil, Poor ballistics, over penetration, children or loved ones in other rooms.

[wnr700]

Short barrelled J frames are hard to master. It takes almost a religious conviction to master them.

The downside is a 442 or 642 is not a fun gun to take to the range. A Model 60 is a pretty sweet all purpose choice.

My choice for the bedside would be a 4 inch Model 64 or Model 10. You can find excellent exampes for $300 +/-. Others Models 15, 19, 65, 66 can fit the bill as well depending upon your budget.

I have he cousin of he Model 60, the 649 and it's more forgiving at the range. K frame or L frame are dream shooters.

I would seriously reconsider the Airweights, as a first gun choice. I would try to borrow one and feed the little beast a box before buying.

[steve42]

I've had a 642 for almost 20 years and I recently bought a M60 3" (I installed an Apex trigger). If I had to pick for home defense only, it would be the M60.

If you need home defense and a carry gun, it would be the 642. I bought a Hogue Monogrip for the 642 and it made a world of difference. I have shot 100-200 rounds at the range and no problems. Substantially better than the original grip, but a little larger.

If I only had one choice, it would be the 642. The Monogrip makes the difference for me.

[M3Stuart]

If you must get one of the two, get the m60 with the 3" barrel. Either the pro-series or the 'regular' one with AS.

When I was in your situation 25+ years ago, I bought a snubbie and then an airweight snubbie. After being unable to hit the broadside of a barn with either for a few years, I sold them both and started the long trek of learning how to shoot, and buy, handguns.

If I may generally summarize the comments here; "if you're new to the HD handgun game buy something with a 4" barrel".

IMHO; I agree with that statement. In my case; I can't return to where you're going...I don't own snubbie .38/.357s anymore because, personally, I had difficulty shooting them accurately and did not enjoy them.

[corgiS&W]

Originally Posted by steve42

I bought a Hogue Monogrip for the 642 and it made a world of difference. I have shot 100-200 rounds at the range and no problems. Substantially better than the original grip, but a little larger.

100% agreement with the change to the Hogue Monogrip. Bigger, yes, but better for a large hand and really makes it more pleasant to shoot.

[PALADIN85020]

I've had this question come up many times: "What's the best handgun for home defense?" It's almost always asked by someone without a lot of experience in shooting handguns. Here are the answers I invariably give them.

1. Get a double action medium frame revolver chambering either .357 magnum or .38 special. The .357 guns will also accept .38 specials.

2. Get a 4" barrel. It's the best compromise between handiness, ease of shooting, accuracy, power and retainability.

OK. Now let's examine the why of this recommendation.

First, a double action revolver can be kept loaded indefinitely; there are no unduly compressed springs that might take a set, unlike the potential for this in semiauto pistols.

Second, the double action revolver is as simple as it gets. Aim and pull the trigger. It's easy to see if it's loaded. For a house gun, it's probably best to get a hammered gun, giving the option of a quick defensive double action pull or a more deliberate precision aimed single action pull.

You want a gun with more heft for comfortable practice and control when firing in a pucker situation. The lightweight J-frames are intended for concealed carry. For this single purpose, they are unbeatable. But they are only 5-shot revolvers rather than 6 or more, and the kick with self-defense loads works against constant practice. The short barrels also reduce velocity. You have no need for concealability or lighter weight in the house; in fact you want that gun to be more visible in your hand to help prevent potential violence, and heavy enough so you can control it easily in firing, or as a last resort to use it as a bludgeon.

God help you if you have to struggle with an assailant for your gun. A 4" barrel is harder for an opponent to grasp than a longer one; you still have the advantage of more leverage to retain the gun. The 4" barrel also gives you higher velocity than shorter ones; more "thump" at the target.

Ease of shooting, firepower, simplicity, retainability and increased stopping power all point to a 4-inch medium frame .357/.38 hammered revolver for the role of a house gun for new shooters.

And then practice, practice, practice until the use of the gun is second nature to you.

That's the best advice I can give you. Here's a pic of the classic 4" Smith Model 10 in .38 special; very representative of what I'm talking about here.

John

[roaddog28]

Here is my home defense revolver loaded with 158gr LSWCHP +P.
My S&W model 10-14 4 inch

I bought this new with box and tools for $334 on gunbroker. I was lucky that a surplus store was going out of the gun business. This is the current model made by S&W. You can find these for way under the suggested retail price.
Good luck
Howard

[JayDubya]

This is Jack's daughter. It looks like my dad was on this forum frequently and enjoyed swapping gun stories and advice. He passed away this past Sunday, so I just wanted everyone to know that he didn't just stop communicating. It appears that he really got a kick out of this forum, and I thank you all for being part of that.

[sps282]

Between the two you mentioned I would recommend the model 60 in 3" barrel. I own both model 60 and 642, the 642 will be much harder to master and is punishing to the hand with +P loads. The model 60 is a better choice for home defense....although a good used model 10 would fit the bill at a much lower cost!

[jimmyj]

NO!
A "K" frame .38/.357 with four inch barrel is a better choice.
The Model 60/642 is a better choice for CCW.
I would reccommend a GLOCK but I have already been stun slapped this morning.

[Buford57]

I'll pile on here for the 4" .38/.357 DA. If this is a house gun only and your intention is to shoot only enough to become confident at the ranges found inside your home, this is the way to go. You will become confident much sooner. You may also find shooting enjoyable and shoot more, which is always a good thing. You will also save money on your initial purchase by buying a used K or L frame, which you can then invest in ammo and range time. I'm betting the gunsmith who recommended the heavier and (incrementally) longer barreled M60 has one for sale.

That said, I have owned, carried and shot (a lot) airweight snubs over the past 30 years and have not had the horrendous experiences some others describe. If you are raising blisters you have the wrong grips, the wrong grip or both. I bought a 642 recently and ran 100 rounds of target wadcutters followed by two or more cylinders each of 5 common SD loads (all but one of them +P). My eyes didn't cross, my nose didn't bleed and I didn't develop a drinking problem, and neither will you if you opt for the 642.

If you buy a SA/DA for self defense PLEASE don't practice shooting it single action. If, God forbid, you ever need to use it, you will revert to what you practiced. That is not the time to have your thumb slip off the hammer. Single action is for hunting, DA is for self defense. The 642/442/Centennial family at least remove that temptation.

My son is establishing his own household next month. He and his new bride will have a M15 as their house gun. Something either can use under stress.

[luangtom]

Originally Posted by JayDubya

This is Jack's daughter. It looks like my dad was on this forum frequently and enjoyed swapping gun stories and advice. He passed away this past Sunday, so I just wanted everyone to know that he didn't just stop communicating. It appears that he really got a kick out of this forum, and I thank you all for being part of that.

Condolences to you and the rest of the family. RIP, Jack....

[TACC1]

I'd just like to throw in my 2 cents worth. Originally, I started
with a Ruger 357. As time goes by, I have been realising that a heavy gun, with less recoil, would be easier to take away from me in a Just-woke-up situation. I learned to shoot double-action with a 642; it now holds the first grab position. Its light weight ensures that I can aim/point it anywhere when I'm groggy and motorskills haven't
gotten back to daytime levels.
Maybe you could find a range or forum member near you, and try a few rounds of different guns.
JMHO, TACC1.