Has anyone tried the Apex Tactical Duty/Carry Spring Kit for J-Frames? I know a lot of people like thier products for the M&P pistols. I don't own a J-frame yet, but the ones I've tried had pretty bad triggers. Thanks for your input.

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low speed, high drag

Please see my other post for a very positive review!

You must have posted this as I was replying to the other thread.

Randy Lee / Apex was well known for S&W revolver work before they had anything to do with M&P's.

By all reports, the Apex kit sounds like the best you'll get out of a J-frame trigger without replacing the whole gun with a Ruger LCR. :P

Yes, love the results.

I plan to try it, they are very highly regarded.

Give it a try and see if you like it. The parts are quality. I ended up going back to the stock rebound spring as I found the Apex spring too "mushy" on the return.

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Centennial Every Day

I made a post in the "other" thread too. Next time I have the opportunity...I may try Apex, but I have Wolff springs in all my j-frames. No issues, even in the 317's.

I have the Apex kit in my new 442-1. Smoother than factory? Yes. Lighter than factory? Slightly. Still heavy, but maybe that's to ensure primer ignition.

What's bothering me (maybe I'm over thinking this) is the trigger return feel, after the hammer drops, is sort of gritty or something. Hard to explain. I've owned half a dozen J-frames and don't remember this sensation during trigger return.

Just installed one on my 360. It reduced the pull by about 35% and is much smoother. I would recomend them.

Yes, in a 60-9. Much improved pull (smoother, lighter) and sight control.

I receive my apex kit(s) in the mail yesterday and I'm going to install them in my 642 and the wife's 36. Can't wait!!


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I tried it briefly. I prefer the stiff d/a on the factory 638.
The smoothness wasn't very different imo.

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27-2, 66-1, 640 Pro, 10-5

Don't worry, you're not losing your mind.

What you're noticing is the light rebound spring. I don't like them on stock guns for the reason you listed.

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Centennial Every Day

+1 [or 2].

Jerry Miculek says on his S&W trigger job DVD something to the effect of "a good trigger must have symmetry in both the the pull and release."

I completely agree (but I'm no one to question or validate the opinions of the greatest revo shooter of our generation).

IMO, light rebound springs lessen that symmetry. I sold my Kahr for that reason - I hated the lack of symmetry in it's trigger. I've read many internet opinions stating that the Kahr trigger is like a well tuned revo. Sorry, but no it's not.

With dry-firing, it seems to be smoothing out. I'll get some range time with the 442 and go from there. If the light trigger return bothers me while shooting live ammo, I'll look into getting the gun over to a gunsmith. I'm not gonna mess around with it myself.

I think the click when the cylinder latch pops back up under it's spring pressure when it is pushed back up by the trigger is a little more pronounced with the lighter rebound spring. Maybe that's part of the "gritty" feeling sensation.

I installed the apex kit in my 36 and 642 and fire about 50 rounds each through them. Huge improvement in both. I'm very happy with the results and didn't really notice anything mushy about the trigger return


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So what makes these (Apex) any better then Wolf Spring Kits? Wolfs are less expensive I know.

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De Oppresso Liber Μολὼν λαβέ

I've been watching for a comparison between these two since Apex came out with it's kit. I already had the Wolff kit in mine before the Apex came out or else I would have bought both. As it is I am immensely happy with my $8.00 Wolff kit and will not be buying the $24.00 Apex kit just to try.

It would be great if someone could install both, one after another, into the same gun and take trigger pull measurements. For some reason I can't find mention of anyone doing that.

I agree. I have used the Wolff springs many times myself, but not the Apex. I can't see what the big difference would be. A 9-pound spring is a 9-pound spring, or a 13-pound spring is a 13-pound spring...etc. If the Wolff fits properly (which they do) I can't see spending 3X for the Apex. You don't change any other part of the weapon...only the springs.

Maybe over time...the Apex will not weaken as a Wolff may. I don't have any history on the long-term, or high round-count with the Wolff. I don't know what the difference is other than the price.

With the Apex you also get an extended firing pin and spring, that is the key difference. I like the Apex kit for that reason.

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May God Bless The USA

I can certainly see where the FP spring would be a factor in FTF. Some have experienced FTF with the reduced springs and trimming a coil off the FP spring....usually solves the problem. I suppose Apex sends the reduced power FP spring in their kit....Wolff does not. That would make a price difference. It also seems that Apex has determined that altering the FP will also reduce FTF incidents.

I guess it's a matter of whether-or-not a shooter wants to pay the $8 for the Wolff springs and "tune" the FP spring themselves if necessary, or simply pay the extra for the complete Apex package.

It's entirely possible (and most probable) that the Apex kits ARE Wolff springs (or ISMI). I seriously doubt that Apex went to a spring manufacturer and had springs designed from the ground up.

The big difference between the Wolff kit and the Apex kit is the firing pin and spring. Changing the firing pin and spring will not change the feel of the trigger.

FYI... The ISMI J frame spring kit is $9.95.

S&W Revolver

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Centennial Every Day

It doesn't state the poundages of the springs - which I don't like. My experience with ISMI with other springs is very posiive though.

Just in case some may not know, the Wolff reduced hammer is 9-pounds and the kit has 3-rebound spring weights....15, 14 and 13. I have been using the 13-pound rebound along with the 9-pound hammer spring, even in the model 317's and having no issues at all. I have not changed the firing-pin, or it's spring. However....not a bad just-n-case idea while you're in there.

Hi guys,

If you don't mind I'll add a bit of information here.

Our springs are not ISMI or Wolff manufactured springs. They are entirely our own. I have a couple of spring manufacturers that do work for some of the major gun manufacturers here in the US. Randy and I each personally work with their design engineers on each spring we produce for our kits. We buy our spring by the lot of 5000 once they've passed our prototyping and QA standards. The J-frame kit springs required a total of 12 revisions before we approved them for production. We don't buy lots of 5000 springs for prototyping, but there is a fair amount of cost associated with the prototyping we do.

We don't list spring poundages because putting numbers on the springs in comparison to the afore mentioned spring's would just confuse most people. For example, if I told you a spring were at exactly 10 lbs, where is that measurement taken? Is that to amount of force required to coil bind the spring(collapse it entirely) or is that measurement taken to determine how much force is required to start moving the spring? What's the metric they use for their measurements?

We measure the amount of force required to compress our springs to the point of maximum compression in their operating environment. We use that metric because it gives us realistic numbers to work with. For example if I were to take 2 different springs that have a different number of coils and wire diameters that weigh in at 10lbs at coil bind, they will measure differently within their operational envelope. That's what causes springs to feel different though they weigh the same if you use a more basic measurement technique as described above.

We don't feel a need to compare our springs to others on the market because their springs are designed to work as they are and with the factory firing pin. If you decide not to purchase our kit, that's your choice and I have no hard feelings toward you for it.

Scott @ Apex

I for one....appreciate the information/clarification. It's not that often a supplier/manufacturer will visit a forum and post information. Thanks for the input.

This is exactly how mine feels in my newer 640. The pull is much better with a safe amount of weight but after ignition the return is almost gritty or something. It has zero problems so far though so I think it's pretty reliable. That return is just odd feeling.

Thanks for the update Scott. I promise not to spread rumors about IMSI or Wolff from here forward.

With that said, I'm on my way to the range to shoot my 442 equipped with CT laser grips and Apex spring kit.

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Centennial Every Day

First, Thank You Scott @ Appex for your post, very informative.

About a year ago I took my 642 J frame to 'my' gunsmith and ask for him to reduce trigger pull. $65 and a week later I could not tell any difference. He told me he had a choice of 3 springs in kit and used the lightest. I've been grinding my teeth in aggravation ever since. Sounds like he used the Wolf kit. At the time I didn't know anything about this subject. Since then I've gotten the MidwayUSA dvd and ask a bunch of questions about revolvers and ready to tackle the job myself.

When I read last week about the Apex and someone said it was about $20 I got real interested. Since he bought the price has gone up to $90 and that has slowed me down ... a bit.

I've ordered a digital trigger pull gauge because I want to know how much it is now and what the results will be. Several have commented that it is as important for the trigger action to be smooth as reduced. So there is some filing and polishing to do.

Please allow me to correct what I just read. The M&P kit we offer is $90, the J-frame kit is still $24.95 as it has been since we started offering them.

https://apextactical.com/store/produ...php?pid49.html

You can certainly do some polishing on the parts at the same time, it does make a world of difference.

Scott

I put the Apex kit in my 642 2 weeks ago, but still haven't been to the range to test it.

I'd avoid using files... even a fine one can take off too much very quickly. A stone should be all you need.

I did a polish job on my 642 while I had it open to install the Apex kit, and also installed "The Plug" at the same time. Nice smooth action now.

I agree. Honing and polishing...no cutting of any kind.

Thanks for the explanation Scott. I've got your kit in 3 of my J-Frames. Your kit works fine in my 431PD, but the kit installed in my latest purchase, a 432PD, does not - the trigger rebound spring seems too light - the trigger sticks about 1/2 way back to reset about every 3rd pull. I did some minor polishing of the rebound slide on all sides with a hard flat stone, and the sticking still occurs. That is why I need to know what weight your rebound spring is compared to others, in order to fine tune my trigger. Because I can't make that comparison, I am going to Wolff Springs instead of your kit in the 432PD. Then again, you probably don't want me mixing and matching springs in or to your kit for understandable reasons.

Thanks for the info Scott. Now, if you'd just lst a price on your site so I could try them. I typed "buy it now" and nothing is happening.

Did anybody try to cut off some of the original trigger sprig to lighten the pull ??

FWIW, I have the Apex kit in my 640, and IMHO, it made a *huge* difference over the stock trigger. Nothing but 100% reliable ignition, and much, much smoother. I also have noticed just a bit of "sponginess" on the trigger return, but it is smoothing out well with use.

That said, I also just installed the same kit in my M63 3" (22LR). The Apex extended firing pin, IMO, is too sharp for rimfire... it wants to "puncture" the rim of the brass instead of smacking it, causing about 30% FTF issues, even in SA across a range of ammo brands. I went back to the stock S&W firing pin, keeping the Apex springs in place, and voila - 100% ignition in DA. I suppose I could have slightly filed down the tip of the Apex extended firing pin, but that would have given me nearly the same length as the stock S&W firing pin.

I just installed my J frame Apex Tactical kit in a Model 60 .357 Magnum. I too noticed the rebound spring just a little mushy causing a short reset sometimes. I may try one of my Wolff or Wilson Combat rebound springs to see if I get a more positive reset. But overall a much better feel than factory S&W.

Just a quick note here. The J-Frame hit is not specified for use in Rimfire J-Frames. The product description specifically says "Works with all modern centerfire J-Frame revolvers with the frame mounted firing pin." We know the sharper tip pins will puncture a Rimfire cartridge and don't recommend our pin for that reason.

For Rimfire J-Frames I use the factory springs from a Centerfire J-frame. The springs in the Rimfire J-frame are heavier than those in the Centerfire and I've found that they tend to work very reliably.

We've found that with a bit of polishing or use the hitch you're finding in the reset goes away. It's typically caused by the sharp corners on the rebound slide and hammer intersections.

Ahh, very good. And indeed, I just looked at the back of the Apex packaging, and it DOES specifically state "centerfire J-frames..." A quick note here that on Midway, where I ordered my kits, it shows the M63 as being supported in the product description.

Good to know, but a bit late I guess, that the stock J-frame springs would have worked well in the M63. As it stands now, simply going back to the factory S&W firing pin has done the trick.

Thank you for your reply!

Thanks for the feedback, I'll make sure we send the info to Midway about the description and ask them to update it.

Scott

Thanks. I did a full stoning and polish. I think after a few range trips this rebound spring issue will disappear. Even though all touching parts are polished, sometimes a bedding in is necessary for the final touch.
I love the way this Apex kit feels. I'm able to stay right on target throughout the dry firing drill. Nice!

Thanks for the info Scott. I watched the disassembly and assembly videos at Midway. I ordered 2 J frame kits to try out. 1 for a 638 and another fro one of my many J frames. The 649 is listed as on of the J frames this kit can be used for. Does it matter that it is the 649-3 357 magnum?

Mike

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John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

I tried the dry firing exercise with snap-caps as noted in other threads but still didn't like the heavy trigger pull of my Model 60 Pro Series, so...

Installed an Apex kit last night and polished the block holding the trigger return spring per the video on their website with an ultra-fine Arkansas stone. I was extremely impressed by the outcome and noticed a significant improvement in smoothness from this minor activity, as well as a slightly lighter trigger pull which will make the gun much more enjoyable to shoot.

I'll follow the same process with my Model 640 at some point and will look back at this thread when my Model 63 arrives to make the necessary adjustments.

Thanks for all the great comments!