Which is more powerful .357 Magnum or .45ACP?

I have this posted in this section because I wouldn't try some of the hotter ammo in the older guns.

I'm trying to figure out overall which is the more powerful round. I carry both often. Now I know that some have been able to manufacturer .45ACP 185gr at 616 FT/Lbs of energy out of a 5" 1911- which is reaching 10mm ballistics. The same company however produces a .357 magnum 125gr round that yields 728 Ft/lbs out of a 5" barreled revolver, 710 Ft/lbs out of a 4" barreled revolver, and a lowly 563 ft/lbs out of a measly 1 7/8" barreled revolver. The last one being so low that it's hardly worth noting but it does produce over TWICE the energy of most .38 +P rounds.

Those numbers seem pretty impressive and one would wonder why then carry the .45ACP 1911 over say a nice 686? Most gun fights are three rounds, three seconds, at three yards. If you need to reload your magnum- I've found moonclips to be pretty fast with enough practice. Now I'm looking at some of the offerings from Smith for a Lightweight carry magnum with a feasible barrel lengths and full length extractor as there really isn't much in that offering. I would in all honesty rather carry a lightweight full size revolver over a 1911. I do have a 586 L Comp and a 686+ but both are a little heavy.


C77

I carry the same calibers. While muzzle energy is a good measure of "power", there are other factors. I can remember when the 357 was introduced and FMJ pointed rounds carried by the NY State Police for their ability to disable a car by penetrating the engine block. We all know both rounds will get the job done. If I knew I was to be in a close range 3 round shootout, I would probably pick my 45acp Colt Defender. On the other hand, some situations could favor the flatter shooting, higher penetrating 357 round. In the day as they say, I favored the 357 for rural settings and the 45 for urban and indoor application. Many opinions here I am sure.

In terms of 'which is better at killing a human', I don't think you will find a measurable difference between a .45 acp & .357. The 45 makes a somewhat larger diameter hole, although there is dispute about how much larger. The 357 penetrates deeper, but humans are normally shot in a location that doesn't require 20" of penetration. Remember, ballistic charts and ft-lbs don't kill. Wounds that hit something vital do.

What is enough? I prefer to carry my 7-shot 686 3", but that is because I can shoot it better than I can my 60LS. Arizona doesn't have strict laws on carry - quite the contrary - so I don't have to worry about deep concealment. I tend to think of 'discrete carry' rather than concealed. Also, most of my carry is done for 1-2 hours, with a lot of it in a car. Other states and other needs would drive me to use the 60LS...with 38+p since I find the 60LS with small grips a pain to shoot well with full power 357 loads. A pain to shoot, period, unless I go to 38+p. With modern ammo, a 38+p will give 12-14" of penetration with OK expansion. 45 acp would give about the same amount of penetration with a slightly bigger hole.

In some environments, more rounds may be good. If so, the semi-automatics are great. I just hate semi-autos, so I don't practice with them and so I don't carry them.

The only time I pulled a gun was 30 years ago. I was returning from a hike, and 8 guys started to fan out around me at my car. I had a 6 shot 22 with me, and they decided that was enough...and no one was shot. But I had fired a lot of rounds with that 22, and was confident the closest attacker would take a shot in the face - and maybe that confidence showed. And no one wanted to try a shot in the face, even with a 22...

My perspective? Find a gun that fits you well, that is instinctive to use, and that you love to shoot. Find a rig that allows you to carry it, and do so. If I was a bad guy, a fellow who knew, loved, and practiced with a 5 shot 38 would scare me far more than someone with ANY gun they had to think about how to use.

Oh...and most gunfights involve panic. The more one practices, and the more scenarios one has thought out in advance, the less one will panic. I plan on my gunfights - which hopefully will never happen - involving a string of one shots. The other guy gets to shoot back, so I figure shoot & move. When ready, shoot & move again. If we're too close to shoot & move, shove the barrel in his belly pointed up and shoot until empty.

What I figured would be the ultimate carry would be a 7 shot, L Frame, Scandium with a 4" barrel, full length extractor rod and cut for moon clips. The steel/stainless guns in similar size (I have two) are great for house duty or run around in the car duty but not everyday carry. I don't mind packing a large frame pistol or revolver except during the summer. The shorter length barreled revolvers generally are more difficult to reload quickly given the shorter extractor rod and ballistically don't offer that much more over a much easier to reload small framed auto using +P's. Be it say an MP360 versus a Kahr PM9 etc.

My main carry for now seems to be a Wiley Clapp commander with extra power springs and some hot loaded 185gr. A decent compromise of lightweight, capacity, and power. However I would feel much more confident with a wheel gun in .357 given the slightly flatter shooting capability and better accuracy. Again, seeking one if offered with a little additional capacity over a standard six, alloy lightweight L-Frame, and full length extractor rod, most importantly- a barrel length over 3" to get the full potential of the round. The TRR8 is an impressive piece but a little large for carry as is the older version of the MPR8. The mountlight 386SC was a great design but the extractor is to short for fast reloads and with a titanium cylinder- limited in my estimation. Same as the limits on the Night Guard series that would have had real potential but they dropped the ball with the shorty barrels and extractors. Maybe we can expect something in the coming years; mid L frame lightweight alloy "high capacity" revolver with a true combat length barrel. Maybe a NightGuard with an SSR barrel?


C77

A heavier bullet at low velocity is what does the job, not just the velocity so either the standard pressure 158 gr 357 magnum or a standard pressure 230 gr .45 should do the job just fine.


overpowered ammo like +p is a surefired way to destroy a gun regarless of the construction of the frame and probably would wreck the hell out of your hand and one of those wonderframe .357 magnums they make nowadays so dont use that for god sakes.

if your looking for a good .45 or a .357 for carry go for a colt alloy framed commander or the old model 19 but only use 158 gr bullets in it.

and if your still worried about it just use hollowpoints or semi wadcutters or something close to the semi's with the .45, basically anything but pure ball ammo and actually they used to say everything falls to ball with the .45 but I think thats probably what also led to the failure to stops with the 9mm and .38 special that I've read about from the past.

as for stopping power wise, either would do the job but I'm weary of anything under a 147 gr period or anything that's about the same diameter as a 9mm like the .38 special or the .357.

but thats probably more this stopping power BS wars wearing me down more than anything else, along with the actual factual report of the .38 failing to stop some mean mother hubber on drugs that was coming after the cop Elmer Keith was hanging around with in his book Six Guns


and I'm very weary of the 686, never liked the looks of it, I dont trust it and will never trust it after learning thats the one that locked up on my father in 82' or 83 with the first 6 rounds out of a brand new gun he put through it at a range.

I'd go for a 27, 19 or the stainless variants of them the 627 and the 66 over it instead of that one anyday.

Marshall and Sanow wrote a book on the subject of one shot stops among other things. The 125 grn .357 mag had the highest rating / score. The 185 grn +P a close second in .45 acp.

The .357 is usaully used in a revolver, the .45 acp usaully in an automatic. You can decide for yourself what platform you prefer, they both have advantages and disadvantages of coures.

They both work. How good are YOU?

I used to depend on the .45 auto but now I am disabled and depend on a Colt Detective in .38 spcl. I think it'll suffice.

And there are those in the wounding/ballistics world that have major issues with that book.

Centurian77 said:

Those numbers seem pretty impressive and one would wonder why then carry the .45ACP 1911 over say a nice 686?

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Because the 1911 has a larger capacity, is faster to reload, is easier to shoot quickly (due to the short trigger stroke), and is thinner and easier to conceal.

Of course, 1911s have some disadvantages as well, in particular being less reliable than a good revolver.

I carry my model 66 occasionally and feel well-armed when I do so. But I compete with both my 66 and 1911 and am still quite a bit faster all around with my 1911s. YMMV.

In an informative article at Personal Defense Ammunition | Ballistics 101 the author says that there are .357 rounds that are good for both personal defense and hunting, but I'd like to know what those specifically are.

I live on a little bit of land next to pastures and fields, we've had coyote issues since my German Shepherd died this Spring, and I like Federal Premium Personal Defense Ammunition 357 Magnum 158 Grain Hydra-Shok Jacketed Hollow Point as a rural all purpose. But it's hard to find, and so in my .357 8 shot I have Federal Premium Vital-Shok Ammunition .357 180 Grain. However, the last time I used the weapon on our land, it was .38 cci no. 9 shot against a skunk .

I used both and love the 1911 but there is a lot less to go wrong with a revolver. No feed jams or stove pipes to worry about. "no bang" then just pull the trigger again. A good 627 (8 shot 357) is hard to beat.

IMHO: Marshall and Sanow are bogus. There are too many variables involved for anyone to look at street records and say, "This caliber in this weight is tops!"

Book Review: Handgun Stopping Power - The Definitive Study

Nor is looking at 100 year records worth much. The ammo available now is vastly superior to what what available 100 years ago.

The 45 vs 38 thing came from the Moro war. That pitted a .38 Long Colt against the 45 acp. It used a 150 grain bullet moving at 770 fps with roughly 200 ft lbs of energy. Also, "Colt retained the single-diameter charge hole, so the bullet was grossly undersize as it traveled through the chamber throat. It was supposed to expand in the throat and be "swaged down," or reduced again in diameter, as it entered the barrel, but expanded unevenly producing poor accuracy."

.38 Long Colt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So a low quality bullet from a poorly designed gun with 200 ft/lbs of energy is not comparable to a very well designed bullet like Buffalo Bore uses in 38+P, with a 158 grain bullet moving at 1000 fps and 350 ft lbs of energy. Buffalo Bore says "This bullet will mushroom violently on impact and will penetrate roughly 14 inches in human flesh." I don't doubt them. Their regular .38, non +p ammo gives 14 inches, with smaller diameter:

Buffalo Bore 158gr (non +P) SWC-HC

Buffalo Bore 125gr Speer Low Velocity JHC

And 14 inches of penetration (and 350 ft/lbs) is a couple of inches greater penetration than a .45ACP Speer Gold Dot 200gr + provided:

200 grain Speer Gold Dot +P

while providing almost as much energy.

Would I prefer a 45 acp over a regular pressure 38? Yes. The 38 ammo above gave 235 ft lbs vs 350 for +p, and is at the bottom end of what I would consider acceptable self defense ammo - all other things being equal.

Also, manufacturers now do a much better job of matching bullet construction to power. They don't use hard bullets with low power, or soft bullets with high power. Their ammo is tested in normal sized guns (no 8" standard), and will perform more consistently than 38 ammo from Elmer Keith's day.

If anyone knows of any scientific data that shows a 45 acp outperforms a 38+P at self defense, I'd love to see it. Hunters are probably the best source of information on caliber effectiveness, and I'm sure most would prefer 45 acp to 38+P - but I'd love to see some side by side comparisons!

If I limit myself to the 60LS, I use Buffalo Bore's 38+P. For my 686+, I use 357 ammo at medium power. If I carry my Ruger Alaskan, it has 44 mag ammo in it - but I've seen no evidence it will stop anyone any better than a good 38+P. My guess is that it would, IF I shoot it with equal accuracy and hit the same spot. Big if, in my case.

And no, using +P ammo in modern guns won't hurt them. With modern guns and modern ammo, a good rule of thumb is that if your hand can handle it, so will the gun. Of course, if you carry an 1890 production .38 Long Colt...well, then it is time to switch to a .45!

Also, I'm not in any way slamming the 45 acp. It has a big bullet giving good penetration with moderate recoil - what is not to like? But in a revolver, it comes at the cost of size. I'd LOVE for someone to make a 686/Ruger GP100 5 shot in 45 acp...but I'm still waiting.

Kavinsky said:

overpowered ammo like +p is a surefired way to destroy a gun regarless of the construction of the frame and probably would wreck the hell out of your hand and one of those wonderframe .357 magnums they make nowadays so dont use that for god sakes.

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Geeze, are you really serious? .357s wrecking your hand? Lots of people in addition to me shoot .500 Mags w/o issues. Ruger GP100s will shoot so much +P, you'll grow old before you loosen one up.

On to the original topic. Both .45ACP and .357 Mag are excellent rounds. The .357 has a flatter trajectory, more energy and better barrier penetration. You're well armed with either. Don

This is an excellent read on the subject as I imagine it's been posted here before. Discussing various rounds on they perform once they enter the body. The author states flat out that he loves .45acp and .357 magnum as the best all around body droppers.

http://www.commonfolkusingcommonsense.com/files/terminal_ballistics_as_viewed_in_a_morgue.pdf


Now as far as the subject at hand, which to use- specifically, which revolver or which .45. We can all agree it comes down to preference. I already have my preferred .45, an alloy framed commander, however I'm still looking for a seven shot alloy framed revolver with a combat length barrel and full length extractor. My suggestions to S&W went over like a ton of bricks as they do not offer, nor ever have offered a something as outlined earlier. The reps were suggesting the TRR8 but again for my preference, L frame alloy seven shot with full length extractor and combat length barrel would be max for carry.

Finally, I understand feeding any auto or revolver a steady diet of +P ammo isn't good. I just prefer to carry +P ammo when I can.


C77

You can analyze it to no end, either one placed properly will easily kill a human. The 357 has more case capacity so more powder means more power. The bullets don't care if they come out of a revolver or autoloader. There is no correct answer just personal preference.

It all boils down to whether you would prefer to step out in front of a Corvette doing 120mph or a Mack truck doing 60. Neither one is going to be able to stop. End result will be the same.

I was under the impression, this question was answered about 45 years ago -- with the .41 magnum -- but we just did not listen.

.357 and .45 represent two ways of skinning a cat. Either way, you'll get the cat skint.

CGT4570:
What a great analogy!

+1 to those who said 'preference'.

You have yours. I have mine.

I carry both frequently. Most typically my SP101 but last year I bought Taurus Mil Pro .45 that almost fits in the same envelope so I can pocket carry it if my pants are loose enough.

I tend to the .357 when I'm out somewhere the shots might get long (or just in a revolver mood which is most of the time).

I lean to the .45 when I'll be in close quarters and/or low light. Situations where the .357s flash and blast are negatives. I can also reload the bottom feeder faster than the revolver (rarely a concern in a typical self defense situation). I also lean to the mass=penetration theory and prefer the .45 when the weather gets cold and clothing gets thick. You also have the bonus of it being a big hole should clothing cause a failure to expand.

These are not hard and fast rules and I'll swap either in to the other's situation out of convienience or necessity.

I'm very blessed to have a wide and diverse set of carry options. I have a pocket .380 for when I need to be really discrete or the weather here in the South gets really sticky. I also own several high-cap 9s now and carry them from time to time. I even own full size service .45s and .357s that might get carried from time to time.