I took my, new to me, used, 19-3 to the range today for the first time.
On my first round of six I had two misfires. I waited, unloaded and immediately noticed that the primers weren't heavily dented when compared to my wife's model 60 which was shooting the same ammunition, .38 special wadcutters.
I reloaded and had one misfire in the next round.
Again the model 60 continued to cycle the same ammo without a hickup.
Closer inspection of the miss fire rounds revealed the primers to be lightly dented compared to those fired by the model 60 which put a fairly distinct 'punch' in the center of the primer. Actually all of them seemed to be lightly touched, both fired and misfired.

I then moved to .357 ammo, in this case Magtech 158 gr. SJSP.
Interetingly I had no miss fires but the shells wouldn't eject.
I had to bang the ejector rod on the bench to get the shells to eject from the cylinder.
I then loaded the Magnum ammo in the model 60. It cycled all five and ejected them easily.
I did this again with both guns and had the same results each time. No miss fires but they wouldn't eject from the 19 without a good bang on the bench.

Any and all input/ideas and or direction would be appreciated.

Mods, if this is in the wrong section please move. I am new to the forum and still finding my way around here.


Full Power .357

Light primer strikes, check to make sure the strain screw is fully tightened down. BTW, that is the screw on the lower front of the grip frame and some grip may cover it. If you find it's fully tight, next step is to order another strain screw. If that doesn't fix the problem you may have to replace the mainspring.

Difficulty chambering 357 Magnums and difficult extraction, most likely you left a carbon ring in the chambers with that 38 spl. I've found that when this happens 2 or 3 cylinders of the Magnums will pulverize that carbon and the problem will go away.

I will check that screw tonight. Thank you.
The other thing you mention, about the gas ring, makes sense except for the fact that the model sixty was also going from .38 special to magnums without the same issue.

OK, the screw, located at the base of the front grip strap(?) excuse my lack of anatomical nomenclature), the strain screw, was fully tight. I had to remove the grips and it is the screw that touches the spring, right?
Also, why would it have successfully have fired ALL of the Magnum rounds? I futher inspected the Magnum cases and they show a deeper primer strike than the .38 specials.

Were you using the same 38 caliber ammo in both guns. I ask because I've found Winchester White Box to be the most problematic for this issue.

The other possibility is poor finish on your model 19 but I'd try a different ammo before considering honing the chambers, if you make them oversize they'll stay oversize until you get a new cylinder.

BTW, I have a simple rule when approaching something like chamber finish, that is to try everything else before removing steel from a machined surface. As for why, I've just never been able to get my material putter backer working.

Yes, exact same ammo. Both guns were cleaned prior to going to the range.

You don't mention if the two revolvers were being fired single or double action.

Both were fired double and single. How does this affect outcomes?

The hammer drops with much more force in single action than in double action. Sometimes light strikes will occur in double action but not in single in the same gun using the same rounds.

One thing was not mentioned here. Fired primers will ALWAYS have a deeper indent than those that failed to fire. During the ignition phase, the firing pin drives the case forward absorbing some of the blow. When the cartridge fires, the pressure drives the case backwards in the chamber against the firing pin deepening the "dent".

Failure to fire is generally caused by someone using a lighter mainspring than stock (a bit lighter is fine, too much is NOT). Also, as has been mentioned, some shorten the mainspring tension screw for a lighter pull (this also can be overdone).

Mainsprings are cheap. Buy a new mainspring and a new strain screw and chances are your misfires will be old news.

Difficult extraction can be simply dirty chambers. It is not good practice to fire .357 magnums AFTER firing .38 Specials without cleaning. The carbon ring around the mouth of the .38 Specials can make extraction difficult (different guns react differently). That carbon ring can also raise pressures - sometimes significantly as there is diminished room for the case mouth to expand and release the bullet.

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

I see, I didn't know this.

So this is definately taking the shape of a spring/screw function issue with regard to the misfires.
I am still not seeing how the model 60 escaped the same demise with regard to case ejection since it was also fired in the same sequence, that being .38 specials first and then the .357 mags second?
Could it be that the Model 19 has had many more rounds put through it leading to a 'buildup' of some sort in the cylinder chambers whereas the model 60, having maybe 500 rounds lifetime total, does not have this 'buildup'?
The model 19 was cleaned prior to shooting but the cylinder chambers probably aren't as smooth as those of the model 60 at the distal/barrel end.

Here's a thought regarding difficult extraction. Back in 1972, I bought a new 4" Model 19 and fed it a diet of mostly .38 Special wadcutters but also its fair share of hot .357s as well. I cleaned it well after every session but after a few months, extraction became sticky, then painful to the hand and finally impossible without a punch and mallet. I returned the gun to Smith & Wesson and they replaced the cylinder, saying that the chambers were no longer round.

A few months later, the same condition returned. Smith & Wesson replaced the cylinder a second time but returned the gun with a letter saying that they would not replace it again under warranty and advising me to use magnum loads sparingly. I complied with their instructions and never had the problem again.

For what it's worth...

Ed

that's what i like about this forum. never heard of such a thing as this, but i am willing to listen and learn.

The light primer strike problem is probably the main spring and strain screw as others have said and they should be replaced. The extraction problem is probably build up in the cylinders caused by shooting a lot of shorter 38 special rounds. The first thing to do for the extraction problem is to really clean the cylinder chambers until they are spotless to see if that solves the problem.

The difference between the two revolvers in terms of primer strike is that one pistol is in excellent shape and the other has a mechanical problem and the problem is not the ammo.

If the ammo was reloads I would have guessed that the primers would have been CCI because they make really hard primers and lots of people that reload have had some problems with them.

Is there any chance you could scan and post that letter here? There is always the back and forth about S&W saying something to the effect of carry magnums and practice with specials. But still to this day you have to wear the nomex suit to not be burned by the coming flame war from such a statement.

I hear you about the primer/reload issues as this was the first thing I thought of. My brother, father and I reloaded heavily in the late 70s and we frequently had similar 'issues'. In fact I had to remind myself yesterday that I was shooting factory ammo and that I had a comparison gun shadowing the '19'.

I will clean the cylinder again, this time with a brass brush after a good soak in 'accubore'. Before I went to the gange both cylinders were cleaned with a nylon brush and 'accubore' but neither was 'soaked'.

QUOTE=AveragEd;136200404]Here's a thought regarding difficult extraction. Back in 1972, I bought a new 4" Model 19 and fed it a diet of mostly .38 Special wadcutters but also its fair share of hot .357s as well. I cleaned it well after every session but after a few months, extraction became sticky, then painful to the hand and finally impossible without a punch and mallet. I returned the gun to Smith & Wesson and they replaced the cylinder, saying that the chambers were no longer round.

A few months later, the same condition returned. Smith & Wesson replaced the cylinder a second time but returned the gun with a letter saying that they would not replace it again under warranty and advising me to use magnum loads sparingly. I complied with their instructions and never had the problem again.

For what it's worth...

Ed[/QUOTE]

That is an interesting story to say the least.

I bought this gun intending to stick with 'factory only' magnums due to the forcing cone 'issue' I have read about.

That being said I guess I was lead to believe that even that wouldn't be an issue if one stuck to factory loads?
I wonder if anyone else has had this problem with a model 19?

Pepper, your gun, your choice. But my understanding is that the model 19 was meant to shoot mostly .38 Spl and .357 Mag very sparingly.

My 19-3 gets a steady diet of light .38 Spl handloads only and is cleaned till the chambers sparkle after each range trip.

I am taking no chances.

I think that Dale's pretty much nailed it. A few years ago I bought a used 617 and discovered that I would get light strikes on about one out of every five or six rounds. I replaced the main spring with a factory weight spring and the problem disappeared instantly.

As for the sticky extraction, I agree that carbon fouling could be the problem. Shine a flashlight through the rear of the chambers and examine them from the front. Do you see a black ring in all or most of the chambers? That would be the product of firing .38s through the gun without cleaning it effectively.

The solution is simple. Get an oversized brush -- in .40 caliber or even in .45. Brush each chamber thoroughly with a DRY brush. You may encounter a great deal of resistance in inserting the brush. If you can't brush back and forth, rotate the brush as if you were using a drill bit. You should turn the brush 20-30 full rotations for each chamber. Brushing should become easier as the carbon deposits erode. After brushing, check again with a flashlight. If the rings are still present, brush again. Eventually, the rings will disappear. Then finish the job by swabbing out each chamber with a patch soaked in a good solvent. I like Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber, but there are a lot of good solvents on the market.

I clean my .357s after each trip to the range and I am a fanatic about brushing out the carbon rings when I fire .38s from them. If you brush after every 100 rounds the buildup will not be significant and the brushing can be done quickly and easily.

The only thing I would add to Stevieboy's advice is to use the 40 cal. BRASS brush, but to chuck it in a drill running at SLOW speed and carefully run it through each charging hole. I also like to use a piece of lead-away cloth as a patch to finish cleaning the barrel and charging holes.

__________________
Always Stay Strong!

Unfortunately, I no longer have the letter - or the gun, for that matter. We've moved twice since the gun was last repaired by S&W and I sold the gun when I saved up enough to buy a new Python so I wouldn't have to worry about what I shot in a revolver rollmarked "S&W 357 Magnum".

When the L-frame Smiths came along, I returned to the fold. I still love K-frames, have three Model 66s and restrict them to .38 Special target loads.

Ed

YOU need to learn more about Revolvers before you hurt yourself or someone else.



NEVER load up and shoot a used gun UNTIL you or someone else
who knows how has checked it for defects and poor lockup/timing/basic operation.

When you HAVE a problem you don't keep shooting OR BANG THE GUN
AGAINST SOMETHING TO FIX IT.

Please go to the gunsmithing section of the Forum and do some reading before something bad happens.................


.

I called S&W today, the mainspring is on back order and will ship out as soon as they get it.

I will give the cylinder a more thorough cleaning. I like the oversized dry brush on a low speed motor idea alot.
At this point I am re-thinking the whole 'Magnum' idea in this model.
Either way I will clean/scrub and test it again.

Thanks again everyone, great input and suggestions.

I totally agree with the posters that are stating the cylinder has to be hard cleaned, I know the original poster stated he cleaned the gun prior to going to the range, but ALL 357s, regardless of who makes them can build up a hardened filled line in front of the 38 spec cases being fired and if not properly cleaned this becomes hardened and hard to remove, He also stated the gun was new to him, I suspect the cylinder could have had such a buildup. The weak firing could easily be a weak or altered main/hammer spring or a filed down strain screw. There have been too many of the K, L, & N frame guns improperly altered by people trying to ease the trigger pull weight and the first thing they go for is the main/hammer spring and the screw. The hammer fall could also be slowed down by friction inside the gun or along the sides of the hammer as it falls into the frame, this could be detected by looking for wear spots on the visible areas of the hammer, and slowly working the action on an empty gun with the trigger fully reward and moving the hammer back and forth and checking for side play as well.

As far as these statements about the 19 itself, I spent 29 years in the Border Patrol and fired thousands of magnum rounds through the model 19s, I served as a range officer, and also in many levels of supervision. In those positions I was required to periodically inspect the guns carried by numerous agents. I only ever saw one 19 that had a crack in the forcing cone, in the early 80s we started carrying the L frames and I saw one of those cracked the same as the 19. During our 4 qualification shoots annually we shot wadcutters in the early 70s for the short range part of the course and full load magnums for the longer ranges, in the later 70s we switched to full load magnums for the 72 round course, I never saw extraction problems with these guns - If they were properly cleaned.

I currently own 7 K frames including 2 beloved model 19s, I also own one 686 and 3 other smith revolvers, I love working on the older smiths.

I also have three pythons that I have had for many years as well, I do like the pythons, especially their fantastic fit and finish but find the long hammer and trigger pull distracting at times.

I hope this does not sound too forward, I handled and carried these wonderfull smith and wesson revolvers for many years and I admit that I do have a passion for them.

__________________
Ron, USBP retired

Just a side note, the springs are readily available on other sites, ie: midwayusa.com, brownells.com, gunbroker.com, oh yes on ebay, and many other smith and wesson parts suppliers online.

With the gun already striking light I suggest you stay with a standard factory spring and not one of the aftermarket types designed to help smooth the action, The factory spring is usually available at reasonable prices at the locations previously mentioned.

Smith is often out of these parts because there has become a whole business out there reselling parts so a lot of these people order large numbers of parts at a time.

__________________
Ron, USBP retired

take some solvent and put in in all a cylinders and the barrel, wipe down the excess off of the gun that gets on the finish and let it sit for about 2 days and then scrub the cylinders and the barrel with a fresh bore brush for .357 magnum.

rinse and repeat till it stops sticking and clean under anything and everything in the cylinders with cuetips and toothpicks around the edges of the cylinders, with the missfires check the hammer to make sure its in good nick, if not the firing pin may need to be replaced, next up would be the main spring housing as someone may have screwed around with it like on this colt python hickok45 used a few months ago

Colt Python - YouTube

to get a better trigger pull out of it, yet screwed up its surefire ignition in the process with it, best bet if this is the case is to go to a gunsmith you trust to go through it who you know will do a good job with it.

Add a shim in front of the strain screw. Doesn't take very much, spent primer will often work. Save the day at the range or while waiting for parts.

I use bronze chamber brushes from Brownells. They are a bit bigger than bore brushes. I chuck them in a 1/4" drill and work until the chambers are really clean. A nylon brush won't even start to clean some of those crud rings. I have discovered, by shooting lots of 130 grain ammo that Federal leaves less of a ring, and much easier to clean that either Winchester or Remington.

__________________
Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

As far as the misfires are concerned most of the replies have addressed the issue, suggesting the strain screw or mainspring are the source of the problem. The extraction problem, however, may not be so straightforward as dirty chambers. Of course, it is always important to clean out the ring formed by firing .38's in a .357, personally, I have only encountered difficulty when trying to insert .357 ammo in the cylinder and it is actually only a difference of an eighth of an inch. I would suggest that you examine the fired casings for scratches or other indications to isolate exactly where the problem is and then perhaps someone could better recommend a solution.

Good luck and let us know what you find out,
Steve

The first time I ran magnums through my new-to-me 28-2 I had the same extraction issues. Be prepared to do some scrubbing. Apparently the previous owner ran nothing but .38 and never bothered to clean the chambers. I used a brush on a drill motor. I soaked. I brushed. I soaked some more. I used a flared .357 case for a scraper.

Mind, it was my first S&W and I was a bit paranoid about ruining the finish with extended soaking but it took two days of work, off & on, before patches started coming back clean and my magnifying visor could spot no crud.

More great information and very much appreciated.

I did soak the chambers for approximately 24 hours with Accubore solvent, making sure it didn't get on any of the bluing.
Close inspection revealed that this didn't do much for the buildup that was now so clearly a "hardened filled line in front of the 38 spec cases .38 zone" of the chamber.

At this point I ended up chucking a .40 cal bronze brush in my drill motor and proceeded to clean each cylinder slowly and carefully as per above suggestions.

The chambers now appear uniform, without any sort of elevated line in the .38 zone.

My next step is to source a mainspring, the screw is on its way from S&W. I hadn't realized that these could be sourced outside of Smith so, again, thanks for that piece of infomation too.

I have a range trip planned for tomorrow and will give a full report once I am home and settled.

Good luck. You may find the strain screw alone may fix the problem. Shortening the screw is not an uncommon "po' boy's trigger job." So it could be tight but insufficient.

That's a great photo of the magnum fireball in the OP BTW.

Range Report.


Well I did make it to the range today and went straight to the Magnum rounds first.

Ejection issues were much better overall, at first. My first six rounds were all ejected with my palm and only slight drag.
The next round of six ejected with a little more resistance but still easily came out using my palm against the ejector rod.
Fast forward to the 4th round of six and things started getting harder to the point of having to use the bench rest against the ejector rod to get full ejection.
By the eighth round I was still having to use the table but it wasn't getting any harder per say.
At this point I moved to .38 special.
None of these ejected with my palm and all required the use of the table against the rod for full ejection.
In all cases above I only resorted to the table when pushing with my palm became painfull. Also, I only had to apply some pressure to get the shells to eject, rather than 'banging' against the table with the rod.

Overall I had a distinct improvement with the Magnums.
The .38 specials surprised me in that I am now having to use the table to eject them also.

All ammunition was the same as the original ammunition I used when I initially reported about this.

Also, intersetingly, I didn't experience one misfire today.

What do you guys think?

The next step, after another cleaning, is to try a different brand of ammo, just to see if Magtech didn't overcharge the amount of power in the cases. That SHOULDN'T happen, but anything is possible!

Also not addressed yet that I see is the M60 vs. M19 comparison.

It is possible that the M19 had much more original build up of crud in its chambers vs. your M60 specimen. Then again, you may have a problem with the M19's cylinder now being internally out of spec.

BTW, you local gun shop may have a S&W leaf spring already in stock. They are cheap and plentiful!

I won't address the extraction or failure to fire issues, that water is muddy enough, but exercise caution using the "bench" against the ejector rod. They are sometimes easily bent and difficult to straighten.
Check yours with the cylinder open and free to spin watch the knurled end of the ejector rod for runout as it revolves.
I have a 19 from the early 70's that has served me well in several roles and still performs flawlessly today after thousands of assorted rounds.

The model 60 was purchased new by me and has had a total of less than 500 rounds, mixed, special and Mags, through it thus far. It has been cleaned after each firing session.
The 19 was new to me, used and ,yes, had alot of buildup.
As before both guns were operated with the same ammo, as a comparison. The model 60 ended the day without issue.

I am going to swing by my friend's shop tonight and measure the chambers of the two guns, as a comparison.


Good point. I checked it and it spins straight.
When I have used the bench against the rod I have done my very best to keep the rod/cylinder perpendicular to the bench.

Well, I read through this post with interest, as I had recently had a similar experience with my 586; a fairly recent addition that shot .38s fine, didn't want to eject .357 cases after firing. Cleaning until spotless made no difference. Bit the bullet ( ha, ha ) and got out my chamber hone ( looks like a "porcupine" cylinder hone for engine work, sized for .38 -.357 chambers. Bought from Brownell's- must use it with special Flexhone oil ). Problem solved. All fired cases eject flawlessly. It was the only S&W .357 that I've had this problem with, and I have a few!

I dont know if this would really apply to the model 19 but......

I had the same problem on a high standard sentinel with it ejecting empties like that and found out that the person who had it originaly had really dry fired the hell out it and used .22 shorts in it instead of long rifle like your supposed to in it. damaging the metal of the cylinder as its a different kind of cylinder than the one used on the smith K22 I have

and unfortunately the gunsmith said the cylinder needed to be replaced for it because of that and it may be the case with yours as well, although like I said at this point its probably best to take it to a gunsmith you know who will do a good job with it as it may just be something in the clyinder like the ejection spring for the ejector rod is worn out or something along the lines of that

but at this point im drawing at straws as well as I frankly dont trust that gunsmith anymore as I know he doesnt double check his work and I get the feeling he's probably missed something obivious like he did with the other two, three actually or rather four if I count the slide fracture but I'd rather not get into that.

to say the least he's not getting anymore work from me ever again if I can help it.

More on the honing process please. Did you do a specific number of passes? How do you judge when you've gone far enough short of shooting the gun?

__________________
NRA Benefactor

Why mess around with this anymore? Send it to Frank at LSG Manufacturing. He's an authorized S&W armorer and the whole thing will be free, including shipping. Email him with the serial number and the problem. If you haven't cleaned the gun yet, don't. He'll email you a shipping label. His email is [email protected]. Great guy and fast turnaround.

A few thoughts here. One is that the 19-3 is old enough that it won't be covered by the S&W lifetime warranty unless they decide to do it simply to prove yet again that S&W has superb customer service. Basically, it's worth a call to inquire but don't expect that they will do warranty service on a revolvers made in the 70's under different ownership.

Second, sometimes a mild to moderate overcharge can cause bulged chambers in the cylinder. Unfortunately, the only solution for this problem is a new cylinder and that may be difficult to find, especially a recessed cylinder. To check for this you'll have to carefully measure the cylinder at various depths using snap gages and micrometers. If you don't know what snap gages are, talk to a machinist and he'll show you a set of spring loaded T's that can be locked with a knurled knob on the stem. Because modern rimmed casings provide a lot of additional "meat" at the base these bulges usually are found deeper in the chambers, say from 3/8 inch in to near the front of the chamber. What you should measure is a very slight taper from front of case to the rear opening of the cylinder. If you find the chamber gets larger as you check deeper, the chamber is bulged and you'll need a new cylinder.

Second thought pertains to the period when your 19-3 was made. People complain a lot about S&W Quality today and seem to have a bit of reverence for older revolvers produced during the Bangor Punta ownership. If they had actually been purchasing revolvers during the late Bangor Punta ownership they'd probably be running into traffic in frustration. There were times during this ownership when Quality was just awful. One recurring issue was poor surface finish in the chambers in the cylinders because Banog Punta wouldn't replace a reamer until it stopped cutting completely. Take a good close look at the surface finish in your chambers, if you see deep gouges honing the chambers may provide a solution. However, you do NOT want to go overboard with that honing, just do enough to solve your ejection issues and stop. In some cases trying to remove all traces of gouging from a dull reamers will only result in chambers that are oversize. I would take a very conservative approach and plan on multiple trips to the range. Start with 20-30 revolutions on each chamber, test for ejection, and then repeat until the ejection issues are resolved. Keep in mind, try as I might, I've never had any success in getting my "material putter backer" to work, so only remove what is needed and stop there.

Third thought. Never been really impressed with Magtech ammo. Also not real impressed with Winchester White Box. Ammo's that do impress me are American Eagle, Federal Champion, and Speer Lawman. I would suggest you try any of these 3 before doing anything else. Fact is that cruddy ammo will crud the chambers and cause problems, especially in an older gun that may have a bit of a finish challenge in the chambers.

BTW, Speer Lawman is the ammo that I find most impressive, however it's a bit spendy and VERY difficult to find in my area in 38 spl.. The Federal is every bit as clean shooting as the Lawman, just not quite as accurate as the Speer ammo.

It may be a lot simpler than honing the chambers. Of course honing the chambers will indirectly fix the problem but it is more than is necessary. The polish in the chambers of Smith & Wessons is not an issue, in my opinion, if you've ever looked in the chambers of a Ruger, you'll know what I mean (it looks like they have traction grooves). I have owned numerous revolvers that exhibited identical problems. All of them had or developed a burr in the chambers near the case head/extractor. I removed the cylinder, took out the extractor and cleaned just the edge of the chambers and where the extractor contacts the chamber only slightly with a "pointed hard arkansas stone" (I suspect that a small round swiss file would work also). It required so little that I didn't even need to touch up the blue in the chambers. I did this on at least two 29-2's a 57 and a couple of .22's, none have ever had an extraction issue since.

I hope this helps,
Steve

any update and what was the time period of the Bangor Punta ownership?

I was able to borrow a friends micrometer, he didn't have the snap gauges you mention, and measured the cylinder at the distal end and then compared that to the 'new' model 60.
The Model 19 measured .358 in three of the chambers, .357 in two and .359 in one.
As a comparison the Model 60 measured .351 in all the chambers.

I know this doesn't give the relative change at varying chamber depths that you mention but either way it is a significant difference.

I thought I would try the 'chamber hone', which should arrive any day now, that was also mentioned above since I was able to get a slight improvement overall after I cleaned the chambers using a brass brush on a drill motor.

It has been a while, I know.

I went to the range today with the model 19 and had success, more or less.
My next step in this 'project' was to use a cylinder hone in the chambers.
After acquiring the hone from Brownells, some time before holiday madness took over my free time, I proceeded to hone each chamber at slow rpm, keeping an even in/out pace. About how one would go at honing the cylinders in an engine. I did this such that each cylinder had approximately 30 degree hatch marks relative to one another.

So, when I got to the range the first round of six ejected with a hint of drag. I was still able to push them out no problem however.

The next 6 came out easier than the first.
And that was how it went. All subsequent rounds ejected with minor to no drag.
I wish they had ejected without any drag at all but considering where I started I am happy with the result.
The ammo was the same as I had used before, Magtech, .357Mag for a total of 50 rounds.

I have acquired a few other 357s since the initial post and will probably move my Magnum dietary needs over to those guns.


Thanks again to everyone that offered ideas and constructive suggestions.