Admin Edit-
I'm impressed. This thread has 13 posts, and is a very reasonable.
My compliments.
This subject has validity and I have no problem with reasonable discussion.
Enjoy the thread as long as it stays that way.
Lee J
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This is not a post designed for starting a flame war or debate........I am well aware that many people hate the Internal Lock and I am not looking for an "I hate the IL" thread.

I have serious questions and was looking for a general consensus.......

Does anyone actually use the lock? I do, I live in a house with 2 young children, and when I need to put my 64-7 away for a short period of time, without locking it up in the safe i.e. home for a couple hours, taking a shower and running back out, etc. I make use of the IL on the unloaded gun.

I unload the revolver, put the rounds somewhere else, keep my speed strips in the same spot as the rounds in a locked drawer, and lock the gun with the IL for "extra" safety. Sure, I dislike the IL as much as anyone else, but I figure if it's there, why not use it. In the .0001% chance a kid finds one of my .38's, puts it in the 64-7 that's hidden in the house in a bag 7 feet up on a shelf, the gun still won't fire. When I am home for the day, I lock the gun up in a safe. But the IL does serve a purpose. Again, I have plenty of non-IL S&W's but use the 64-7 often as a carry piece, and might as well make use of the lock.

I won't get into any "what if" or legality questions here, I was also wondering about using guns with removed or de-activated IL's as CC and HD guns, but opinions differ wildly on this so I won't get into that here.

There was a time when I would have used the IL, but it was many years before S&W or even Taurus made one. I would have used it when hanging up my overcoat when visiting my parents' house (after a quick visit to the little boys' room to engage the lock). Nowadays, I have better ways of carrying concealed and don't have to disarm.

My state has pretty strict laws on storage, and while I do not care for the state's imposing their slightly unreasonable standards on other folks, I actually happen to agree with the state's standards for my own situation. In fact, I'm just barely stricter. The IL does not meet state standards.

If you check the cylinder for full rotation every time you load the gun, you will not accidentally leave the gun locked.

I'm of a different mind. I taught my kid and now grandkids to respect firearms. I took the curiosity factor away by taking them shooting at a very early age. My daughter shot her first .22 when she was two years old. Of course, she was in my lap and I had hold of the gun. I took her a few times after that, but she never quite got into it so to speak. My grandson on the other hand, took to like a duck to water. Now he's 21 and an Eagle Scout. That's not to say I acted foolishly and left loaded guns all over the house. The law in Florida doesn't prohibit loaded guns in the house, but it does provide for severe sanctions if a kid under 16 is involved with a shooting.

In today's world, I'd have to reconsider my tactics if there were small children around. So, on that note, I have no need for a lock. I regret having to pay for it though.

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NRA Benefactor

There are much better ways of securing the gun at your home than using the lock. The single gun "safe" that can be opened by combination buttons on top is probably the best way in my opinion.

After researching the subject, I have come to the conclusion that the factory lock is not reliable and should not be trusted on a self defense gun.

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Centennial Every Day

If a gun isn't holstered on my person, it's locked in my safe. I have never engaged a firearm's internal lock. I never leave firearms unattended, and I would sooner take a moment to secure the revolver in my safe than engage its internal lock.

I taught my son some very important gun-safety rules. As a result, he's very respectful of firearms and knows what to do if he's at a friend's house and sees a firearm sitting out. We practice the rules all the time, at home and at the gun shops, and the rules apply whether he sees something that looks a real gun or a toy.

I've never raised my voice when discussing firearms with him, and I've never discouraged his curiosity in them. In other words, all of our interactions related to guns and gun safety have been very positive. When he said he wanted to see some shooting, I took him to an indoor range and let him watch from behind the bulletproof windows. He got to see what he wanted. Minutes later, he told me he was bored.

I let him look in the display cases at the gun shop and pick out the guns he thinks look cool. I ask the folks behind the counter to take out the ones he likes, everyone checks to make sure they're unloaded, and then I hold the guns in my hand, one at a time, to let him see them up close. He's still a bit young to handle them confidently, and I won't risk having guns that don't belong to me being damaged. His curiosity is satisfied, and checking out each gun comes at the price of having to recite and act out the gun-safety rules I've taught him each time.

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Calmer than you are.

If one truly needs an internal lock to keep ones handgun secure from children, or any other party, perhaps one should reconsider the entire concept of gun ownership. Guns should always be secured/stored around children. In most states, including NC there are laws in place to enforce this - and punish those who don't - whos irresponsibility often causes tradgedies.

Myself and my siblings grew up in a home full of firearms - some loaded. We didn't touch any of them - without permission - and the loaded ones were secured in a safe. I used my handcuffs, run through the trigger guard and behind the hammer for years. S&W then included a cable lock and later a Masterlock trigger lock with my purchases. That worked fine if one didn't own a safe....or handcuffs.

Ammunition is ALWAYS stored seperately and under lock and key. I store mine in steel fire safe boxes.

I think the internal lock and many of the "product safety" devices foisted upon the buying public are nothing more than physical indicators of the nanny state that liberals love so well.

Won't be foisted upon me though. I don't buy their products.

As far as legal problems for removing the lock, I don't see it. By the manufacturers own admission this idiotic device is not a "safety", it is a "safe storage device", albeit one operated by a universal key. More "innovative" genious there.

A good shoot is a good shoot. Sure lawyers and over zealous prosecutors abound. But being S&W made nice lock free revolvers in the past, I think you have a prima facia case that this poorly designed lock was a liability on a self defense gun and you wisely removed it. Your rationale for buying such a gun in the first place is what I would question. My 0.02 Regards 18DAI

No disrespect Photoman, I value your opinion greatly. Is there a thread here that might begin to quantify actual problems with the locks. IIRC, I've seen one thread or an entry in someone else thread that said they had a failure of some sort.

Or is this a case of "well my second cousin twice removed once heard of a guy that was related to another guy that hear about someone else that had some sort of problem".

Maybe I'll start a poll.

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NRA Benefactor

Tyrod, you better read FL Statute 790.174 again.
The minor doesn't have to be involved in a shooting.

If a minor (16) is not your child under your supervision or a parent of any other child is not present under their supervision is in your house, your guns must be secured in a locked box or container.

When my minor grandkids visit, all my guns are unloaded and locked in the safe. Such a minor inconvenience.

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Dick

I stand corrected about the exact verbage of the law. However, I'm pretty sure no one has ever been prosecuted under the law either.

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NRA Benefactor

I thought long and hard about this before posting.

We raised 5 wonderful kids. With both of us in law enforcement, (me with the County and her with the City)there were always loaded weapons in the house.

We lived in a fairly rural area so firearms were not uncommon.
They were never ever left out in the open, unless carried on our person.

The rest, along with the ammo was locked in the safe. All of kids were taught firearms safety from a very early age. They all had shooting instruction starting around 7 or 8 years old.

They grew up learning to be responsible. And they followed the rules of the house.

1. If you wish to see a firearm, you come to us first.

2. When your friends are here, guns are not part of that. You do not talk about it with your friends or let anyone else know about what we do in our home.

3. The one thing you can never take back is from the moment you pull the trigger.

They all grew into fine adults. And all of them own their own guns now.

As times have changed they take a more active approach to securing the guns they have.

As they should, but they all remember the lessons and Dad's and Mom's duty rigs hanging up in our bedroom.

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Take your time..quickly.

I have been shooting and carrying a revolver for self defense for 30 years, and I have to admit I am unfamiliar with the full rotation test when loading. Could you please explain how this is done?

Thanks

I have to agree with others. when I come into the house the gun stays in the holster. If I have to unholster, I put it in the safe. I just think that I would always be thinking, "Did I lock it or unlock it.?" I dont want to think about that when I stake my life on it. I dont own any lock guns, just preference for me......

How is this any different than running a cable lock through the cylinder opening?

In my opinion, the lock serves no useful purpose. Add to that the fact that a mechanical lock consists of very small, precise load bearing surfaces. I cannot see any good coming from putting such a device in a high stress environment like a firearm.

I'm impressed. This thread has 13 posts, and is a very reasonable.
My compliments.
This subject has validity and I have no problem with reasonable discussion.
Enjoy the thread as long as it stays that way.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I have a Taurus .45ACP with a lock. Its my primary carry piece & is always loaded. Never used the lock nor do I intend to. None of my Smiths have the lock & are also loaded at all times. We have no children living at home. Grandkids never show up unannounced so there are no safety concerns along those lines. In these days of home invasions, car theft & burglary, I prefer to keep all my firearms within easy reach & ready for deployment.

My kids are grown, so I have never engaged the locks. Nevertheless, for some reason I carry the key on my keychain. Out of curiosity I just decided to see how they worked, I locked and unlocked my 640. Then I tried to lock my 66-7 which is an Aussie cop trade-in. Apparently the Aussie cops had no use for locks -- while the key turns in the lock, nothing engages -- it's inoperable.

Glad I checked.

I used to just ignore them. Then my 637-2 jammed at the range and needed the key wiggling in the lock to release the hammer. This was with non +P 125gr plated bullet loads. Then my 629-5 did the same thing. I bought her used and had to clean off a lot of dryed on WD-40 varnish when I got her. The key wiggling in the lock let the hammer go again. The side plate was pulled for a detailed cleaning and there was quite a bit of that varnish build up that was like glue with dust and grit. So maybe the ILS parts were suffering for the goo and filth. Don't know for sure but they were still yanked out. And I still think WD-40 is the devil around guns.

I also have an Australian trade-in 4" 66-7. They apparently ground the nub off the flag, so that when the flag is engaged the gun still operates. I don't mind the lock but it's a plus for me that it came with a cleanly done deactivation job.

It also seems the Aussie cops that used these guns hardly if ever fired them, which is another plus.

I have seven guns /w locks. Of those, three have the plug. They are in my suvs & car. My personal carry guns, M649 & M38-2, have no lock. I would never rely on a gun w/ a lock for SD. The lock may never fail, but why take a chance when it comes to the safety of my family or myself. IMHO

Along those lines, whether the gun is holstered, secured in my safe, or on my table being cleaned, I always want to be able to bring the firearm into action — should the worst-case scenario present itself — without ever having to think twice about whether its internal lock is engaged.

That being said, it's up to every responsible gun owner to decide what is best for him or her. If that means having an unloaded firearm with its internal lock engaged while the weapon is secured in a safe, then so be it.

The bottom line for me is that I'd never leave a gun unattended, regardless of whether it's actually loaded or not.

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Calmer than you are.

We don't live in a high-crime area and I have no real reason to carry but I do have a Pennsylvania License to Carry Concealed Weapons as it one of two ways you can legally carry a handgun while hunting in the Keystone State and they can be helpful for collectors, which the reason for having it that is stated on mine. But I'm not crazy about the locks, either, and while I own about a dozen S&W revolvers, none have locks and I don't see myself buying one that does.

Having said all that, I see the biggest problem regarding firearms in the home to be responsible storage. I live near Harrisburg, the state capitol, and we have had two preventable shootings involving kids during the last couple of years.

I the first case, a 10 year-old was playing with his aunt's 40S&W in the presence of his older cousin, who was supposed to be watching him but had a bunch of friends over for who-knows-what activity. The cousin, who knew enough about guns to be dangerous, made the gun "safe" by removing the loaded magazine. The 10 year-old promptly put the round in the chamber into his forehead.

The aunt bought the gun "on the street" from someone who got it from its rightful owner's girlfriend who stole it from the owner during a lover's spat. The local newspapers were filled with articles about what a shame it is that there are so many guns "out there." Never mind that it was stolen goods (the owner and the girlfriend kissed and made up right about when that kid was blowing his brains out, so it was never reported stolen), that some unlicensed street "dealer" bought and sold a handgun or that the aunt obtained it illegally. It was the gun's fault, can't you people see that?

In the second case, a three year-old walked through his family's living room past his father and two of his friends carrying his father's loaded 9mm and proceeded to the kitchen, where he shot his mother. She survived but again, it was the gun's fault.

Obviously, the guns in question were not stored in a responsible manner. I see the anti-gun outfits' next move to be pushing for legislation to prosecute gun owners when their gun is stolen from an "irresponsible" storage medium. And you know, I'm not really against that idea. It's just dumb to keep a loaded firearm under a mattress, in a nightstand or in a closet or other insecure place when there are children in the house. And even though our kids are grown and on their own, there still isn't a gun in my nightstand because as soundly as I sleep, a perp would be using it on me before I even knew he/she was in the house.

I write for Shotgun Sports Magazine and made this subject the topic of a column a year or so ago. If we gun owners as a group don't take the initiative to keep our guns stored responsibly, we as a group will suffer the consequences. One container that any judge and jury accepts as being as responsible a storage device as exists is a safe. The very word suggests that the gun owner did all he could to keep his firearms out of the hands of others.

Ed

I dont have an integrated lock in my S&W semi auto, a 5906 , but I did have one on my Taurus handgun and made frequent use of it. I also keep the magazine of my 5906 under my control when I am away from the weapon.

Here is why. When I joined this forum I stayed with a friend in the military on base with his wife.The two had spirited discussions about disagreements ranging from the lady friends my pal was seeing off duty to what stuff he was buying for said female work aquaintance and so forth.Then his wife hit on me, which is a different can of worms that did NOT improve the tense atmosphere.

The living environment was fairly turbulent , which I didn't know about prior to moving in. When I left the house the handgun I didn't carry was locked in a case with the internal lock engaged and the key on my person. The last thing I needed to face was coming home to my friend or his wife being severely injured or dead from a weapon I left in the house,and the Air Force Security Police putting me in cuffs on charges.

Moving in a safe for two handguns would have been expensive and impossible to hide.

Buying a lockable safe that's carryable would work, except being carryable it could be easily carried out of my room.

Keeping the weapons in my car exposes them to theft.

In my particular case having an internal lock on my Taurus saved me a lot of grief.I understand the political nature of why gun owners do not like the locks, but sometimes those annoying features can come in handy.

For example,using my 5906's magazine disconnect is a great way to safe the gun for unexpected trips to prohibited zones. Leaving a loaded gun in a car in front of a post office or other prohibited zone is a chance for a crook to bust in and grab your weapon, whereas if they do that with a 5906 or other mag disconnect equipped weapon they get a loaded paperweight. Sure, the crook can order a new magazine but that will take time, which allows me to go to the authorities to report the weapon before its used in a crime...which is also prevented by keeping the mag on my person.

This runs counter to a lot of gun owner's beliefs, but sometimes integrated safety features come in handy.

I really don't mind a lock on a weapon....don't have any with locks, but the Taurus system was the best when I had one with an IL on it. Out-of-sight-out-of-mind.

I would not mind the Smith lock if it were not so flimsy. If you have never gutted one it's a 5-piece Rube Goldberg contraption that is totally way over engineered. There just has to be a better way to install a solid lock on a beautiful gun.

Perhaps I'm mistaken but I thought that there weren't supposed to be any more IL threads on this portion of the forum?

This issue HAS been beaten to death. The antis will never change and the others just don't give a rip. I'm in the latter category. Don

While I respect the opinion of all here I really do not understand the strong dislike for the lock. For me, if it saves one life I have no problem with it. I was taught to respect and how to handle a firearm at a very young age but I also know how I was at a young age. I would not trust ME at a young age to not do something dumb and possibly hurt myself or someone else. The lock is fine with me, just my two cents.
Be safe, Frank.

First, thank you for that great J frame spring test!

Second, I found many legitimate cases of IL failure, at least enough examples for me that I came to the conclusion to not trust the device. Many have been documented on here on the Forum.

I guess it all comes down to a personal, statistical calculus to determine if the low probability of failure is worth the risk. Given that I have the ability to easily acquire a gun without the lock, that's what I do. I'm lucky in that I don't want any models that are only available with the IL (although I have owned some in the past). I do still own one Model 642 with the IL but the parts were long ago removed.

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Centennial Every Day

I think we will keep talking about this until we do get shut-down.....which is alight by me.

Tyrod's poll thread results indicate a 7-percent IL failure/problem rate so far. May I ask....if you had a gun that misfired 7 times out of 100...would you trust it. NO...you would be on here screaming about FTF issues.

I will just say that while I trust my Model 36, I will never trust my 637 ever again even if I ripped its guts out.

I'm curious for those few of us that have had it really fail, how many feel as I do?

Also, while I have no doubt that the real percentage is very low when you look at the volume of guns made compared to ILS failure, the fact that it fails at all is just poor design. The pitch fork on the spring with the flag right next to the hammer is an oil mixing lint and dust magnet. The spring is in the direction of the guns recoil. The keys all seem to be the exact same key copied thousands of times over.

And the worst part is that there have to be a dozen different designs that would be invisible or close to it. I always liked the idea of using the screw in the cylinder release latch as the lock. I was told that's a dumb idea since any slotted driver would unlock it. And a key copied the umteenth time isn't darn near the same? Push the latch forward and the hammer and trigger don't work. The cylinder would be able to swing open, but so what? I'm just throwing the idea out as a possible that wouldn't be so invasive and not require the spring, the frame size change on the K frame, and you wouldn't have all the wart in the side talk, and I'm pretty sure the argument of where the firing pin should be would still be the king troll thread.

The MIM is an obvious win for them so I can see why the whining will never defeat that one. I will still wish they could make it look better, but whatever.

So the question in my mind is why the dogged stay with the too many parts solution that throws the look so bad and keeps threads like these going a decade later still? Why?

I would also say that I've talked to a S&W engineer I know about the IL issue. From his perspective, there are far more IL issues on the internet than actually happen.

The poll also appears to be bogus, there is NO way that there is a 10% IL lock failure rate as the poll suggested when I first used it. If S&W had that kind of failure rate, they'd been subject to massive law suits and that hasn't happened. Sigh. Don

I don't know that we will ever know the real number of failures. My guess is the actual number is very small.

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Centennial Every Day

Personally I will not tolerate or have ANY lock on ANY gun.
I have only one S&W that was made with the lock. I might buy more, but if I do the first thing I will do is remove the lock. I want my guns to fire when necessary, I cannot have any type of lock failures.

If I am worried about my gun being handled by unauthorized people, adults or children then I secure the gun, from their ability to touch it...

I think who ever came up with the lock design, and who ever made it standard production should be burned alive at the stake.

I consider it one of the worst "gun" decisions ever made.

I am all for gun safety.

If a person needs to lock up a gun, and does not, or cannot afford some type of safe, then an inexpensive external locking device will work, without compromising the reliability of the gun, all IMHO of course.

Measuring the effectiveness of an internal firearms lock is statistically difficult to the point of being impossible, as the problem is similar to criminal vs citizen encounters where brandishing a weapon ends the attack and no police report is filed, thus denying researchers a metric to track.

I dont know whether or not my Taurus IL prevented the unauthorized use of the weapon, as anyone who tampered with it wont be in a hurry to announce to me they were screwing with my firearm.We know the failure rates, more or less, when the gun doesn't fire or malfunctions....but there is no way the owner will be aware of instances where kids, friends of kids, and unauthorized people in general tamper with a locked firearm unless the miscreant is caught red handed with his finger on the trigger.

As a kid , I got real good at listening for footsteps and the sound of my parent's car when I was up to no good.By the time Mom got upstairs to see what happened I typically covered up whatever mischeif I was up to. As such, with IL we only hear one side of the story and its typically negative.The times an IL saved a life will by comparison never see the light of discussion.

As a bleeding heart liberal I used to laugh at the idea that "guns don't kill people, people kill people".

I now understand that:

Safe people with safe guns don't kill people.
Safe people with unsafe guns can kill people.
Unsafe people with safe guns can kill people.
Unsafe people with unsafe guns need to be locked up before they hurt somebody!
Be safe, and enjoy your sport!

For TCC, I would say that virtually any quality firearm that is unsafe has been made so by fools modifying something they know little about. Don

I own one revolver with a lock. It's a model 60-15. So far I havent had any problems with it. I have fired full house 357 mag loads through it and I have engaged and disengaged the lock with no problems so far. Since I am your average citizen, law abiding, with a love of shooting and hunting I do not often run into the variety of situations that a law enforcement officer or CCW permit holder does. However since the kids are grown and we have had a garage burglary and an attempted front door breakin, I keep loaded weapons in hidden, accessible places in the house. I have not run into a situation where the internal lock has been useful. In my life a locked gun is as useless as an unloaded gun.

My situation mimics yours Fletch. I don't live in gang-land, but the trash is moving out into the more rural areas. I have already stopped a doped-up would-be burglar at my front door and thwarted a burglary across the street at my neighbors house, who was burglarized last year.

If I had a gun with a lock on it...it would never be locked and I keep all of them loaded and one is always within reach no matter where I am in the house. Only ones at home are me and the wife and we both have carry permits and we both carry no-locks.

Very carefully, with great regard for muzzle direction and little concern about a turn line. With the gun fully loaded and cylinder closed, pull the hammer back far enough to allow you to rotate the cylinder, and do so at least 360 degrees. This check for high primers, crud under the extractor, and other causes of failure of the cylinder to rotate.

It's a little trickier on a Centennial, which is one of the advantages of a bobbed-hammer Chief. The other is that it is easier to holster the Chief safely, by holding the hammer down while doing so.

My point has always been; I don't care if it has a lock or not, I buy based on quality and price. The used S&Ws are cheaper and at least as good quality as the new ones. So all mine are the used variety. I'd buy one with the IL if I could find a less expensive used one - it just has not happened yet.

The bigger issue IMHO with S&W is their move away from the 2" and 3" K frames. I really wish they'd bring those back. Especially the 66 2.5".

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But then, what do I know?

I own a number of j frames and most were purchased in prelock days. I do have a 340M&P recent purchase with no IL and I just bought a 438 with the IL. I prefer no lock but would not hesitate to purchase one I liked if it had the lock, and I have no plans to disable the one on the 438.

This mirrors my philosophy.

If the weapon is with-in reach, it's loaded.
If not, it's unloaded & in the safe.

Is the IL good? or bad? There are too many no-lock,, pre-lock weapons available to ever think of buying one w/IL..


My $00.0002

About once a year I find the internal lock useful. Once a year at Christmas I go to my brothers for the break and also in attendence will be his wifes brother and family. IIRC Caroline will be 8 this year and Sarah 12 and they are both lovely young ladies I look forward to seeing, however Caroline is a real tomboy and a bit of a "pistol". In addition we'll also have the extended family visiting on Christmas and some of the boys are all boy.

My brother has a small safe but with only 2 handguns he has no need or intention to purchase a safe large enough to accomidate my "arsenal". Yeah, I could leave some guns at home but one activity that's become a tradition is a range day, so I like to have a selection.

What I do when I visit is put cable locks on the semi's and lock the case with a padlock. With a revolver you can't close a case when it's cable locked. So, I'll lock the revolvers and then lock them in the cases. As for the ammo, that is all locked in the trunk of my car. End result is that all the guns are behind two layers of locks and a bit of piece of mind for myself. BTW, there is room in his safe for my carry pistol so it will spend the week in his safe fully loaded just in case.

As for the lock itself, I can't tolerate the recoil of the featherweights so all my wheelguns trend to heavy. My lightest revolver with a lock is my 620 and with over 2000 rounds downrange I've never had a problem with it. My biggest complaint about the lock is the debate it causes and the sales lost by S&W to those who want nothing to do with it.

I never use the IL on my weapons. I rather just put them in a locked box.

I do not own a wheel barrow load of handguns. The S&W's I own are the older types w/o the IL. I do own one new S&W... a 21-4 Thunder Ranch that does of course have the IL. I lost the key, so it stays unlocked. It is a fine revolver, beautiful and very well fitted, a real joy to carry, hold and use. I understand the emotions, etc. involved with the IL. It is not unlike the attitude of some 1911 devotes towards the Series 80 COLT's. I have not had any problems with the IL on my revolver. It may be that concerns about the IL are inflated.

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<><

When I visit friends or family members with kids, I just keep my 2 handguns on my person.
In the past 40 years nobody has been accidently shot with one of my guns yet...

I can't remember where I put the key's---I am doomed to keep them unlocked.
Same goes with the ammo---Got to keep it where I can remember.

A little tounge in cheek here, but, the over simplification is honest.
If I can't carry it un;ocked---to wherever I am going--I will not go or leave it in my vehicle locked up--when I get there,
I still think boys and girls can learn.
I still think that stuff happens.
Blessings

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TEXAS, by GOD