INSPECT NEW SMITH BEFORE ACCEPTING IT!!

[chief38]

It seems that each week that goes by I read more and more threads here about defective Smith & Wesson Revolvers. Many are from the Performance Center which pains me even more!

The most important thing that MUST BE DONE when you purchase a new Smith (or any gun for that matter) is to go over it with a fine toothed comb BEFORE accepting it! Check the timing, barrel cylinder gap, ejector rod run out, push-off, barrel alignment (clocking), scratches, dents, gouges, smoothness of the action, smoothness of the cylinder release, etc. The time to do this is BEFORE it becomes yours!

Now I know many who purchase new Smiths are exited "Newbies" and have little to no idea what I am talking about so that's why it is all the more important to bring someone along who KNOWS what they are doing and exactly what to look for.

Sorry to say it but Smith has been shipping some real junkers lately and unless you want to go through the pain and effort of sending a brand new gun back at least once - make sure - to the best of ones ability that you either check it out or have someone do it for you. It will surely save you lots of headaches along the way!

EDIT:

By the way the same goes for ALL GUNS (new & used) including older Smiths.

[dwever]

Originally Posted by chief38

It seems that each week that goes by I read more and more threads here about defective Smith & Wesson Revolvers.

Sorry to say it but Smith has been shipping some real junkers lately and unless you want to go through the pain and effort of sending a brand new gun back at least once - make sure - to the best of ones ability that you either check it out or have someone do it for you.

Originally Posted by dwever

In S&W I have or have had a J Frame .38 (1975), three 627's (2007 - 2015), a 586 L-Comp (2015) a 629 (2008), two 1911's (2008 - 2010), and a 617 (ca. 2005). All of those were Performance Center weapons except one 1911, the J-frame, and the 617. My first two 627's, my 629, and one 1911 were special ordered in sight unseen. NOTHING has gone back for a problem. I've NEVER had a malfunction with a S&W revolver and I compete with two of the 627's. One 627 went to TK Custom to take the action from good to best and to get the charge holes ramped for competition; and the 586-L Comp also got the action job and a brighter night-sight as I'm qualified with it at my agency.

The OP's exhortation to inspect is always reasonable advice; but since it is made on the premise of poor QC at S&W and the seeming certainty you'll send, "a brand new gun back at least once" I thought it worth reporting to you that is not necessarily the case (2015 purchases pictured).

[CajunBass]

Well, while it's true that not all Smith & Wesson's are defective, it's good advice for ANY gun.

I don't know how many times I've read on this and other forums "When I got it home and inspected it...."

I find it hard to believe, but apparently it happens.

[frankcr]

We are hearing a lot about people who buy revolvers which have problems, but we do not want to over react. You have to feel bad for someone who does find he has purchased one with problems, but all the ones we have owned have been great right out the box. If you knew the ratio of guns with no defects to ones with defects, you would probably find only a very few have problems. These are the ones who prompt a person to post on the web.

The OP recommending that a customer should check out any item he is planning to buy is a good thing.

[bigfatty]

I reiterate: 3 new S&W revolvers (686+ PC, 586 Classic, M66) ordered in 5 month period in 2015, 1 revolver sent back to retailer, 2 sent immediately back to S&W for "repair." My 66 is supposed to arrive back to me today; from all the work the CS rep told me they did on it, I can't believe they didn't just send me the "new" gun I paid for ...

[joe44va]

I hear a lot lately about failed QC. I don't believe that is the case. As a past Plant Manager I believe that it is the manufacturing employees responsibility to do it right the first time. That is where real Quality comes from. QC can't catch everything. They have a leadership issue or a growing pains (lack of training) issue. I've had to send several back to Momma over the last couple of years and I have noticed a reduction in turn around time. This, I hope, means they are effectively addressing the issues. Anyway, it's really good advice to inspect before the purchase. Unfortunately, You are the final QC.

[gnystrom]

I thought quality control was a top priority but alas I have learned to be more skeptical.
A week or two ago my PC gun came in to my local LGS and it was perfect in every measure I could apply while testing.
except,
the flutes in the barrel (640 Pro) were covered in deep pits. No, I mean deep pits.
How that gun ever made it past inspection in the PC I will never know.
I will spare you pictures because further embarrassment of the final inspector is unnecessary.

[dwever]

I just can't believe we're going to do this thread again.

The OP was just vociferously participating in a whine and cheese thread regarding S&W "lemons" that finally lost steam this weekend.

Originally Posted by chief38

S&W QC has gone down the tubes over the last few years and for some reason I actually see a disproportionate amount of defects on Performance Center guns that sell for higher prices. - what up with that? I always thought the higher the price the better the quality. Guess not!

At what point does the hair start growing on your knuckles? Like a troll. Let me be clear. I think a fair discussion of these issues is legitimate and I would not want to quell real dialogue. But at some point, the people who won't or can't put an issue down even after it has been exhausted, or they immediately spawn new critical threads indistinguishably similar to ones that just finished but thinly veiled in a new topic like customer awareness, at some point the sheer volume and vitriolic ceases being a dialogue and becomes an agenda. Agendas, by the way, that this forum explicitly warns against.

Edited for brevity: A Forum Administrator has a sticky titled "Bashing, Crying and Whining." In it he says, "If you are one of the people who constantly enters threads ONLY to spew whatever you dislike about modern S&W revolvers, STOP doing it. I'm not trying to tell you what to like. I am telling you to leave the people who do like and use these products alone to enjoy them, and move along to a discussion about something you like. Just as we don't allow anti-gunners to come here and bash you and your guns, you don't need to be here bashing the modern products and making the owners of them feel inferior or stupid for using them."

Read the entire sticky for full context: Bashing, Crying, & Whining

[American1776]

My current favorite revolver is a M657 Performance Center .41 magnum. It has the ugly key-lock. However, the fit and finish on this one is every bit as good as my Pinned and Recessed Model 58.

That said, I have seen quite a few 'out of spec' new S&W revolvers. However, I believe that the factory specs have loosened quite a bit over the past few decades. Yoke to frame alignment is one such example. Look at the gap between the yoke and frame that is now common in the new ones. Then examine a pre-1980 S&W in that area. Same goes for endshake.

Here's the important thing: the revolvers still work fine in most cases. They just aren't 'hand fitted' in the same way the old-world revolvers had to be.

[chief38]

INSPECT, INSPECT and then INSPECT again !!! It will surely save a LOT of headaches when you get it home. Try and control your excitement - because excitement has a bad habit of temporarily blinding people.

If you think I was exaggerating just start taking note of how many people are complaining and send back their new Smiths for defects and poor workmanship! Yes, some people get good ones, but lately they are too few and far between it seems.

[BillBond]

The only gun I purchased this year was a new 617.
It is the first S&W in over 25 years that has had to go back for repairs.

[frankcr]

You know, I joined this site after purchasing a new revolver and wanted to see what others thought about that model. After a short time, I took the site off the favorites in my computer and did not bother reading it for a time. That was due to all the negative postings.

When I see someone who has a defective gun, my immediate reaction is to feel bad for them. Then when you see repeated postings on additional threads over the same gun, I am afraid my attitude changes drastically and I wish not to hear any more from them. Sooner or later enough becomes enough. Sell it, junk it, or get it repaired but stop complaining.

[hangnoose]

Bad reviews get more press & travel quicker than the good ones. On to mfg, doesn't the buck stop with management? You know, those that make the most $. As I see it mgt's job is to lower the incidence of lemons produced at the lower paid assembly line workers level, and QC to catch those lemons before they are shipped. More $ spent on training/ salary/ morale & company pride for those on the line, & more #'s of QC workers would improve public perception. Prevention vs putting out fires. I'm sure the bean counters have much to say about what gets spent where.

[H Richard]

I normally don't get involved in these discussions because I like S&W's and I collect them. Maybe it's just luck, but the only S&W I have ever had to return to the CO. was the 686 no dash for a recall, and yes,I've been continually buying them for around 35 years or so. I have S&W's from every decade since they began producing handguns right up to the present. Yes, I have one with a lock on the side, a 617-6, and it is one of my most accurate handguns.

Now, what about auto's? How many have been recalled for defects, some that actually result in death's. What about various electrical implements, toasters, irons, TV's, etc that have failed and or been recalled, including airplanes. Just about every product made has has some manufacturing defect at some time or another. By comparison, S&W's may have fewer problems than many other products. Products are made by people, people make mistakes, fact of life.

[Carrier]

I was new to revolvers when I bought my 686. I've learned a lot but what would be good for not just others who have never had one but also for guys such as myself is if someone here who knows S&W revolvers in and out could make a video on just what you need to take with you and what exactly to look for.

I knew nothing about checking the timing, barrel cylinder gap, ejector rod run out, push-off, barrel alignment (clocking) only the usual of does it appear to work and are there any dings, gouges and the like.

Have a reference video of how to properly inspect one would be invaluable to first time buyer. Cause not everybody knows someone who can help them.
Plus not only would that be doing something to help it might just stop someone from getting hurt as well.

[bigfatty]

Word to the wise -- as the OP states, INSPECT! If you don't want a clocked barrel shroud with the serration lines not mating with those on the top of the frame, don't buy the gun, because they won't fix it unless the barrel, itself, is also clocked ... and, BOTH, only if clocked outside of their "acceptable" degree of specification. Wow, have their standards gone downhill.

[ralph7]

The head of quality control says he doesn't see anything wrong with any of the guns he sends out.

[S&W617]

"The OP was just vociferously participating in a whine and cheese thread regarding S&W "lemons" that finally lost steam this weekend."

I received my 586 Classic as a gift from my wife who obviously didn't/can't inspect it. She bought S&W because of what I have told her, they cost more because they're the "BEST". I will take an older used Smith over most any other newer revolver. I only own two revolvers that aren't S&W and one was given to me. That being said, when you pay $800 (BPS) for a gun, it is not whining to expect that the gun be perfect!! Aside from a canted rear sight blade (fixed by S&W) dinged up grips (replaced) and some minor blemishes in the finish, this gun was perfect and will remain in my safe for as long as I am around. I didn't even expect the finish to be fixed, most likely it was the result of some careless handling at the retailer. My hackles were raised by the snarky person on the other end of the phone who insinuated that I had gotten a "discounted display" gun and went on to tell me that the warranty don't work like that. This lecture I received about something that I really only mentioned as an aside. Human nature kicks in, you push and I'll push back. I don't care that my gun wasn't fixed, what bugged me was that he seemed to get offensive for no reason. But to insult people as whiners because they pay top dollar for what they KNOW is a TOP QUALITY product, based on past experience, is just as offensive.

[Rick_A]

MY REVOLVER HAS A CRACK IN THE FRAME ON THE RIGHT SIDE. LUBRICANT COMES OUT WHEN I FIRE IT. IT'S RIGHT NEXT TO SOME SCREWS. WHAT SHOULD I DO?


GOOD THING FOR THIS THREAD!

[Engineer1911]

Originally Posted by Rick_A

MY REVOLVER HAS A CRACK IN THE FRAME ON THE RIGHT SIDE. LUBRICANT COMES OUT WHEN I FIRE IT. IT'S RIGHT NEXT TO SOME SCREWS. WHAT SHOULD I DO?


GOOD THING FOR THIS THREAD!

The "crack" is the joint between the side plate and frame. The side plate is not properly installed. There is a problem, but it isn't a crack!

In the spirit of this thread, I guess you are not the brightest crayon in the box ! You may not be able to follow instructions for removing the side plate either.

[Irn-Bru]

Like everything in life, you only hear the bad reviews. Thousand of new S&W owners are very happy with there guns and never feel the need to complain and join a forum to direct there displeasure.

We have no idea what the ratio of bad guns to good guns is. May be 100/1 maybe 500/1.

[Kho]

Originally Posted by chief38

INSPECT, INSPECT and then INSPECT again !!! It will surely save a LOT of headaches when you get it home. Try and control your excitement - because excitement has a bad habit of temporarily blinding people.

If you think I was exaggerating just start taking note of how many people are complaining and send back their new Smiths for defects and poor workmanship! Yes, some people get good ones, but lately they are too few and far between it seems.

I think you are being blinded by the internet. The number of people who participate in forums like this represent a very small percentage of buyers. Unless you have some inside information on s&w defect/return rates, you are drawing conclusions based an insignificant sample size, and those conclusions are therefore meaningless.

[bigfatty]

Hey, I WANT to get good Smith's! I WANT to say great things about them, like I do about my Kimbers and Sigs! But, this "is" the S&W forum ...

[2hawk]

Good advice that we should all be putting our eyeballs on our purchases BEFORE the transfer. Many buy S&W because the reputation they have had as the BEST revolver maker. So, it is understandable that we hear about the problems AFTER the sale, when the new owner has had a real chance to clean, shoot and inspect their new arm.

Of course, we rarely hear from those buyers whose expectations were well met. So the negative reports are understandably more frequent in relation to the number of guns sold. Same is true for any product, and I am not trying to let S&W off the hook. When they are shipping bad guns, they need to be held to account.

Maybe it's time to re-post this excellent write up. Bear in mind, it's a one size fits all (Colt, S&W, Ruger, et al), but it's still the most comprehensive article of its kind that I have seen.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6Fh.../edit?hl=en_US

[S&W617]

"In the spirit of this thread, I guess you are not the brightest crayon in the box !

CS representative ???

[S&W617]

I think we would all agree that Ruger sells more firearms than Smith by far.

BBB closed complaints

Ruger - product related 4 (one was for turn line on cylinder ?)

S&W - product related 33
Both over a period of 3yrs. Guess there are a lot of dull crayons buying Smiths. Not a huge number by any means, but compared to the volume and larger product line of Ruger it seems out of kilter to me. Still take my Smith over ANY Ruger DA. Just never liked Ruger DA's or autos.

[chief38]

Originally Posted by Kho

I think you are being blinded by the internet. The number of people who participate in forums like this represent a very small percentage of buyers. Unless you have some inside information on s&w defect/return rates, you are drawing conclusions based an insignificant sample size, and those conclusions are therefore meaningless.

I'm 62, own PLENTY of Smiths and have been shooting them for 47 years. I am NOT just forming this opinion solely based on the Internet or Forums, I also belong to 3 Gun Clubs (frequent them often) and run into shooters frequently that are voicing complaints and problems on the new production Smiths. I don't know how long you have been shooting or buying Smith Revolvers, but I can't remember a higher complaint / send back rate - ever.

I have not taken a National survey but even just a few years back there were not these amounts and blatant defects as is being reported now. Sorry if it offends any one - I am not trying to do that, I am simply stating what I hear see and feel. YMMV.

While I do not know actual numbers, I believe this particular Forum is pretty darn huge and one of the most respected S&W Forums out there. I also believe it to be one of the best sources of S&W owner feedback I have seen to date. I therefore do NOT discount what I hear and see in writing on this Forum.

[bigfatty]

Originally Posted by American1776

My current favorite revolver is a M657 Performance Center .41 magnum. It has the ugly key-lock. However, the fit and finish on this one is every bit as good as my Pinned and Recessed Model 58.

That said, I have seen quite a few 'out of spec' new S&W revolvers. However, I believe that the factory specs have loosened quite a bit over the past few decades. Yoke to frame alignment is one such example. Look at the gap between the yoke and frame that is now common in the new ones. Then examine a pre-1980 S&W in that area. Same goes for endshake.

Here's the important thing: the revolvers still work fine in most cases. They just aren't 'hand fitted' in the same way the old-world revolvers had to be.

CNC machines are a boon and a bane. When they're freshly calibrated and all the parts are coming off the same one ... perfection. If they're at the cycle -- especially if parts are coming off of different, poorly calibrated machines -- you could wind up with a mess. Companies can't let days or weeks of production get thrown away, so they loosen their specs accordingly. With the old hand fitting, poor fitting parts were taken care of by assemblers, most of whom knew what they were doing and took pride in their work back in the day. It's a different world.

That being said, one has to wonder how the ugly, blocky Glock doesn't have a lot of these problems. You couldn't pay me to own one of those things, but if the SHTF and there was a table full of guns in front of me, it'd probably be the first thing I pick up.

[Kho]

Originally Posted by chief38

I'm 62, own PLENTY of Smiths and have been shooting them for 47 years. I am NOT just forming this opinion solely based on the Internet or Forums, I also belong to 3 Gun Clubs (frequent them often) and run into shooters frequently that are voicing complaints and problems on the new production Smiths. I don't know how long you have been shooting or buying Smith Revolvers, but I can't remember a higher complaint / send back rate - ever.

I have not taken a National survey but even just a few years back there were not these amounts and blatant defects as is being reported now. Sorry if it offends any one - I am not trying to do that, I am simply stating what I hear see and feel. YMMV.

While I do not know actual numbers, I believe this particular Forum is pretty darn huge and one of the most respected S&W Forums out there. I also believe it to be one of the best sources of S&W owner feedback I have seen to date. I therefore do NOT discount what I hear and see in writing on this Forum.

Sorry, I realize my post came off as harsh and that was not my intent. Your advice to inspect is sound regardless of QC impressions. I bristle when someone makes statements about quality that come off as fact. Regardless of age, experience, gun clubs, or forums - which still represents an insignificant sample size - no one that I've met or read about has any hard defect numbers. And without that, any comments about quality is nothing more than conjecture.

People are always busting on Kimber too but seem to forget that, like Smith, the number of guns they sell has risen dramatically so, even with the same defect rate, the absolute number of problem guns should go up proportionally.

I find it hard to believe that any gun manufacturer wouldn't track QC numbers closely because the cost of dealing with a returned gun is high. But that's just my conjecture.

[chief38]

Just as an aside ..........

Colt is probably the most mismanaged, ill run, and neglected gun company of them all! Their equipment is antiquated as is their facility. They are operating in bankruptcy, have the Union putting a choke hold on them and are in one of the worst anti-gun States in the Country. They are producing the lowest amount of civilian/commercial guns in their history and have very few variations to even choose from. Basically they can't get out of their own way and are stuck in neutral!

All that said, the few guns that do trickle out of the Colt Factory have been nothing short of magnificent! I've seen, shot and disassembled NEW Mustangs, Gold Cups (S-70), Gov' Models (S-70)and even some Single Action Army's and they are about the best I have ever seen come out of their Factory in recent times. I had TWO matching Colt SAA Revolvers re-blued and re-Case Colored by them not too long ago and they are to die for! Simply magnificent and gorgeous! Not only did they do an incredible job on the Royal Blue / Case Colors, but they went over the entire 2 guns and made them like brand new. Just so you know..... these two Colts were used twice a month for CAS competition and numerous practice sessions in between. Anyone who has shot CAS/SASS matches knows the guns get beat up, dinged, banged, and shot the hell out of!

My point here is that even a Company with 1 3/4 feet in the grave CAN produce fine guns if they really want to. Maybe I have just been lucky, but I can honestly say I have NOT seen a Colt come out of Hartford lately that had to to back for ANY REASON!. And remember sports fans, Colt is working with antiquated tooling and equipment while Smith has state of the art stuff! they are also scrounging for supplies, tools and materials as they are STILL in bankruptcy. If they can do it, then why not a cash rich Company like Smith & Wesson??

[dwever]

Originally Posted by S&W617

it is not whining to expect that the gun be perfect!! . . . But to insult people as whiners because they pay top dollar for what they KNOW is a TOP QUALITY product, based on past experience, is just as offensive.

I agree. Really. And not why I was being offensive. People can and should come on here when there is an issue or issues for help, empathy, and dialogue.

I was being offensive for the reasons stated by frankcr when those reasons are coupled with repetitiveness and vitriolic.

Originally Posted by frankcr

When I see someone who has a defective gun, my immediate reaction is to feel bad for them. Then when you see repeated postings on additional threads over the same gun, I am afraid my attitude changes drastically and I wish not to hear any more from them. Sooner or later enough becomes enough. Sell it, junk it, or get it repaired but stop complaining.

[sw282]

Hi.. l am sw282.. About 2 years ago l was on the net and saw this beautiful tu/tone 629 Magnum Hunter and had to have one..My only choice was the net to buy one. Three weeks and $1500 later this most beautiful 44 Magnum is in my hands In South Carolina.. My first NEW Smith in 20 years (l almost always buy used). At 68 l felt like when l got my my first new Columbia bike... At this moment l was SHOOTER 282..l was so excited to get this baby dirty l drove right to the range and bought FACTORY ammo. l could care less about end shake, push off, b/c gap... l was ready to SHOOT... l had just spent $1500.. For that price everything better damn sure be right.. That's S&W's job.. Not mine.. And it was/IS RIGHT !! After 5000 rounds it shoots BETTER than new.Mim parts and all

Shooter282 reporting...lnspector 282 is RETIRED :--))

[sgc]

Sounds like older Smiths, but that have the Internal Lock, might now become more desirable than purchasing new. At least it sounds like the quality control may have been higher, say in the early 2000's.

[frankcr]

I stand behind what was quoted.

Looking at one case, the gentleman posted several times each on at least three threads about the same gun. Sorry he got a lemon, but those things happen. So are all the redundant posts designed to spread the word that the company commonly sells junk? Then he complains that he is going to have to shoot it to see if it is accurate after the factory repaired it. As we buy our guns to shoot at the range, it is surprising to hear the complaint that he is going to have to shoot his to make sure it is accurate. Uh, wouldn't you think that he would try it out before additional complaining?

Our new van has a door which was bent to fit the door opening but should still give us good service like the predecessor which we ran for 150,000 miles with just normal maintenance. You have to look close to see the defect, but it has no bearing on the vehicles usefulness.

Due to costs, it is to the advantage of any company not to have to repair after the sale, so these things are tracked closely by companies. Too many returned for repair and steps will be taken to solve the problem.

We have a Ruger which was the apple of complainers eyes when it came out. After purchasing one, it was evident that all the gun needed was to be broken in and we find it to be an extremely trustworthy pistol today. Coming from an engineering background, it was easy to determine that the problems were in the eyes of non technical users who did not understand mechanical things or tolerances. The reviews would make you think it was a piece of garbage, but after breakin, ours never fails to function properly.

No one on this site has any idea of what the real situation is with Smith, but it would be a safe bet that the factory keeps up to date on this matter.

Reinterating, if you get a defective gun, I hate to see that happen to you. Nothing wrong in posting about it, but repeatedly complaining really gets past ridiculous. You are not going to change the minds of those who have good results from their own purchasing experience. Those who may have had empathy with you to start with will soon label you as just a complainer.

[BigBill]

Bending a door to fit properly is old school. We did that in the early 70's.
There are guys on the assembly lines today that still tweet doors into there frames.

There's a reason I never sold my Rugers. I regret selling my python. I feel a blend of old and new s&w revolvers is ok. I think a barrel on my new Smith is cocked but just a hair. I feel the adjustable rear sight will adjust it.

[cal50]

Originally Posted by chief38

Sorry to say it but Smith has been shipping some real junkers lately and unless you want to go through the pain and effort of sending a brand new gun back at least once - make sure - to the best of ones ability that you either check it out or have someone do it for you. It will surely save you lots of headaches along the way!

Your perception may not be reality.
All companies that manufacture products will have occasional quality problems. It could be a process change, material related, equipment failure, etc.
It's how these issues are handeled that separate a good company from a great company.

S&W has been around a while and fully supports it's products, often for the 2nd or more owners. I do not follow your "pain or effort" comment when S&W often covers the cost to fix their mistakes. It's not fun having anything you purchase need repair but having a solid & honest company on the other end is reassuring.

I would agree it's smart to inspect a new firearm purchase but not with a level of paranoia. I cut S&W some slack because the few issues I have had over the last few decades have been minor and in each instance they made it right.

The only issue with my last new S&W purchase was minor and it made me laugh. I was looking for obvious defects and major issues and found none.
It's not until I noticed my sight screw was odd looking..... A phone call had a replacement screw in the mail the same day.

Buy a gun, look it over and go shoot it and enjoy it.
Worry less and have fun and if you do have a problem S&W will take care of you.

This was missed by me, the final inspection and who ever installed it in the performance center

[cal50]

[frankcr]

Old, the old x tip screwdriver trick, eh

Wonder if Brownells sells them.

[bigfatty]

Originally Posted by frankcr

I stand behind what was quoted.

Looking at one case, the gentleman posted several times each on at least three threads about the same gun. Sorry he got a lemon, but those things happen. So are all the redundant posts designed to spread the word that the company commonly sells junk? Then he complains that he is going to have to shoot it to see if it is accurate after the factory repaired it. As we buy our guns to shoot at the range, it is surprising to hear the complaint that he is going to have to shoot his to make sure it is accurate. Uh, wouldn't you think that he would try it out before additional complaining?

Our new van has a door which was bent to fit the door opening but should still give us good service like the predecessor which we ran for 150,000 miles with just normal maintenance. You have to look close to see the defect, but it has no bearing on the vehicles usefulness.

Due to costs, it is to the advantage of any company not to have to repair after the sale, so these things are tracked closely by companies. Too many returned for repair and steps will be taken to solve the problem.

We have a Ruger which was the apple of complainers eyes when it came out. After purchasing one, it was evident that all the gun needed was to be broken in and we find it to be an extremely trustworthy pistol today. Coming from an engineering background, it was easy to determine that the problems were in the eyes of non technical users who did not understand mechanical things or tolerances. The reviews would make you think it was a piece of garbage, but after breakin, ours never fails to function properly.

No one on this site has any idea of what the real situation is with Smith, but it would be a safe bet that the factory keeps up to date on this matter.

Reinterating, if you get a defective gun, I hate to see that happen to you. Nothing wrong in posting about it, but repeatedly complaining really gets past ridiculous. You are not going to change the minds of those who have good results from their own purchasing experience. Those who may have had empathy with you to start with will soon label you as just a complainer.

As you are obviously referring to me at the top of your post, I would like to respond. The reason I am upset that I have to test it BEFORE putting on the mini red dot, new grips, etc. is because the only way S&W will address the clocked barrel shroud issue is if the gun doesn't shoot straight. I can't send them the gun with all the aftermarket stuff on it. There is no way to tell if the barrel itself is badly clocked without testing it first with the factory sights on (which S&W should have done before they sent it back to me ... why they didn't only they can say). If it's off, it has to go back in its original state.

So, I have no choice but to do this first, solely for the purpose of determining whether it has to go back. Would it not have made sense for S&W after receiving the gun in that state with a clearly stated request for correction of the issue to at least test fire it to ensure that everything is right before returning it to me? If they had fired it, sent a bullseye target indicating an accurate grouping with the sights set as returned to me (especially considering they replaced the sights!!!!), I wouldn't need to do this and spend over $100 unnecessarily, would I?

I'm sorry you disagree, but shooting the gun to test QC AND the QC of their repairs is not "doing what I bought the gun for" in the first place. I have never received a gun back from a manufacturer after a repair (and this includes S&W) without it having been test fired.

[gnystrom]

Originally Posted by bigfatty

CNC machines are a boon and a bane. When they're freshly calibrated and all the parts are coming off the same one ... perfection. If they're at the cycle -- especially if parts are coming off of different, poorly calibrated machines -- you could wind up with a mess. Companies can't let days or weeks of production get thrown away, so they loosen their specs accordingly. With the old hand fitting, poor fitting parts were taken care of by assemblers, most of whom knew what they were doing and took pride in their work back in the day. It's a different world.

That being said, one has to wonder how the ugly, blocky Glock doesn't have a lot of these problems. You couldn't pay me to own one of those things, but if the SHTF and there was a table full of guns in front of me, it'd probably be the first thing I pick up.

Amen to that.

[Mr.Lee]

My first firearm purchase was 327 trr8. When I got home, yep that's right....when I got home, I noticed on the arm the cylinder swings out on has 3 numbers engraved on it. Looks like it was done poorly by hand with some sort of vibrating tool. I was a little bit pissed off because I spent $1200 on a brand new gun. Honestly its just cosmetic. More confuses why or how someone would do that and then try to sell it as new. Other than that, the gun is great. Wish I was a better shot.

[Rick_A]

Originally Posted by Engineer1911

The "crack" is the joint between the side plate and frame. The side plate is not properly installed. There is a problem, but it isn't a crack!

In the spirit of this thread, I guess you are not the brightest crayon in the box ! You may not be able to follow instructions for removing the side plate either.

Nice try.

In eight revolvers over fifteen years that was my only factory defect. It was repaired promptly. That's one of the new four screw guns (Classics series) so the sideplate is especially easy to remove and replace. That has only been done once to install a plug after it came back

[robert1804]

I have bought 13 new Smith revolvers (plus a Classic 27 6 1/2" on the way) and 2 M&P's, all this year. One, a model 67, went back for a sighting problem that was not a canted barrel. They "reset" the barrel and the gun came back perfect, even the action seemed smoother than I remembered.

About three weeks ago, I bought an M&P 9 full size and a Classic Model 57 blued. The M&P has a small pitted area in the barrel and the 57 had an irregular b/c gap that varied between .005" to .011". Talked to S&W about those two today, they were quick to send a shipping label for both.

I am not the least bit mad about this. The way I see it, I'll bet the people who fix 'em are probably more skilled than the good folks who make 'em. I bet the M&P gets a new barrel which would be great since it wasn't very accurate anyway. And the 57 will probably get the barrel set back and gapped correctly. I'm just fine with these guns getting "fussed over" by skilled techs. It may take a while to get them back but I've got other guns to work up loads for and shoot.

The other 11 revolvers have been fine. A 66 and a 69 in particular are absolutely flawless in finish and function. A 625 PC with a perfect .003" b/c gap, just a bunch of good guns. The worst thing I'm not returning is an almost undetectable flaw in the bluing on a Model 27 4". Like most people who don't have problems with our recent Smiths, I tend not to post much about all the good ones.

[gnystrom]

I agree with you Robert, but why should much of this happen in the first place? I realize most here are certainly on the "fussy" side and I would expect most of the infrequent shooters would never notice what we here consider to be a major flaw. It is my hope that sooner or later S&W as well as all other manufacturers step up their game and investigate which areas of their manufacturing process is costing them a lot of unnecessary cost. Guns are priced high enough as it is now. I would love to know what manufacturers add to the cost of each gun to cover themselves when mistakes are shipped back for repair.

I am with you, I am not mad that they have my gun in the repair shop, just unhappy they have to re-do something that never should have left their shop in the first place.
My 2¢