442-1 & polygonal rifling

Lenny_D · Feb 9, 2012

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I've two questions for you. Number one is that I bought a model 442-1 last year without the IL. While looking through my copy of the "Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson" It gave the dates of manufacture of around 1999 to 2001 and then the 442-2 with the IL came out. Does that mean that my gun was in storage somewhere since that time? Or did S&W make a new batch without the IL and mark them 442-1 because of the lack of the IL?
I've also been hearing that S&W has gone to polygonal rifling in newer guns. Can anyone tell me when that change occured? I only own 2 S&W's that are newer. The 442-1 I mentioned above and a 696 no dash. Thanks in advanced I've learned a lot about S&W's from this forum.

photoman · Feb 9, 2012

Starting in the mid to late 1990's, Smith & Wesson changed the way they rifled the barrels. Instead of broach rifling, they use the ECM process.

one eye joe · Feb 9, 2012

H&K uses polygonal rifling. Users report many advantages such as improved bullet sealing, velocity, accuracy, easier cleanup, and longer barrel life. I believe that S&W began using ECM rifling in 1993. Is this what you are referring to by your use of the term, "polygonal rifling" ? Some users complain about excessive leading (see the thread in this section of the forum below). I have not personally experienced this. Here is a link that describes the Electro Chemical Machining process.......Firearms History, Technology & Development: Rifling: Manufacturing: Electro Chemical Machining

corpulent · Feb 9, 2012

Lenny_D said:
Or did S&W make a new batch without the IL and mark them 442-1 because of the lack of the IL?

^Pretty sure this is the case.

photoman · Feb 9, 2012

one eye joe said:
I believe that S&W began using ECM rifling in 1993.

Interesting note: My 1996 Model 37 has broach rifling.

C Islander · Feb 9, 2012

I've got a 442-1 NIL. Serial#CBS518xx. When was mine made, and is it one that came after the -2's? I'd like to know more about this story.

DonDee · Feb 9, 2012

CIsland said:
I've got a 442-1 NIL. Serial#CBS518xx. When was mine made, and is it one that came after the -2's? I'd like to know more about this story.

I just bought a new 442-1 and a new 642-1 yesterday. One has a late November 2011 date on the shell envelope and the other has a January 2012 date on the shell envelope. They are quietly making them both ways it would seem.

Here's the greater mystery to me: the 442-1 came in the same blue plastic box that we've all been used to seeing for years, but the 642-1 came in an old fashioned looking dark blue cardboard box! Serial numbers were factory correct and matched the gun on each box. What's up with that?

Az. revolver fan · Feb 9, 2012

Don't mean to get off subject but Polygonal- type rifling, to my knowledge as a certified Glock armorer, is only used in Glock and H&K handguns. This type of rifling can NEVER be used with lead bullets as it can result in dangerous increases in pressure.

JAREDSHS · Feb 9, 2012

Az. revolver fan said:
Don't mean to get off subject but Polygonal- type rifling, to my knowledge as a certfied Glock armorer, is only used in Glock and H&K handguns. This type of rifling can NEVER be used with lead bullets as it can result in dangerous increases in pressure.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT !!

dla · Feb 9, 2012

JAREDSHS said:
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT !!

Sorry, but that is total BS. Millions if not billions of lead bullets are launched out of stock Glocks each year. I wished that I knew where all these urban-legends come from

Az. revolver fan · Feb 9, 2012

It's not an "urban legend", it's been common knowledge for years (actually, since the first Glock 17 hit the gun stores in the mid-1980's with "Jacketed Ammunition Only" written in bold print in the manual) and it's in the manuals for both brands. Glock couldn't stress it in strong enough terms when I took their armorer's course. Shooters who wish to shoot lead in their Glocks and H&K's for whatever reasons (usually reloaders and comp. shooters) simply buy "drop in" aftermarket barrels with standard rifling.

dla · Feb 10, 2012

Az. revolver fan said:
It's not an "urban legend", it's been common knowledge for years (actually, since the first Glock 17 hit the gun stores in the mid-1980's with "Jacketed Ammunition Only" written in bold print in the manual) and it's in the manuals for both brands. Glock couldn't stress it in strong enough terms when I took their armorer's course. Shooters who wish to shoot lead in their Glocks and H&K's for whatever reasons (usually reloaders and comp. shooters) simply buy "drop in" aftermarket barrels with standard rifling.

"common knowledge" is sometimes wrong.

warrconn · Feb 10, 2012

DonDee said:
I just bought a new 442-1 and a new 642-1 yesterday. One has a late November 2011 date on the shell envelope and the other has a January 2012 date on the shell envelope. They are quietly making them both ways it would seem.

Here's the greater mystery to me: the 442-1 came in the same blue plastic box that we've all been used to seeing for years, but the 642-1 came in an old fashioned looking dark blue cardboard box! Serial numbers were factory correct and matched the gun on each box. What's up with that?

Good question...my 442-1 came in the plastic blue box last year. My Sigma .40 SVE, also ordered last year, came in the cheap-o cardboard container.

DonDee · Feb 10, 2012

warrconn said:
Good question...my 442-1 came in the plastic blue box last year. My Sigma .40 SVE, also ordered last year, came in the cheap-o cardboard container.

Yeah, all I can figure is since S&W (as I assume do most gun mfrs.) still uses what I consider to be the antiquated "distributor" system for getting their products to the retailers, I'm guessing that maybe my two came from different distributors who each favored one type box over another and ordered enough to get their way.

photoman · Feb 10, 2012

dla said:
"common knowledge" is sometimes wrong.

Then again, there can be some truth to even an internet legend. With a little bit of research, it's easy to find out that the "smooth" rifled barrels lead easier than the old style broach rifling. That's why this conversation came up in the first place. Does that mean one should not shoot lead bullets in the new style rifling? I don't think so but I would be very careful for signs of excessive leading that can lead to an over-pressure condition. Revolvers, with the barrel-cylinder gap, are going to be more tolerant of any over-pressure condition.

dla · Feb 10, 2012

Photoman44 said:
Then again, there can be some truth to even an internet legend. With a little bit of research, it's easy to find out that the "smooth" rifled barrels lead easier than the old style broach rifling. That's why this conversation came up in the first place. Does that mean one should not shoot lead bullets in the new style rifling? I don't think so but I would be very careful for signs of excessive leading that can lead to an over-pressure condition. Revolvers, with the barrel-cylinder gap, are going to be more tolerant of any over-pressure condition.

Have you ever seen a firearm, any firearm, damaged by bore leading? I have seen a lot of damaged firearms over the years and they all fell into 3 categories: (1) Reloading error - i.e. double-charge, wrong powder, etc. (2) Barrel obstruction - squib, or mud/debris, (3) Case failure - unsupported barrels, head separation, out of battery firing, etc.

I have heard of, but not seen, that lead deposits can build up in front of the leade/start of rifling of some Glocks and prevent complete lockup before firing. This out-of-battery firing can blow out a case, give the shooter's hand an owie, and destroy the Glock frame (1911 shooters get away with busted side panels). There's lots of examples of Glock Kabooms - and there is a lot of really bad forensic science amongst forum experts discussing the source of the kabooms.

I can remember being worried about leading with a Glock 21, as all my experience had been with 1911's. I discovered over time that there is nothing special about the Glock barrel - that any leading was due to the exact same issues as with any other barrel - mainly bullet fit.

I'm sortof surprised that S&W would use poly-rifling on a small revolver since they've been doing ECM for a number of years - must be a cost savings.

Tyrod · Feb 10, 2012

What may be confusing issues here is that some folks believe that dash numbers denote only engineering changes. For anything other than a J frame, that may be true. However, on J frames dash numbers may indicate engineering changes, but they also designate specific model variances. In this specific case, the 442-1 is a current product designation for the no lock 442 with a specific S&W sku#, the 442-2 is the lock model again with a different sku#. The same is true for the 642-1 and -2.

The model 60 no dash was made through the time when barrels were pinned and then unpinned with no change in dash number. Also, the model 60 no dash was made simultaneously along side the model 60-3 usually a Ladysmith and the 60-4 usually a 3" adjustable sight model. To muddy the water even more, I know also that some engineering changes are reflected in J frame dash numbers. So, generally, I ignore dash numbers in J frames and look for the feature I want and let the dash fall where it may.

Lenny_D · Feb 10, 2012

Thanks everyone. It seems I've used the incorrect term for the ECM rifling in the newer smiths when I called it polygonal. I have shot over 1K rounds of hand loaded ammo with the Speer 158 gr. SWCHP and have not noticed any excessive leading in my 442-1. Thanks to Tyrod for that explaination. Thanks to everyone for their help and I'm sorry if I stirred up any trouble with using the "polygonal" term.

LB001 · Dec 10, 2016

Grain OF Salt Time

Az. revolver fan said:
Don't mean to get off subject but Polygonal- type rifling, to my knowledge as a certified Glock armorer, is only used in Glock and H&K handguns. This type of rifling can NEVER be used with lead bullets as it can result in dangerous increases in pressure.

This is another example as to why you should never accept what you read on line as gospel. My Kahr MK9 Elite 98 has polygonal rifling, as do all Kahrs with the possible exception of their economy models. Kahr issues no warning about using lead bullets in their handguns.

joebiker · Dec 10, 2016

Glock also states not to use reloads, wonder if the gun can tell the difference in factory vs. a proper safe reload. Doubt it.

442-1 & polygonal rifling

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