I have two pictures (drawings) to start with and will provide additional information after receiving some comments, criticism's, and the occasional WHY'S.
baldeagle8888

I would venture a guess at a customized or special ordered Model 19.
-It's a round butt so it must be a K frame (N frame round butts didn't exist early enough to be listed in this catagory (pre '61).
-It's got a shrouded barrel, so it would have to be a Model 19 (the only other shrouded barrel K frame with target sights frome this period is the .22 Jet)
-It's a post-war short action with target sights.
-The round butt and lanyard ring would definitely be a special order or a very neat custom job on said revolver.
-The drawing appears to show a 4-screw frame (trigger return spring screw)
-On closer inspection, it shows the very modern style thumb piece. I'm leaning toward a possible new production Model 15 Classic.

Whatever it is, I like it.

__________________
Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

Looks like the Navy (ONI) Model 19s with a lanyard loop added.

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Funny looking front sight.

__________________
Dick

Nice work. From the proportions, it appears to have a 5" barrel, and the cylinder seems short, like a .45 ACP model 25 N frame or similar. The RB frame and lanyard ring are interesting. Looking forward to the answer.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

This is the economists' model.

__________________
David Wilson

Appears to me that someone had fun with a new CAD program.

Yes I would like to know more.

The bore looks tapered. Is it for shotshells or darts?

I had a nice long reply almost done but lost it with a time out from the server, so will be much shorter.
What you see is a 7 shot 40S&W/10MM revolver
with the prototype currently udergoing the machining operations.
Frame material is heat treated 17-4PH SS.
Lock up consists of 4 points, hence my calling it a "Quad Lock. The 4 locations consist of the standard under barrel locking bolt with a 2nd being the Triple Lock bolt. The 3rd location being the standard center pin and the 4th being the a spring loaded plumger of a similar design used in the X Frame.
See additional drawing.

baldeagle8888

Looks like an exercise in creativity rather than practicality. I don't see where this design would be all that practical. The multiple locking points are unnecessary and add complications to manufacturing (but then, if a custom, one of kind piece then who cares). The caliber makes no sense to me when existing revolver calibers are available that will work as well or better.

Why the round butt on such a large gun?

The whole thing holds no fascination for me. But it's not my project. If you have the resources to build it, and you like it, that's all that matters.

Actually, the barrel is 5.3865" long and is of a custom design of mine, as is the entire Revolver and that would include all the dimensions and profiles. The first prototype will be chambered in 40S&W/10MM and is a 7 shot.
The barrels are made from Heat Treated 416R SS and were rifled by McGroven Precision Barrel with "button" rifling and hand lapped.
baldeagle8888

What is it going to cost to manufacture??

I'll try and address each of your comments and hope you take then as written.

As to your first comment concerning creativity versus practicality. Well, I would hope after spending over 1,400 hours of research, measuring, studying and the MCAD design time, there is one heck of a lot of creativity on my part.
Each design feature was thought out and some were selected based upon what I was trying to accomplish from a function stand point, others from their aesthetics and others, just out of curiousity as to what it would look like. I will say that theere is complexity to my design when considering the entire revolver and this in turn creates additional cost. There are some machining cuts that require a 5 or more axis milling machine.

I will tell you that this will consist of more then just "one" revolver being built.

As for my selection of a 40S&W/10MM chambering, I don't even want to get into what has been and never will be the best caliber. That is all in the eye of the beholder.
As for a round butt design, what do you consider so unusal about that.? I will say that you can put rd to sq. grips on but you "Can't" put sq. to rd. on without frame modifications or very oversized grips.
I realized when I started this thread that there would be some who at a minimum would question some or all of what they were seeing, that's fine, we all have our own taste but that doesn't make them better or worst then somebody else's.

The drawing, (3D MCAD file) below attempts to show what I call the "Bridge Cut". Now you can really tell me what you think. Ha Ha.

baldeagle8888

It may be just me, but it seems like a lot of bother and a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Smith already makes a fine 610 that will obviously be and is a lot less expensive to make.

__________________
Dick

Kudos to you for taking on such a project. I hope it turns out better than your expectations. Will the internals be off the shelf S&W parts or of your own design? How do you envision the grips? Finger groove, magna, wood, man made material?

Won't be able to tell you that until a complete working prototype is completed. And then, determining just what features, either added or deleted.

I can tell you that buying the min. order of heat treated 17-4PH SS frame material allows for 7 Frames and cost around $67.00 per revolver, that includes the material cost of the other parts which would be machined from the same raw material with the exception of the cylinders.

The barrels are expensive due to the fact that the barrel shroud dimension determines the overall diameter which is taken from the bore centerline and this requires a minimum diameter of over
2.10" and then on top of that, you need to purchase in a size that is available. In my case, since there was a 8 week wait on barrels, a dia. of 2 1/2" x 120" long piece of material was purchased.
Here again, the surplus material will be removed by water jet and is thought to be scrap.

As I failed to mention in earlier reply's, I had
60"s of material rifled in 40S&W/10MM and 60"'s rifled in 408-40 for a new "Belted" wildcat cartridge that i will be working on . This by the way is in the works but not started yet .

SaxonPig, did you read that, let me know what you'll really true feelings are, I can hardly wait for your responce.

baldeagle8888

I'd be interested in one when they are completed.

I find this a fascinating blend of design and features.
I can pick out elements that I would consider old school like the round butt, triple lock and lanyard ring.I also love the 1/2 under-lug tapered barrel.Your choice of materials material, the button barreling and 4 point locking system are spot on as far as I am concerned.The more supported the lock up the better it will be after time and wear.I can't wait to see this project as a finished item,I would also love to see it in a high polished blacken finished, with some key areas mated.
Penmon

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Will keep you informed with the progress. I already have 5others sold from just from my machinist customers who have seen and looked at the drawings at the machine shop and this, even though I can't quote a price yet.
baldeagle8888

If you look at the (2) Frame 3D files, which by the way do not show a complete machined frame since I can't show any cuts other then 3 axis with my MCAD program but are in fact included on my Machinist MCAD files. The frame top strap and barrel ramp are checkered in the same manner as the model 27 and 627. Am considering checkering of both the front and back of grip frame?? Maybe something that isn't as sharp as the top checkering.
I also will say that my machining tolerances will be much closer and material finish will be much higher quality then you currently see.

baldeagle8888

Good on you for designing something and following it through!

__________________
Tacticool?...NOT!

The ONLY off the shelf S&W main parts that I expect to utilize will be the "Thumbpiece" and "MainSpring" with no modifications, the "Rebound Slide ***'y and the "Cylinder Stop" will also be used but will be required to not exceed a finished thickness of
.254". As for springs and pins, it is anticipated those will be factory in most cases.
As for "stocks"/"grips", all wood and I have drawings that I've created and they include finger groove and non grooved, Magna and a couple of other idea's I have. I've done prototypes in layered basa wood for a much earlier project and are not to difficult to do
It isn't obvious from the non dimensioned drawings but the grip that is part of my design is DIFFERENT in all of it's profile and is approximately 1/8" longer.
For starters, once I get a little further along, I would like to talk with Keith Brown and show him what I have and see if he could/would quote some prices. I KNOW, BUT IT'S ONLY MONEY and at MY AGE, 69, I'M FIGHTING TIME AND I WON"T BE NEEDING THE MONEY, ASSUMING I DON'T RUN OUT BEFORE I"M FINISHED WHEM MY TIME ARRIVES.

baldeagle8888

I am stunned!! That is just a super cool project. NO LOCK!! I certainly would recommend checkering the back strap. The smooth back strap on the newer guns just does not cut it. I would like to find someone to checker a couple of my guns. I doubt I could afford one, but if I could, I certainly would buy one.
I have heard that some earlier stainless guns had galling between the stainless parts. Is this stainless made to avoid that if you have parts made of the same material as the frame?

How about making a few thousand? What are you going to name it?

Smythe & Wassen?

__________________
Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

Off the cuff, after seeing only the first pic., I'd have guessed a SmithnHawk. The barrel and front sight had Redhawk written all over it. Shows just what I don't know. Sounds like a cool project.

__________________
Go big or stay home

Too much tube.... with the round butt it will be muzzle heavy.

Plot the balance point and compensate, but my guess is you need 1.25" less barrel.

A cylinder would be good too....

HI Baldeagle8888,


Looks wonderful..!

Love that round butt.

Say, I see you are in Henderson - I am in downtown Las Vegas.

Are you a full time Gunsmith who also does other things besides this project?

What are you going to do about roll markings, and how much likeness
to S&W are you going to have, before S&W starts to talk about patent
infringment ? Is that going to be an issue ? Or have you already
talked with them about this ? Are you going to be using any standard
S&W parts, like hammers, triggers, rebound slides, etc ?

What exactly are you trying to achieve, with this project ? Do you
think that this will be a better revolver than S&W can design, or is
capable of producing ? You've clearly put a lot of time into it, so is
this just a fun project for you ? Or, do you think that S&W may want
to buy the design from you ? Or, are you setting yourself up to build
specialized revolvers ?

I'm just trying to get my hands around what this is about.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Good for you sir. I say have fun with it and i hope it shoots, "Lights Out". Can't wait to see the finished prototype #1.
As you can tell already, there's always gonna be detractors/naysayers.
But if that's what floats your boat i say go for it and have fun.
Maybe i'll be in a position to buy one from you some time. If the cost
is'nt too prohibitive. I've always liked the .40 s&w cartridge.


Best Regards, Chuck

__________________
They hold no Quarter

What I think is that you have the ability and resources to design and build a custom revolver to your personal specifications and preferences. It will be ghastly expensive. It will suit your tastes perfectly and will likely not appeal to anyone else given the highly personalized nature of the design. If you plan to manufacture this gun for public sales I fear you are doomed to failure. The price would, by necessity, be astronomical. The design would be narrow in appeal. Few, if any, would be interested in buying.

Far too expensive for mass production, this will be a personal statement, a work of art. It is not something that I would want. But it wasn't designed for me.

I'm trying to address all of the comments in a timely manner, so, this reply starts with post #18 by penman.
When I first started this project, I had in my mind primarily the Quad 4 lock up design and strengtening the frame. This was to be accomplished by using the 17-4PH SS. Needless to say, the more I got into these concepts and idea's, the more I decided to change. Hence, some old and some new. I must say in all honesty, cost was not considered as a primary thought but what and how to accomplish an ever expanding design. A dream is a dream or a design is a design, but doesn't mean to much if you aren't willing to carry through with it.
As for galling, etc., with proper heat treatment and fitting of part, this shouldn't be a problem.
Other then using the overall S&W profile, both from the "L" and "N" frames as a guide, everything was done to please and satisfy "MY" taste.
As for being muzzle heavy, that at this point just conjecture. I can understand that being thought from the limited information presented to date but you would need to grip the revolver AND placement of the trigger finger on the trigger, which by the way is approximately 1/8" higher up then the standard S&W "N" frame. Will that compensate for the perceived muzzle weight?? Only will know AFTER the prototype is finished.

My next post will address questions/comments beginning with post #25.

baldeagle8888

Very nice baldeagle8888!

I like your 7-shot, hammer mounted firing pin, no idiot lock revolver concept. Will current Hogue grips for S&W's be compatable with your design? Please PM me when you reach the taking orders stage. Regards 18DAI

baldeagle8888, I don't mean to threadjack but was wondering if you were familiar with the new Merwin Hulbert project. A group is attempting to reverse-engineer the MH revolver as a commercial venture. They have been at it several years without success so far. The only similarity to your project is that they are using CAD and CNC machines. Whereas you are doing something completely on your own, they want to make parts interchangeable with the originals.

There is a very old thread on this S&W site that has some information: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ant...-pictures.html



They also have their own website, which is not particularly informative. However if you glean through it, you can see that they have actually produced some parts:
Merwin Hulbert & Co. Forum: Viewing list of forums
Merwin Hulbert & Co. Forum: Updates, new contact methodology and some pictures




Good luck with your project, it looks interesting!

Beginning with oyeboteb, post #26
No, I'm not a gunsmith.
All of my machining is being done by a machinist friend who has a Fed. Firearms Manufacturer's License and machining business and is located in Pahrump, NV.. This means my project takes back burner to his contract work and is and will take longer then what I would like, but it also permits a much lower cost to me for the machining.

Post #27, mikepriwer

My goal is very simple. Build a prototype that works and once that's accomplished, that will then
permit me to refine and clarify the 1st production
Revolver that may or may not incorporate the cuts and features from the prototpye.

1st production Revolver will be a "Conventional Cut" incorporating the Quad 4 lock up and being 17-4PH SS with I'm assuming all the other features as I've envisioned per the prototype.
2nd production Revolver will be a "Bridge Cut".
Other then some modified machining cuts to leave a bridge of material at the hammer radius, a bridge of material at top of trigger guard and at top of grip and related required slots versus open cuts and a revised side plate.
3rd production Revolver, Same as 1st production revolver BUT frame Material will be Heat Treated 4Ti Titanium
4th production Revolver, same as 3rd production revolver BUT frame material will be Heat Treated 4Ti Titanium

Assuming at this point that I'm successful with my new 408-40 Wildcat cartridge design, then 2 additional barrels and cylinders would be made and fitted to 2 of the 4 production revolvers.

My machinist will be making 2 revolvers for himself.

That's 1 prototpye and 6 production revolvers that I envision. All for personal use and they aren't being sold so any concerns about roll marks, patent infringments are not an issue.

If there are future possible sales, those issues will be addressed at that time.

I was in contact with a S&W representative around a year ago and make several suggestions and they considered them. I was told that any additional investment towards Revolvers at that time was not anticipated.

I should state, I have in the pass, many years ago, suggested to S&W to use Stainless Steel for Revolvers and Mr. Hellstrom, then President sent me a reply indicating reluctance due to more difficult machining. Within 2 years, we had the SS Model 60. Later on, I suggested a 40 caliber with current spec's for revolver, later on presto, the 41 cal. Model 57 and then later, presto again, the Model 610. The problem I have now is two fold, my age and Obama.
Yes, I think this is head and shoulders above any current S&W Revolver. There are no plans to either try and sell the designs to S&W nor
to build customized or specialized revolvers.

If I were to receive requests for purchase's, I would consider such. My guess?? is there may be a small number, maybe 100 or so that could/would want one at the cost one would need to be sold. That has never been my intention to make it a business but would consider making some if I felt I could break even on my investment to generate MY 4 Revolvers.

baldeagle8888

Backstrap serrations?!

To comment on post #28, chud333 and later ones and somemore general information.
I can tell you that every emotion or most I've endured with this project.

I'm somewhat amused by some comments about what would be nice to build or include and can only state, IT IS A LOT OF WORK and RESEARCH.

To give out some information that most commenters may not know or realize.

The same trigger works in both "L" and "N" frames.
That is NOT the case with the hammer. BUT, the interaction between the two, dimension wise, is the same with the hammer dimension changes occurring above the pivot point due to a higher bore line. In fact, the 4 pin locations for all the internal parts are located with the same dimensions as measured from the back and bottom of the cylinder cutout for both frame "N" and "L" sizes.

In some previous comments, something was said that implied a much larger Revolver then maybe a "N" frame.
That is NOT the case. MY GRIP DESIGN does make overall dimensions, Height and Length greater, but EVERYTHING Ahead of grip is smaller. My center of cylinder to center of bore dimension is less then an "N" frame and still permits a 7 shot cylinder designed for as large as a 41 magnum round. At the present time, until I have a working prototype, I'm not going to give out any dimensions. Those were generated with difficult work and if known, there would be a lot fewer items mentioned in the Wish List using current frame sizes.

baldeagle8888

I admire you for following your dream. I like the design and assimilation of both old and new in your prototype. Best wishes for a successful completion of this project. As for your choice of calibers... it's your dream gun! By the way, l like it a bunch.

__________________
Isaiah 55:8-9
Phil. 4:13

In reply to sebago son, #25,
see (3) attached drawings, Barrel End View Profile, Locking Bolt w/Triple lock and Locking Bolt Cap.
As you can see from the barrel drawing, it has concaved sides and tapers down approximately
.10" smaller muzzle diameter then a Model 610. That's not to say it doesn't have mass because due to the Triple Lock bolt, the shroud does give it a greater height dimension then a standard barrel.







to gr7070, post #35
If by serrations, both vertical and horizontal cuts, YES. They won't be diagonal cuts as seen with checkering. That would be way to much time and cost and would require a 9 axis milling operation.

Again, reply to saxonpig, post #29

When you use the term, "ghasty" and/or "astronomical" to describe cost. Until that can be defined with a $ and number attached, I can't agree or disagree, but it's all relative.
I'm not a gun collector and I've seen some S&W Revolvers aqquired for what some would say are ghasty or astronomical figures but the person buying didn't think so.

later
baldeagle8888

Since this thread was moved from "Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961" to "Revolvers: 1980 to Present", there hasn't been any additional comments. This was my original concern when trying to pick the best Discription category to post on. I selected the Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 solely because of the Triple Lock versus the Quad Lock design.
I didn't post my project to prove or state my desgn as being the best or superior to all others, just what I decided to try and do.
I didn't have ANY S&W data such as dimensions and/or tolerences to go by and acquired these by actual measurements taken from guns in hand, an "X" Frame 460, (4) "N" frame and (3) "L" frame revolvers.
As such, I believe I can state, there are NO two production revolvers exactly alike and as such, my reason for not quoting any exact dimensions that I measured and determined to use.
As I previously stated, the drawings with the multitude of features I show are not the only ones I came up with that could be incorporated, just that some were either so minor or as a couple turned out, would be so radical, testing would have been required to prove their merits.
If any forum members would like ANY information concerning my project, or have any questions that because of the knowledge I gained from this undertaking, please send me a PM and I will provide any and all in both a written and drawing response.
baldeagle8888

Is this to be a solid barrel or are you thinking of a sleeve of lighter metal over a steel barrel?

baldeagle888:
Thank you for undertaking this project of creating your dream revolver and for providing so much information about it. I throughly enjoy discussion of mechanical design and manufacturing methods. I eagerly await further discussion and information.

BARREL IS ONE PIECE AND MACHINED FROM 416R SS w/ Button Rifling and hand lapped. In a
previous post, I show a CAD drawing of the barrel from the breech (Frame End).
Understand that CAD drawings in some views are difficult to understand the finished product although I don't think that is the case with the barrel when matched with a side view per the first to drawings posted.
Thanks also to chief38 for your positive comments.
baldeagle8888

We have many brands of cars all that do basicly the primary function. Hauling our butts around. Colt really isnt much competition for s&w nowdays. We all like choices. I noticed the triplelock feature right away.
If technology go`s much farther, I belive it may be with caseless ammo. I also have been intrigued with top breaks with simultaneous ejection. It would be nice if only the fired cases would automaticly be ejected. Gee, we had some of this 150 years ago come to think of it.
I do like your design as it looks like it will take a lot of handwork, and that is why most of us like the older classics.
Good luck and more power to you.

I like muzzle-heavy guns, and think your design would suit me to a T.

Maybe I missed it, but extraction of 40/10mm brass without a 7-shot moon clip would require a spring-loaded extractor star like the Medusa and Korth revolvers used. Is that what you're planning? Or will you also be fabricating moon clips? Or does someone already make them?

Your reasoning on the round butt is the same as S&W's.........you can make a round butt into a square butt, but not the other way around. It makes good sense to me..............as does the lanyard ring.

Will the gun be able to shoot 40's and 10's interchangeably?

I think it's a neat project, and look forward to future updates.

My kid brother was a "grip" in the movie industry. He tired of carrying steel camera sliders and in his spare time, thought about an equivalent using aircraft aluminum. Self-taught CAD and CAM, failed prototypes and set backs, you name it he experienced it.
They all said he was wasting his time. Five years later, his company was a huge success making something that already existed.

Tommy would be telling you: "Forget the naysayers - Go get 'em!"
Well, he wouldn't use those words, it would be more like: " @#% the #!~@%^%$ - go get 'em"

In reply to posts #43 feralmerril, #44 papajohn428 and #45 blujax01
I want to thank you for your words of encouragement.
Later today I will post all 6 CAD machining views that comprise of the YOKE. These will convey some of what I've posted earlier as to what I can show by my MCAD, what machine cuts I can't show or show correctly and that require the need to describe by description to the machinist and so forth. Keep in mind that any drawings and/or files that I show here requires three steps, the first being to capture the CAD file with a program I use called "Snagit", then to transfer that picture into my computer picture file and then into a photobucket file to permit posting, so it takes time.

baldeagle8888

In my opinion, all revolvers should be of round butt configuration.

One can always get grips that will make a RB into a SB, but not the other way around.

To address additional comments/questions. Yes, there will be a large amount of handwork (fitting and finish) required. Keep in mind that most surface cuts require some form, either radius, bevel or grinding to remove rasor sharp edges. In addition, since I'm working on both a small budget and quantity requirement, ALL of my components are machined from raw material and there aren't any that are forged.
Yes to the use of new 7 shot moonclips. I've designed a moonclip for "my" project that will be machined versus a later stamped version and the goal is to reduce the cartridge movement, "play", that current designs encounter with cartridges inserted in clip.
Revolvers will be able to chamber both 40S&W and 10MM auto, the same as the S&W Model 610.
The following 6 drawings/files are one generation from the final machining file and show the YOKE from all 6 machining positions along with personal notes to myself (in green) and "comments to machinist" (in Red)












baldeagle8888

Here are (3) 3D views of the YOKE taken from the (6) YOKE CAD views posted earlier.







Later
baldeagle8888

I have a friend who makes his own design carabiners out of both Ti & aluminum, just cause he likes to , it's not his day job, but he can afford to have a CNC machine in his garage. I think it's cool and place your project in the same category; the "because I can" category. Go for it and I hope you finish it, I'd be tickled to shoot it.

Please tell us it won't have a lock. If not then more power to ya! (smile)

Dave

__________________
RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)