YAWN!! I'm just going to say it... Naaaa... better not....

Hmmmmm... You've been a member here for about a month. Made a few posts and now you're trying to hammer the products... Very interesting...

I've been collecting S&Ws for several decades and I've seen them in all their various manufacturing stages, dash numbers, finishes and calibers. I also own many newer (yes, IL and mims) guns and haven't seen evidence of the all-encompassing problems you assert. The S&W warranty should be emulated by manufacturers of everything.....

I think I'll buy a new S&W today to celebrate your unfounded dissatisfaction...

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Terry

It states in the Owner's Manual the following...

WARNING: DO NOT USE EXCESSIVE UPWARD FORCE
WHEN INSERTING A LOADED MAGAZINE INTO THE
PISTOL. EXCESSIVE UPWARD FORCE COULD CAUSE
THE SLIDE TO MOVE FORWARD, CHAMBERING A ROUND AND
MAKING THE PISTOL READY TO FIRE.

Clickie here and see page 16...

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore...l_10-30-10.pdf

Someone sure is full of them self!! I absolutely cannot believe what I just read...Your going to tell me I didn't see what I saw and then tell me I should believe YOU because you haven't read it on the forums!? Will you ever forgive me for questioning you? Just WOW!

What we want is a quality product for an affordable cost and a great warranty. Smith and Wesson need to get their heads out of the clouds and bring a little reality back into the company. People are not going to like this comparason but its a good one.
Hi-Point Firearms is a small company they make inexpensive firearms. I have two of them. They have never given me any problems at all, ever. Hi-Point gives the guns a lifetime warranty. When you need a part for the gun because you loose a part in shag carpet all you do is call and they ship you the part, no questions asked. They do not want any more money from you, all they want is to make sure their product, that you have works the way it is intended to because it has there name on it and its their reputation. I speak to the same person everytime I call. There is no answering service when they are open, the phone will ring until someone picks up the phone. Whe nthey are closed a machine picks up and says "we're closed call back when we are open". Hi-Point sells you a good gun that works all the time for between $100-$400.
If S&W would get back to the way a fine American company with a great reputation produces a quality product they would not be loosing their buisness to other companies like Glock and Rock Island. If I am going to spend the extra money to buy American prooducts it better be worth the money and stand up to the test of time without fail.
That is what we want.

You have a nice evening, sir.

In short I also believe that the incredible sales of new guns has created some QC issues with S&W, Ruger, Colt, taurus etc. There are 5 options one has.
1. Stop buying news guns altogether. (There are plenty older reliable models are still available.
2. Buy new, take your chances and understand that you may have to use the unlimited lifetime S&W warranty.
3. Write a letter to Smith & Wesson, express your issues and concerns with their QC and ask them what they can do to fix it.
4. Buy other new brands and see #2 above except for the (unlimited lifetime part)
5. Stop buying guns

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John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

You were making perfect sense there for a second...)

It may be a combination of things. Certainly demand for S&W revolvers is at an all time high. We all can see what is coming, and we want a reliable handgun. S&W is the gun of choice for people that know any better.
In addition, it may well be that most first time buyers do not know how to assess quality in a revolver, and if it says "S&W" they buy it and put it in the nightstand drawer.
My situation is not uncommon. I bought a S&W 340PD a few years ago. It would not properly index the cylinders. I suspect the hand was too short. I spoke to S&W and they said it was normal!
I bought this thing new, so it went back to the gunstore, and they agreed with me. It went back to S&W for a repair.
When I got it back it was no better. The cylinder would still not lock up positively. THe shop sent it back again.

This time, S&W must have decided that I was serious, or the gun store owner send a strongly worded message. In any case, it came back working correctly.

Bottom Line: It should never have left the factory TWICE! All the repair work and shipping costs was borne by either the gun store or S&W, but it had to have been a PITA for all concerned, just with the paperwork.

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Fuego

Howdy-
I, too, own many Smiths, and I too, bought mostly older ( pinned and recessed ) examples, though today I picked up a NICE model 10-8 3" round butt in carried some, shot little condition. Upon sideplate removal for close inspection, found the mark of the times- not a HINT of lubricant anywhere. No fine polish , either. After a good dust removal and lube, feels better, but not the equal of my mid 70's Model 15, nor a host of others.
Have TWO Smiths I bought new- a 629 ( 5", full underlug) which shoots fine, handles well, and as far as that goes, is what I feel S&W should have done to begin with ( mind you, that is no complaint ). The other is an AirLite .22 model 317 (8 shot) that shot 4 inches to right of point of aim ( at 7 yards! ) with the rear sight cranked all the way left. Clearly, NOT S&Ws best effort. While it was away for "rehab", I had opportunity to ask why it seemed that a company like S&W would think they could "coast" and rely on their past reputation and be satisfied while putting their good name on products that should have never left the factory? Since when did the customer have to do the only apparent QC checks on the product, and find that MAYBE it was fit for the intended use? The point is, even the sales staff at my favorite shop had commented that Smith seemed to be really "pushing them out, and fixing them later". Guess the current lifetime warranty is a good thing, even if I'm confident I will only need it for new production. The old stuff just seems to go on working with ordinary care.
Just my 0.02

6. Closely inspect a new gun before you buy, looking for the issues real or imagined cited over and over on this forum ad nauseum. Especially if you have just purchased three "lemons" in a two-month span.

7. Trash the manufacturers and ask the government to take care of you because you are not a savvy consumer.

8. View homebrewed "fixes" on the Internet involving hammers, vises and leather, "fix" all your guns, then trade them to some other unsuspecting fellow who will be right along to complain about Smith quality issues.

Every company that has a high demand for their products will produce a few lemons. I had to send a new TALO 686+ back twice, in the first 2 months of ownership. I had the LGS special order it so I couldn't refuse it when I first laid eyes on it. S&W did make it right and that's what counts. I'm happy.

And we on this forum tend to be a lot more knowledgable and critical than the other hundreds of thousands of S&W buyers out there.

Probably not what one would call a representative sampling, huh?

I too am sorry for you and the many others buying and paying big bucks for a poorly built product. This crooked barrel issue has come up many times of late. Ask a good Gunsmith their opinion on a clocked barrel and they'll tell you it's WRONG!

ALL of my S&W are older models and not one of them have a misaligned barrel. I checked them all 3 times and they all were dead on like they are supposed to be. The only one thats ever given me a problem was my 6" 57 that I shot loose after 20K rounds back in 85. Back then S&W did me right on the repairs which included recutting the forcing cone from all of them magnums. The revolver still shoots like a champ to this day.

There are not that may people who buy S&W's and are members of our forum and don't know all of the issues with the newer models. I advise anyone looking for a revolver (especially for SD) to buy an older pre lock model that can be bought for the same price or less than a newer model that may malfunction at a critical time. If they decide to buy a newer model I go with them to check it out for em. About 30% have misaligned barrels, which is a deal buster for me.

S&W's workmanship and quality control have taken a nose dive IMO, yet people keep buying them as they are new to the game in many cases. They are all not bad but way too many have issues that keep me from buying a newer model. I may be missing out on some fine weapons but the ones I have will cover the entire gamet of what I need from them in the different calibers, from .22 - .41 magnum.

If you find anything amiss with your new warranted models send them back and have them repaired. Keep doing it until the gun is right. Let S&W know they have a problem, and they do IMO with their craftsmanship and severe lack of quality control. If it causes a slight increase in money let it be as many a life is depending on the weapon working properly and protecting you and your loved one's lives.

JMHO.

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V/R
Roger / SG

Well said Roger ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Sure you did

hmmm...think i'll stick to smith&wesson...that way i don't have to be calling them to the extent that i recognize who answers the phone

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

+1

+1 also with all those that perfer the older Smiths.

I won't buy a new Smith in any form.

I think it's time for all the anti-S&W people who think they "know it all" to form their own handgun company. It would be comic entertainment to see the product and service they would provide.

You guys need to sell all your offensive early and late S&W handguns to help chill you out a little.... I'm, uh, buyin' these "foul turkey's" any time, any day, willing to pay you the meager sums you think they're worth -- so are others..........

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Terry

Sittin' here enjoying ALL of My S&W revolvers and autos, and not a single harumf uttered.

You are just flat out wrong,have you ever even shot one ? When you make something for 125+ years you will find detractors. And S&W has been making which model for how long ? Colt SAA is the most reproduced revolver ever,why ? What are the problems ? more internet B.S. with no experience.

Yawn..... again....

<edit> This post doesn't refer to the post above. It refers to one that was deleted...

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Terry

I must be a lucky individual. Out of a dozen S&W's over 30 years, the worst problem I had was a single stovepipe out of a 410.

I never had a problem with a S&W either till this, its unfortunate too. WHat did you pay for your .410, I have been looking for one. The only ones i can find local are single shots.

Here's a good idea for you Curmudgeons, don't buy any new guns since inspecting them prior to buying them is such a hassle and an affront for you. It will keep the prices down for the rest of us.

I've bought new 8 S&W's in the last two years, including a 686 that's as nice as any of the older Smith's I own. I sent one back due to a timing issue it developed after a few rounds, I got it back 100% fixed in less than 10 days.

Seriously, just don't buy them and leave those of us who do check a gun out before buying to do what we think is right. That way everyone is happy. Why is that an issue?

I'd like to have a hand put together gun for $400-$500 too, but those days are gone. MIM is here to stay or prices will start at 1k or so with long lines waiting to pick theirs up.

I think I'll pick up a lottery ticket tomorrow.

May open their eyes and bring them back to producing a quality handgun that doesn't need the Lifetime waranty! JMO

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V/R
Roger / SG

Your point about high demand may be valid, but I dont remember hearing about it if it happened, but there was no internet back then. But back in the 70's, post Dirty Harry, Gun Shops couldnt keep Model 29's on the shelf, plus a very high percentage of LEO's were using some form of S&W 357 magnum or 38. I dont recall Smith trying to hurry guns out the factory and cutting corners.

I would say that S&W quality control was probably at it's worse in the late 80's and early 90's after the LEO market for revolvers fell through the floor and everyone wanted that newfangled cutting edge semi auto or plastic gun

[IMG][/IMG]

These are my four. All new and all great. Sorry for your problems but mine are good. I did have a question about the 638 so Smith paid me to send it in. They corrected the issue and sent it back in perfect shape. As it turns out I had asked them to fix something within spec but they did what I asked anyway. I had Ruger's go bad and they were fixed also so I believe the gun makers are struggling to keep up but I do wish I did not have to be their Qc. Considering the gun's I end up with I still think it is worth the rare inconvenience. As far as Colt is concerned, I handled one of their mini 1911 chambered in 9mm I believe. Very disappointing. Sharp edges and a creepy trigger. I will stick with new S&W, I don't like buying other peoples problems.
Frank.

410. not mine, I sold mine to a friend many years ago.

I have purchased an M&P 9, Model 617, Model 629, Model 63, SW1911E, Model 60 Pro Series, Model 36 Classic Series... all of them new... since 2009, and every one has been functionally flawless, and cosmetically beautiful. I just can't attribute that to luck (particularly in light of my utter lack of luck in all other endeavors...)

My 8 other used Smith and Wessons are also holding up well....and some of them have quite a bit of mileage.

I only own Smith and Wesson handguns currently. I've had Sigs, Springfield Armory, Rugers and Colts...but they're gone now... traded or sold to facilitate the acquisition of a new (or new to me) Smith and Wesson.

I had to return my M&P 15-22 for a known problem, and the customer service was polite, professional; the repairs were quick and resulted in a firearm that was better than before it broke. The turnaround time couldn't have been more prompt.

Might just be me, but I'm hooked.

I ain't going anywhere...anytime soon.

The Big OX makes some strong points the vast majority of us have experienced. I have to wonder, after reading many of the responses on this thread, how much attitude has made a difference in the way S&W customer relations has handled many of these different, and in a few cases, inflamitory complaints.

Sure, we all want a trouble free, precision built, lifetime durable, totally hassle free, super accurate, aesthetic masterpiece, and above all less costly guns.

It just can't happen and won't happen with any mechanical object today.

We will never again see the hand finishing that used to be from S&W. It was the only method then but one has to wonder if the various technologies had been available then that are available today if hand fitting would have been deemed necessary. I doubt it....

People need to realize economic and political pressures against manufacturers like S&W demand they reduce all costs-- materials, labor, R&D, advertising, marketing, legal, retirement, taxes -- all critical aspects of their business or they no longer in business. We've seen federal environmental laws imposed that have negatively impacted issues like the quality of bluing on guns. Unlike the banks and auto industries, ain't nobody going to bail the firearms manufacturers out in a financial crisis!

When I see complaint threads like this one I have to wonder how aware these posters are that the firearms industry may be on the very edge of extinction. Their negative attitudes and corresponding threats of being non-consumers can only serve to disrupt the new gun buying market. They appear to be too uninformed to realize the firearms industry will never again be what they want it to be. It can't!!

The vast majority of my large collection is made up of S&W's considered by these same people as being from "the good old days." They are, in many cases, fine examples.... but don't think for a moment they didn't have issues of their own in their day, and they were without the support and outstanding coverage of the current S&W lifetime warranty.

So guys, if you want a durable modern gun combined with the hand fitting of the 60's and 70's have your new purchase S&W firearm custom fitted by a qualified gunsmith. It's your choice. But expect to pay a thousand or two more in inflated value dollars for the gun quality you're looking for. Quit complaining about an unchangeable issue others of us are finding acceptable, and in some ways a better product in this current political and economic environment.

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Terry

Yes I do own other S&W handguns which work and some of them are in this picture. The coveted S&W handgun which is on it second trip back for repairs is the black one on the lower left... That logo on the side isn't from Ruger, it isn't from Glock, it is from S&W.

Not all of S&W products work as advertised so don't get upset when someone posts about a S&W gun which doesn't work. I am not a "troll" because I bought a faulty handgun and posted about it.

I have been lucky with most of my firearm purchases and it is a rare occasion for me to have one malfunction. S&W built me one which has malfunctioned TWICE in two months. That for me is outside the norm for a product which is designed to function when called on to defend my life.

I guess I'll have to limit my S&W posts to only those handguns which work.

Edmo

All my S&W's are older ones except for my Thunder Ranch Model 21 and my Model 21 that is not marked with Thunder Ranch. I don't like the IL either, but I carry my unmarked model 21 most of the time (always armed). When I go to the back country I carry one of my Lew Horton 44 mags. Never had a problem with either of these two newer model 21s. Both shoot to point of aim. They have become my two favorite revolvers. When I read all the negative comments I'm not sure what to think having never had a problem.

I just read a different thread where the OP has a stove-piping problem with a new M&P 9. Three of the first six responses included "send it back" while not one person mentioned to this new shooter that the problem may be "limp-wristing".

I would find quite ironic if these clocked barrels were due to astigmatisms!

It is the way of Internet forums. Some people encounter a problem and go all histrionic about it. Others deal with the problem in a calm and systematic way and move on. The histrionic ones are more noticeable because they are so noisy, but the their problems are seldom representative of what most people will encounter.

I have been buying Smiths since I bought my Model 29-2 back in 1968. There have been good ones and bad ones in any decade I have bought guns. Back in the '70's almost all guns I checked had timing issues, brand new from the factory. Actions were gritty and any Smith bought new needed to be smoothed in order to be decent enough to shoot. Guns in the '90's almost always have hand/ratched interface tightness in the last part of the pull. Now we have barrel center issues and firing pin issues. I love Smiths, but I always check them to make sure they time properly and have no obvious issues before I buy. Well, except for on line purchases. I just have to take my chances with them. From my limited experience and information gleaned here, I think guns up until around 1970, and guns of the 1990's are probably the best. Still many need some cleaning, or smoothing to function the way I want them to. What I cannot understand is, with all the modern machinery and tools, that Smith cannot line up a barrel properly dead center, ever time, make a gun that fires ever time like the old timers would, and make the cylinder holes line up perfectly with the barrel.

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Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

PA Reb,

I am not an expert, but my limited observation supports your characterization of the quote. I am not sure what Andy meant by "the later ones," but I used to own both a DS and an Agent made in the eighties when they were parkerizing them (or at least it looked that way), and they had the BEST trigger pulls I've seen on a Colt revolver.

I have not had a Colt go out of time on me, which I cannot say for my older Model 37, and I have one of the first 642's which went back to the factory right after I bought it, because it didn't carry up on all chambers when cocked slowly. I really don't know whether a Colt needs timing more often than a Smith, but it does lock up tighter, which may be why they dominated the bullseye circuit back when revolvers were competitive.

Both brands are pretty good, and both companies have had periods of problems. My limited observation, including rejecting three or four new Model 63 revolvers before finding an acceptable one, was that Colt never sank quite as low as S&W during the problem periods.

Others may differ.

520

Gotta laugh about that one, blujax. Every iron sighted pistol or rifle I own has the rear sight left of center because of my astigmatism, some as much as 6 MOA.

Maybe it's time to stop blaming QC for these issues. Gone are the days of "burning the toast and scraping it" to make it right. If there are truly problems with the apparent quality of this product, then blame must go to the design of the product or the manufacturing process. Not possible for any company to inspect quality into their product and expect to stay in business. Smith & Wesson, I'm sure, is looking at these field issues constantly and tweaking the design and or process to achieve acceptable levels of customer satisfaction.

You and Da are pretty wise guys... I just read in this mornings business section how S&W stocks jumped a $1.29 a share and the profits are up like 23.8%.... must be all those M&P's they're selling!! We all knows it ain't 4566's....

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Jack C

Its the new rifles coming out and the deal with Apex there chief. When the M&Ps came out there stock took a major hit. Do you own any stock or did you look this all up by your pretty little self, cupcake.

More funny stuff, hey everyone he's a comedian too!! You really are clueless ...... aw never mind, I almost thought I was reliving my childhood. You know..... when we call the other kids names and try to intimidate them... but I'll refrain from retalliating.

But then again, those are some flattering remarks.... if I was your boyfriend... if you're flirting with me, I'm not that kinda guy, you'll have to look elsewhere..

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Jack C

Hmmmmm, good detective work Kenny

I would see the OP on the Glock, Keltec or Taurus forums, but I don't own any.

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Sure you did

"Give the governor a 'harrumph'..."

Good, Fast, Cheap You can only pick two.

Wish the mods would lock this thread... seems like alot of people need some cheese with their whine!

Nope they can keep the food products, I just want S&W to correctly fix my revolver. I guess I'm the odd-ball, but I want a self-defense handgun to go BANG everytime I pull the trigger! Seems like a minor detail to some, but the main detail for me.

I don't think that is too much to ask from S&W or is it?

Edmo

I am on your side Edmo! I was just poking a little fun, at the people who are getting all worked up, in this thread!
I think this thread has been rehashed enough at this point in time.

No problems, and I agree... This one has run it's course.

I like your screen name and I'm an extreme fan of tupperware. The local cop supply shop is having their annual "Glock Days" today and tomorrow, so I'm headed down to get yet another one of those darned things.

I bet it will work straight out of the box!

Edmo

hmmmmm, what a surprise..

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Jack C