.357 mag and overpenetration

Robert B · Mar 23, 2014

I have a .357 snub, and I plan on running 125 gr .357 Gold dots in it. I found a lot of velocities out of the SP101 2 1/4 inch bbls on the internet. They range from 1200+ to 1250. That might give me about 1220 fps out of my model 60. I have a Speer catalog from 2008. It shows this round penetrating 15-23 inches at a velocity of 1189 fps. The catalog shows expansion from .55 to .40 depending on bare gel versus heavy clothing.

What do you guys/gals think about using this round? How about overpenetration issues? Thanks.

Yorkie Man · Mar 23, 2014

I guess it would depend on what you were shooting into and if there was any barrier material in front of your target. I have shot through intended targets before during a fire fight and even though it turned out OK I still think about that to this day.

Mike

DR505 · Mar 23, 2014

I'd me more worried about the multiple rounds fired in a gunfight that completely miss their intended target. Over-penetration is overrated.

AKAOV1MAN · Mar 23, 2014

DR505 is absolutely right. A stray round will cause you much more potential grief than over penetration. A good 125 gr .357 round out of any snub(properly placed) should stop in any but the skinniest human target. I use primarily Buffalo Bore ammo which is built for snub guns, and my (admittedly anecdotal) tests indicate that over penetration even with .357 ammo is pretty much a non issue. I can say with some authority that properly expanded or "mushroomed" ammo will stay in the target or expend almost all its damaging force in the target and will exit with not much energy left. This is also very true of the .38 special SWC HP +P 158 gr "Chicago" or "FBI" load, which I use also. I have used it in a number of armed confrontations on duty and it has worked as advertised each time. The only 125 gr HP .357 ammo I have so used has been from a 4" barrel and it did penetrate, but with so little remaining energy that the slugs were easily recovered either on the ground or in the offenders' clothing. In only one case did the round penetrate (through an arm) with remaining lethal force, and that was fortunately to the offenders' partner. They guy with the arm wound (it did a nice job of shattering his arm bones), was convicted of felony murder of his partner in crime and did 30 years with one working arm. Moral of this homily: Hit center of mass, always.

carl3989 · Mar 23, 2014

The historical perspective:

DR505 said:
I'd me more worried about the multiple rounds fired in a gunfight that completely miss their intended target. Over-penetration is overrated.

Amen to that brother. If my memory serves me correctly wasn't the .357 Mag. developed by S&W specifically for penetration? The 1930s had law enforcement officers ( FBI for example) frustrated with their weapon's failure to penetrate automobiles being used by criminals escaping after robberies. S&W response was the introduction of the .357 Mag. and their claim was that its rounds would even penetrate an automobile's engine block. Go figure.

Alk8944 · Mar 23, 2014

carl3989 said:
Amen to that brother. If my memory serves me correctly wasn't the .357 Mag. developed by S&W specifically for penetration? The 1930s had law enforcement officers ( FBI for example) frustrated with their weapon's failure to penetrate automobiles being used by criminals escaping after robberies. S&W response was the introduction of the .357 Mag. and their claim was that its rounds would even penetrate an automobile's engine block. Go figure.

What you are thinking of is the .38-44 and the Heavy Duty ca. 1929. The .357 Magnum was originally intended as a hunting cartridge.

I have had several chances to try full power .357 Magnum loads against both engine blocks and cast iron bath tubs. Against the engine blocks it was 158 LSWCGC that chronographed 1520 FPS shot from an 8 3/8" Model 27 at less than 10 feet. Even with several hits in the same area there was no damage done! Some of the shots against the bath tub did penetrate, but not all. Anyone who says a .357 will penetrate an engine block, after penetration the body/radiator/etc. is full of it!

rwsmith · Mar 23, 2014

As per a recent video....

As per a recent video someone posted, it's easy for a round to hole a thin crankcase, but don't plan on penetrating the cylinder head. This is pretty irrelevant in self defense. With proper ammunition (like Gold Dots) there may be over penetration problems if you are attacked by Olive Oyl.

oberon · Mar 23, 2014

Properly placed hits are the preferred tactic, indeed.
Even so, misses would be lees of a hazard if they would give up their kinetic energy easily and quickly.
I run Federal NyClad HP.38 specials with belief that they will act like dead lead if they get away, and that they will do likewise when right on target. I don't intend to miss, but in my imagination, I would hope that any misses will fall harmlessly as soon as they strike wall & studs, etc. Maybe wishful thinkin', but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Abbynormal · Mar 23, 2014

I have NEVER heard of over penetration with a .357 Magnum under 4"!

The mfg's always base the V on a 4/6/8" test stand barrel under optimum conditions and I've yet to see a factory round on a chronograph come close (always on the low side) to factory published numbers.

A shorter than 4" barrel will give you less V (tests have shown <50 fps/in per less inch of barrel).

I'm sure that you are aware that .357's under 4" tend to drop V quicker as the powder isn't as efficiently burned. Muzzle flash is the result. While some mfg's load rounds especially for >4" barrels (quicker burning powder) the gap between +P, +P+ and .true .357

American1776 · Mar 23, 2014

Over-penetration is something that has been 'built in' to the '4 rules of gun safety'. 'Be sure of your target, and the BACKSTOP'.

That being said, the main reason we want good penetration in our SD rounds is because our shots that need to stop the threat immediately are not always shots that will be perfect frontal-position shots. Many times, our defensive shots will be from various angles to the aggressor, who may be moving sideways or rolling backward or to the side. That means our rounds will need to go through an arm, possibly some heavy bone, then into the chest cavity, travel laterally through muscle and sinew, and still have enough energy to reach the heart or other major organs.

Any round that will reliably do this, will probably overpenetrate in a frontal shot.

Being aware of the backstop is the most important thing.

Edmo · Mar 24, 2014

DR505 said:
I'd me more worried about the multiple rounds fired in a gunfight that completely miss their intended target. Over-penetration is overrated.

This is the truth of the matter...

Most of us over estimate our ability to hit with every round fired in a defensive encounter. We optimistically think we are going to hit center of mass with each shot.

The misses will be the ones that cause more collateral damage than the over-penetrating hits.

Edmo

Kilibreaux · Mar 24, 2014

Robert B said:
I have a .357 snub, and I plan on running 125 gr .357 Gold dots in it. I found a lot of velocities out of the SP101 2 1/4 inch bbls on the internet. They range from 1200+ to 1250. That might give me about 1220 fps out of my model 60. I have a Speer catalog from 2008. It shows this round penetrating 15-23 inches at a velocity of 1189 fps. The catalog shows expansion from .55 to .40 depending on bare gel versus heavy clothing.

What do you guys/gals think about using this round? How about overpenetration issues? Thanks.

Use the most powerful round money can buy...THAT is what I think and what I do.
IF the round completely penetrates (a VERY good thing) and the bullet ends up hitting someone way out there...so? The reality is the person who started the situation will be charge with the "murder" of any "innocent bystanders."

It only takes about 20 seconds paying attention to the news to see that the Fresno PD pumps HUNDREDS of rounds into a house, car, trailer - whatever without hitting ANYONE other than the intended recipient!

The notion of carrying WEAK ammo because it MIGHT penetrate the ******* and MIGHT hit someone, which MIGHT result in a lawsuit is so overblown as to be ridiculous.

Kilibreaux · Mar 24, 2014

If you're THAT worried then don't carry a firearm!!!!!

gwalchmai · Mar 24, 2014

The thought of a .357 out of a M60 hurts my hand.

elpac3 · Mar 24, 2014

.357 over penetration

Back in the day - we were trained to use the engine block of our patrol cars as a defense against incoming rounds as nothing in the way of commercial handgun or rifle ammo was going to go through the block. The other drill was to have your drivers window rolled down if you were going to use the car door as a barricade.

When on duty, I carried a 4" model 19 with 137 grain SuperVel ammo. This round would go through a car door at 50 feet with the window down (as verified by personal testing on old cars in the local junk yard).

As always, you have to be sure what is behind your intended target before you fire - sometimes you may not be able to return fire due to the high risk of hitting someone behind the intended target.

At close range the rounds will go through a human target as we experienced one night in a close encounter inside a residence. When the smoke cleared there was a fist sized group of six that went though the perp and into the refrigerator door.

chipking · Mar 24, 2014

What DR505 said.
Chip King

Doug M. · Mar 24, 2014

Remember also that over-penetration as a concept is a product of the time in which it arose (now 50+ years ago). Bullet science was primitive at best, and a SWC at magnum velocities was likely to go through an offender. With modern JHPs, the risk is far less. I'd be more concerned about how ugly the round is to shoot well, as misses are a more likely issue.

wildenout · Mar 24, 2014

Have a neighbor who was a highway patrolman before I was even a twinkle, he is a great guy and has some crazy stories about the .357. He says it's the "perfect man-killer" round, and that he has indeed seen overpentration with FMJ rounds. I wouldn't think a Hallow point would though, unless you got someone really skinny coming after you.

Lt JL · Mar 24, 2014

Shooting a Model 60 with hot .357 loads almost guarantees a miss after the first round. That's because you are going to feel like somebody took a sledge to your hand after that first round. You don't need that much ooomph, get a good .38 like the short barrel gold dot 135, it'll solve all your issues, and your arm won't be numb for a week.

rwsmith · Mar 24, 2014

I should add.....

I should add that to me the ideal SD round is a low end .357 with a jhp/Gold Dot/XTP type bullet. I don't expect people here to wear heavy winter clothing, follow up shots should be better than with a mag load and over penetration won't be a problem.

.357 mag and overpenetration

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