The J frame in Combat

[tacotime]

Just wondering what what the members may know in the way of examples of the J frame used in the real critical situations.

[federali]

You might look up the shooting death of Sgt. James O'Sullivan, retired, who intervened in a robbery at a Radio Shack in lower Manhattan NY, while armed with a Model 36.

Man Is Given Life Sentence In '92 Killing Of Ex-Officer - NYTimes.com

In my opinion, the Model 36, of which I own one, is a personal defense weapon and should not be used to try to fix the world's felonious problems.

[NYlakesider]

Well the most famous that I know of J fame was used successfully by a South Vietnam general during the war to execute a prisoner. (Sort of Combat)

If I remember right he was considered to be a spy! The picture proved it worked quite well!

[7shooter]

Arlene Beckels was in a shootout in a NYC beauty shop robbery against two vermin. She was off duty and was carrying a j frame. I saw a video of a re-enactment that was amazing. It may be on tube.

[charlie sherrill]

In 1971 myself and a plainclothes officer "Officer Mike" answered a call involving a man with a gun. I was in uniform. When we found the guy he was looking at me as he pulled a .22 caliber revolver from his pocket. Officer Mike already had his model 38 Smith out and shot the guy through the heart with a reverse wadcutter nanoseconds before he could get off a shot. There was no need for me to fire my model 58 as there was no longer a threat. Officer Mike later sold me the model 38 for $50.00 complete with Tyler T and I still carry it occasionally. There is some carry wear but it still functions well. Maybe Junior can post a picture sometime today.

[ChazFraz]

Bernhard Goetz, NYC subway shooter, back in '80's used the 38 caliber Model 38 Airweight to shoot 4 attackers. He served 8 months in prison for carrying an unlicensed firearm. He also had legal fees and lawsuits to deal with.

Use of a gun is the last resort.

[nawilson]

Originally Posted by federali

In my opinion, the Model 36, of which I own one, is a personal defense weapon and should not be used to try to fix the world's felonious problems.

This is excellent advice...

I believe Ed Lovette's book "The Snubby Revolver" had real world examples of their use. If you haven't read it, I can strongly recommend it.

[Shorty 45 MK2]

Originally Posted by nawilson

This is excellent advice...

I believe Ed Lovette's book "The Snubby Revolver" had real world examples of their use. If you haven't read it, I can strongly recommend it.

Highly recommend this book.

Ed Lovette gives at least three examples of a J-frame being used, one as recent as 05 (I believe) in Chicago with a metro incident.

[Old cop]

In 1974 I was armed w/my issued Colt DS (about the same size as the J) and became engaged in a running gun battle w/three men who just held up a liquor store. Hiding behind my cruiser I used the little Colt to put one of the bad guys down. Other responding officers took care of the other two.

While not the best to go into a fight with it will do the trick if necessary. I carry a 442 or Model 38 in retirement.

[ISCS Yoda]

In my opinion, the Model 36, of which I own one, is a personal defense weapon and should not be used to try to fix the world's felonious problems.

While it is true that a J-frame is a personal defense weapon I think it is very unfair to suggest that it not be used if you walk into the middle of an armed robbery, especially if you're a peace officer, retired or not. There is an argument to be made that if nobody is being shot at you just can let it happen and report the event to the police after the fact - but a retired LEO is going to have a VERY hard time doing that.

Well the most famous that I know of J fame was used successfully by a South Vietnam general during the war to execute a prisoner. (Sort of Combat)

If I remember right he was considered to be a spy! The picture proved it worked quite well!

Yes, it was an excellent shot.....hmmmm....do I mean the photograph or......something else? And at the time just being in Vietnam was combat!

Bernhard Goetz, NYC subway shooter, back in '80's used the 38 caliber Model 38 Airweight to shoot 4 attackers. He served 8 months in prison for carrying an unlicensed firearm. He also had legal fees and lawsuits to deal with.

Use of a gun is the last resort.

I am uncertain of how the conclusion fits into the scenario. Mr. Goetz used the gun as a last resort; he had been attacked before, IIRC, and just being on the subway was unnerving for him. So, for his purposes, when the gang attacked him he was at the time and place of last resort, and the jury agreed with him.

Of course he had legal fees to deal with. First off, it was New York City! He had to know that getting caught with a gun, never mind using it, was going to involve the justice system and cost him money. It's not like he was on a train in downtown Dallas, Texas. But he decided a gun was the best solution to protecting himself. Bad place to do it; good idea at the time.

Goetz was convicted solely on the one count of carrying an unlicensed weapon - the jury nullified all of the rest of the case, correctly in my opinion, but they could not get past the black letter law that said he was not supposed to be carrying or even possessing a gun. So they threw the prosecution a bone and convicted Goetz on the impossible to argue against ordinance.

However, to get back to the question, he WON the gunfight/attack. So the J frame did it's job.

Personal defense in extremis. Good for him!

***GRJ***

[ColbyBruce]

Originally Posted by Old cop

In 1974 I was armed w/my issued Colt DS (about the same size as the J) and became engaged in a running gun battle w/three men who just held up a liquor store.

You sure know how to pick a fight, don't you, LOL?

[ISCS Yoda]

Originally Posted by Old cop

In 1974 I was armed w/my issued Colt DS (about the same size as the J) and became engaged in a running gun battle w/three men who just held up a liquor store. Hiding behind my cruiser I used the little Colt to put one of the bad guys down. Other responding officers took care of the other two.

While not the best to go into a fight with it will do the trick if necessary. I carry a 442 or Model 38 in retirement.

Thank you for your service and WELL DONE!!!! Nicely done with that "other brand".....

***GRJ***

[STCM(SW)]

A JCRR cop I worked with told me of a joint drug bust he was on.
He was a big guy, 6'3", 255.
He was at a side door and kicked it in and was looking at a guy with a shotgun aimed at him.
He told me "I don't know why he hesitated, but I didn't, fired my S&W ******* (M36-1 3") and was still pulling the trigger even though it was dry when the rest of the guys(LEO's) grab my arm."
He said he was shaking for some time after it was all over.

[federali]

In my opinion, the Model 36, of which I own one, is a personal defense weapon and should not be used to try to fix the world's felonious problems.[/QUOTE]

Some explanation is in order. In the interest of brevity, I tend to try to keep it short and sweet. If armed with a Model 36, actually, mine is the Model 37, I have but five shots. In the O'Sullivan case, he apparently thought he was taking on two gunmen but missed two back-up gunmen, ( a major tactical error) making it four against one with a five-shooter.

The O'Sullivan shooting reinforced for me, the need to have something bigger and better. Yes, I carry the Model 37, more often the Kahr P9 but when I know I'm stopping at local convenience stores, I generally carry my Glock 19. Even then, I try to remember a lesson I learned from the NYPD shooting staff which they called the "Plus One" theory: If you see one gunman, expect a second, if you see two, expect a third, etc. The same applies for weapons.

[mc5aw]

If I anticipate entering a combat situation, I will be armed with considerably more than a J frame.

[federali]

Especially for CCWs, you also have the valid option of not responding to a robbery if your tactical observation of the situation leaves you little chance of succeeding.

Is it just a robbery or do the robbers intend not to leave witnesses? If you are ordered to the floor, face down, ordered to strip or if one robber gives a signal or command to an accomplice regarding the hostages, If they turn violent without resistance, you may then have no choice but to go for it. Execution of hostages sometimes follows the above actions and should be a warning sign that you must act, regardless of what you're carrying.

Likewise, most robbers just want the loot. Don't get drawn into a shooting because the jerk behind the counter elects to shoot it out. He's largely untrained and may start firing at you also unless he knows you. Your life is worth more than a fist full of greenbacks.

Here in the forum, we may calmly dissect these shooting scenarios, even respectfully disagree with each other. But in the real world, it will all happen in a matter of seconds. As Bill Jordan used to say, there are no second place winners---he's the guy leaving under the bed sheet. Yes, I use my Model 37 but I select my carry guns based upon my anticipated activities for that day. But, when my wife is weak and sends me out after dark for a Carvel, no Model 37. It's the Glock 19 or my S&W MP, whichever is more convenient.

[eb07]

Originally Posted by federali

You might look up the shooting death of Sgt. James O'Sullivan, retired, who intervened in a robbery at a Radio Shack in lower Manhattan NY, while armed with a Model 36.

Man Is Given Life Sentence In '92 Killing Of Ex-Officer - NYTimes.com

In my opinion, the Model 36, of which I own one, is a personal defense weapon and should not be used to try to fix the world's felonious problems.

An UZI vs a j-frame is never a favorable situation.