Smith 686 Competitor Lew Horton price advice

[Jamesatrange]

I saw a Smith 686 competitor which was the original performance center competitor model. I read Lew Horton had them built. It has a Leupold non adjustable scope and nice wood combats on it. It has an oak case but I'm not sure it was what came with the gun. Someone had the side plate and cylinder engraved with the factory laser engraving which I think subtracts from the value and originality of the gun. Trigger is very nice, been shot but not abused. Missing front and rear sights from when scope was mounted. What do you think it's worth? I can't find much about them. Thanks go advice.

[socal s&w]

Horton did have them made, at least in 1991.
I don't believe that they came with a wooden box, the only 2 that I have seen came in a blue plastic box, those were from circa 1991.
From what I can recall, there were about 400 made in 1991 and they were consecutively numbered. The original cost was $1,100.
I have one from 1991, number 69.
It is a very good shooter and my go to gun most every range trip. It has seen a shade over 30K rounds since my purchase of it new in 2005 from a out of business gun shop buy-out by a local shop (old, new stock). Missed getting it's twin by one day, it was number 70. Sure would liked to have bought them both.
They were not engraved and have iron sights on them when new, dovetail target front and standard Smith & Wesson adjustable rear.
I paid full price for it ($1,100) since it was brand new. If that helps in your cost question.
She sports a set of Hogue Big-Butts and a 30mm tube Leupold/Gilmore Red Dot sight in silver and black.
I'd post a picture, but not familiar with that here as I do not have PhotoBucket any longer. If anyone would like to let me know how to do that, I would appreciate it by the way.

[Jamesatrange]

This one is serial AAC769* and says 686 no dash is that Similar to yours? does yours have the same serial beginning.

[socal s&w]

Computer is acting up, I have sent you two PM's, so I hope that they make the trip and answer your question Jim.

However, no that is not the same number start, mine starts with a PC.

mike

[SmithNut]

As mentioned by social s&w above, the original Competitor had a prefix of PCCxxxx and was distributed by Lew Horton. There was another version called the Hunter at the time, not much is discussed about them, they were essentially the same gun but came Magna ported (as I recall) and had an unfluted cylinder, some were delivered with a Nikon scope. I do not know the prefix for that gun, nor the product code.

As for the Competitor, as a very early PC offering it still had the square butt gripframe, with the heavy slab barrel. It was delivered in a blue plastic box with hinged box. Product code was 170015.


Should look like this:


Here's a pic of the M686 Hunter flyer.

[SmithNut]

Originally Posted by Jamesatrange

This one is serial AAC769* and says 686 no dash is that Similar to yours? does yours have the same serial beginning.

Curious, does this gun have the PC emblem on it? That serial number doesn't look like a PC serial number, the AAC looks more like a standard production prefix and the number "769x" would be way too high for a PC offering, many of which were very low production numbers. I'm wondering if someone found a Competitor barrel and had it mounted on a standard production M686?

Do you have pics??

[Jamesatrange]

It does have the PC emblem like yours. The gun was at a shop so no pics. Wondering if it's a one off that someone at Smith had built prior to a Lew Horton order. I don't want to over pay for a FrankenSmith.

[g-dad]

Here's social s&w awesome 686:

[Jamesatrange]

I guess I'm still puzzled what it's history is.

[jjbrewst1]

Originally Posted by Jamesatrange

I guess I'm still puzzled what it's history is.

What is the shop asking for it. Maybe then we could help a little value wise.

[Jamesatrange]

$1100.00. Sorry

[SmithNut]

Originally Posted by Jamesatrange

I guess I'm still puzzled what it's history is.

Short of a factory letter ($50 and a long wait at the moment), you can do some investigation to see if you can get more info.
I'd call S&W (800-331-0852, option #7 for Customer Service), talk to a live rep (may take a couple calls), and ask them to look up the Product Code with the serial number you have. If the product code lines up with the Competitor, then you should be OK, it's always possible that some weird things happened in the early days of the PC.

Also, you can contact Lew Horton, ask them to look up that serial number to see if it came through them and get some additional information.

Good luck on your search. It's tough to establish a value on something that is "different" from what we know based on observations.


Just a note, there are some early PC guns that had "standard" production product codes, so the above suggestion may not be conclusive, but it could possibly assist in determining what you are looking at.

[jjbrewst1]

I think at 1100 you rally can't go wrong. Offer a Grand and see what happens. S&W can get you the dovetail front and prob rear sight.

[Jamesatrange]

I may do that, the dealer bought a large collection from a widow and I'm sure has some room to move.

[SmithNut]

Originally Posted by jjbrewst1

I think at 1100 you rally can't go wrong. Offer a Grand and see what happens. S&W can get you the dovetail front and prob rear sight.

IF it's real, and you can get it close to that price, I'd say go for it.

Although mine isn't for sale, it wouldn't be sold for even twice that amount, it's the best shooter I own.

[jstanfield103]

Beautiful Revolver. I wish the new ones like mine came with the un-fluted cylinder

[socal s&w]

Thanks to g-dad for the picture posting help.

I contacted Horton to find out what I now know about my revolver, they were very helpful in tracking down the serial number, date of manufacture and quantity made for that run.

Just so we are clear, I sent mine back to it's originator to have the unfluted cylinder installed right after I bought it in 2005. I just like the look, some don't. Of course I could always switch it back as I still have the fluted cylinder as well.

Some would also say that shooting this would be like shooting a brick. Not true, this is a very good shooting gun, that's what the weights are all about, balance.

I would do as suggested, offer less than asking price and see where that goes. It is odd though that it has engraving.

[Kernel Crittenden]

Those of you who have the PCCxxxx marked guns, those were -3's?

[socal s&w]

I can only vouch that mine with the PCC serial number is in fact a dash 3, yes. As stated, according to Horton, there were 400 in that particular run in 1991.

[SmithNut]

Originally Posted by socal s&w

I can only vouch that mine with the PCC serial number is in fact a dash 3, yes. As stated, according to Horton, there were 400 in that particular run in 1991.

Ditto, mine is a -3

Regards

[Kernel Crittenden]

Originally Posted by SmithNut

...There was another version called the Hunter.... they were essentially the same gun but came Magna ported.... I do not know the prefix for that gun, nor the product code.

The HUNTERS had a PCMxxxx prefix and a product code of 170021. LH has said 200 were made.

[Jamesatrange]

A pic as it's now mine. The pictures upload right side up and then when I post they flip upside down.

[Jamesatrange]

The other side. This has AAC prefix for serial# and 686 no dash.

[SmithNut]

There was a company that used to run commemorative/embellished guns and had ads running in the gun magazines and NRA publications. As I recall, they did do some PC guns, they used to advertise guns that were embellished and had some interesting prices, only $394 for 100 easy payments..... or something like that.
I wonder if that gun, with the embellishments, was one of those guns...??

Interesting gun, it's obviously early with the square butt and finger groove stocks, etc., and the embellishments lead me to believe it was one of those commemorative guns (I don't remember seeing the Competitor being one, but do remember the F-Comp as one), that would possibly explain the serial number sequence not being the Lew Horton run.

FWIW

[SmithNut]

Originally Posted by SmithNut

There was a company that used to run commemorative/embellished guns and had ads running in the gun magazines and NRA publications. As I recall, they did do some PC guns, they used to advertise guns that were embellished and had some interesting prices, only $394 for 100 easy payments..... or something like that.
I wonder if that gun, with the embellishments, was one of those guns...??

Interesting gun, it's obviously early with the square butt and finger groove stocks, etc., and the embellishments lead me to believe it was one of those commemorative guns (I don't remember seeing the Competitor being one, but do remember the F-Comp as one), that would possibly explain the serial number sequence not being the Lew Horton run.

FWIW

Wasn't that company the American Liberty Foundation, or something along those lines...???

[Jamesatrange]

If the owner were alive when this was sold to the dealer he'd probably conclude our story. He passed and his wife sold the collection. I really should get some letters for some of the guns I wonder about. I like knowing and not guessing. Being that I live close to the mothership I've seen some guns that have been customized because the talent is local and someone has a friend at Smith or they worked there themselves. I may call and see if they shed any light, if not then letter maybe.

[g-dad]

Jamesatrange, lets try these pic.

[jstanfield103]

What a Beauty, Congratulations !

[Jamesatrange]

Any other information anyone can offer?

[jjbrewst1]

I'm baffled at the 686 No Dash aspect. I don't think the performance center was around before 1991. Which would put the dash number to around 686-3

But yours has the PC logo. That's where I'm stumped.

Did you call S&W with serial number? Or Earl at Lew Horton.

I just can't imagine a 686 No Dash PC. It just doesn't make sense to me. Still worth what you paid easily. But still need some answers

[Kernel Crittenden]

Originally Posted by Jamesatrange

This has AAC prefix for serial# and 686 no dash.

Take the grips off and double check the s/n on the bottom of the grip frame. It is very curious that this gun appears to have a no-dash s/n. But every thing else about makes it look a -3 170015 from the factory. It even has the "raised" style of thumbpiece that the PC used for just a brief period in the early to mid '90's.

[jjbrewst1]

Patiently waiting.

[socal s&w]

Yeah, you know come to think of it my dash 3 has no serial number on the inside crane, the barrel shroud takes up all of the space there. It's digitally imprinted on the inside of the top strap in larger letters, NOT stamped at all.

[socal s&w]

Okay, ya made me go out to the safe and crack Gerty (that's her name) out....

From the factory sticker on the side of the blue plastic box:
Model: 686
Caliber: 357
Barrel: 6
Finish: S
Stock: TS
Features: Special
Serial No: PCCXXXX
Product Code: 104233
Special Order: 3491

Not sure why the Product Code doesn't match up with SmithNut....

"As for the Competitor, as a very early PC offering it still had the square butt gripframe, with the heavy slab barrel. It was delivered in a blue plastic box with hinged box. Product code was 170015."

but that's what I got. The full code just below the barcode reads;
PCCXXXX1042333491 (Serial, prod code and spec ord numbers all strung together.)

And the serial number is imprinted parallel with the barrel on the inside of the top strap, right side in dot matrix style print. Much larger font than the stamp would provide.

No, I did not take off the stocks as I have skateboard tape on the back strap and didn't want to disturb it or make it over.

[SmithNut]

Originally Posted by socal s&w

Okay, ya made me go out to the safe and crack Gerty (that's her name) out....

From the factory sticker on the side of the blue plastic box:
Model: 686
Caliber: 357
Barrel: 6
Finish: S
Stock: TS
Features: Special
Serial No: PCCXXXX
Product Code: 104233
Special Order: 3491

Not sure why the Product Code doesn't match up with SmithNut....

"As for the Competitor, as a very early PC offering it still had the square butt gripframe, with the heavy slab barrel. It was delivered in a blue plastic box with hinged box. Product code was 170015."

but that's what I got. The full code just below the barcode reads;
PCCXXXX1042333491 (Serial, prod code and spec ord numbers all strung together.)

Early PC guns sometimes show up with two different product codes, I ran into this on another gun recently when having Earl research for a letter. Early on some of the guns were assigned standard production SKU's (in this case 104233) and then retro'd to the "right" sequence (in this case 170015) which is more consistent with what we know of the PC gun SKU's (most are 170xxx).

Mine has the original box and shows the 170015 SKU/Product code, but it's probably much later than your gun, mine is at the beginning of the second half of the production run (literally.... PCC0301), so maybe they figured out the product codes by then.

[jjbrewst1]

Originally Posted by Kernel Crittenden

There is a gun, identical to the 170015 but for some reason it has product code 104233. A pc which was used on other M686 variations. There was a special called the "With The Wolfhounds" model, for some reason, with that same 104233 pc. Released by Lew Horton, IINM. I think there were others in that series.

You have one of those 104233 COMPETITORS. Interesting. A rare subset, of a rare subset.

It's possible it was one of the first 170015's made. Before they had assigned a unique product code. So, they just used 104233, to put something on the box. I don't think S&W always builds guns in perfect numerical sequence. So a PCC0200 might be built before a PCC0001. Maybe, weeks or months before.

Someone HAS to explain the no dash frame and PC LOGO. the performance center was not in existence or even close when the No Dash were in production.

To me that is the "Elephant In The Room"

[Kernel Crittenden]

There is a gun, identical to the 170015 but for some reason it has product code 104233. A pc which was used on other M686 variations. There was a special called the "With The Wolfhounds" model, for some reason, with that same 104233 pc. Released by Ellett Brothers Dist, IINM. I think there were others in that series.

You have one of those 104233 COMPETITORS. Interesting. A rare subset, of a rare subset.

It's possible it was one of the first 170015's made. Before they had assigned a unique product code. So, they just used 104233, to put something on the box. I don't think S&W always builds guns in perfect numerical sequence. So a PCC0200 might be built before a PCC0001. Maybe, weeks or months before.

[Kernel Crittenden]

Originally Posted by jjbrewst1

Someone HAS to explain the no dash frame ...

socal s&w gun is marked as a -3. It does have the strange "recycled" product code, though. Luckily, along the way, the box was kept, or we'd never know that.

[jjbrewst1]

Originally Posted by Kernel Crittenden

socal s&w gun is marked as a -3. It does have the strange "recycled" product code, though. Luckily, along the way, the box was kept, or we'd never know that.

Jamesatrange's gun is a No Dash. That's where I'm confused Kernel.

Any thoughts?

[Kernel Crittenden]

Originally Posted by jjbrewst1

Any thoughts?

Since it's just a gun he saw, and not in his possession, my guess is James is mistaken about the dash number, the s/n, or both.

That's why I'd like him to double check the grip frame (or the frame window) for the serial number. (Glance at the yoke cut out while you're at it, to double check the dash number).

Otherwise, it's one of those strange S&W mysteries. We've all seen mismarked and unmarked guns.

[Jamesatrange]

I bought the gun Kernerl. It is serial AAC79XX. It is a no dash and the bottom of the grip frame also has the AAC79XX. I took a picture of the model and serial number but am trying to edit out the last two digits of the serial# in case my pic ever gets hijacked by some computer sleeve but I am iPad stupid I guess. It didn't come with a factory box though so that was no additional help.

[jjbrewst1]

Originally Posted by Jamesatrange

I bought the gun Kernerl. It is serial AAC79XX. It is a no dash and the bottom of the grip frame also has the AAC79XX. I took a picture of the model and serial number but am trying to edit out the last two digits of the serial# in case my pic ever gets hijacked by some computer sleeve but I am iPad stupid I guess. It didn't come with a factory box though so that was no additional help.

I highly doubt you have to worry about serial numbers. This forum is filled with them. And so is gunbroker.

[Jamesatrange]

Here is a pic. I downloaded an edit app. Phew.

[Jamesatrange]

Another with PC emblem and serial. You're probably right about serial fear Jim B. I'm newer to this and wasn't sure.

[jjbrewst1]

PC LOGO just doesn't make sense. But it's there and looks legit

[Jamesatrange]

I'll dig into it and report back, may be a bit but I want to know as well.

[Kernel Crittenden]

No doubt, then. It's even got the "M" stamp. Gotta be a real no dash. The AAC s/n prefix was nothing special, BTW. It wasn't a "set aside" s/n prefix. I've seen other guns with it, and they were nothing remarkable. Those guns all had ship dates from 1983.

My guess is the Performance Center had this old M686 frame sitting abound, maybe being used as a "mule" for some other old project, they stripped it down and used it to build a 170015. The PC didn't even exist in 1983.

It can't be a homemade "parts gun" because it's got the PC logo. It's a head scratcher. One of those rare post 1980's guns that I'd actually get lettered. Wonder if it has the old style yoke retention system, like you'd find on a no dash.

[Jamesatrange]

Kernel what is the old style yoke retention system? So I can look?

[SmithNut]

It also has the M stamping, which should have been long gone before the -3 engineering change, IIRC.
Soooo, is it a rebarrel-ed and PC stamped/modified gun, or ......??
Weird....



Jamesatrange,

Did you call the factory and ask about the gun? I'm curious to see what they'd say, if anything about that particular gun. If they would just give you a Product Code/SKU that was assigned to that s/n, we'd have an avenue to look for (in case it's neither of the one's already discussed here).

Regardless of how this turns out, I'm hoping it's as fantastic a shooter as mine has been. Congrats on your purchase.

[b_san]

I agree give the S&W customer service number a call and talk to one of the helpful people there. They should be able to let you know what the serial number originally shipped as. You might even get lucky and get transferred to the S&W historian('s voicemail)...