My S&W model 65-5 ( Added some info and pics in thread 21)

[scout II]

I am trying to figure out when this gun was made and need a little help. It is a model 65-5 with serial number BSH84xx. It came with Uncle Mikes rubber grips that should be original to the gun but I installed the magna grips as I like the looks better. It has the serrated backstrap and forestrap that the book says came out in 1995-1996. It also came to me in a plastic S&W case that the book says came out in 1995-1996, and I wonder if that is correct for this gun, or should it have come in a cardboard box? Unfortunately the end label has been removed at some point so no help there. Here are a few pictures.

[Sailfish 40]

Sweet gun. Looks like late 1994.

[Kernel Crittenden]

Originally Posted by scout II

.....a model 65-5 with serial number BSH84xx........

I've seen a number of BSH guns and they all had ship dates in the......

November of 1994 to January of 1995 range.

They all happens to be in the one-piece cardboard box, too. I suspect your case is not original, but can't say 100%. S&W was using that blue plastic box on standard production guns at least as early as 1993, but the full transition took several years. And they had another style of blue plastic case, that looked very similar, that they used on occasion, even earlier.

[BC38]

FWIW, looks to me like the foam in that case is cut for accepting two magazines, so maybe it came with a semi-auto?

[rbmorse]

The slots are for the paperwork.

[Mehutch]

Got my 65-1 in 1977... in a old style box type

[326MOD10]

I would have to agree with BC38 about the slots in the foam.

I have the case that came with my 5903TSW and that is where the magazines fit in at.

May have been a fluke and I am not an expert but I do recall the magazines being in those slots when it was new in the box with 3 magazines.

GREAT LOOKING 65 THOUGH!!!!

I like the look of the original grips. Now you need a Tyler T-grip to go with her.

[scout II]

My confusion comes from the fact that it looks like the gun was made in 1994 going by the serial number. The S&W book says it came with Uncle Mike's rubber grips in 1994, so that is good. But my gun has a serrated backstrap and forestrap that the S&W books says came out in 1995-96. I also have the plastic case for it that the S&W book says came out in 1995-96. Is it just one of those strange S&W things that the older gun came with the newer upgrades?

[bananaman]

Nice gun! The 3" K frames are pretty darn popular. I had a 65-3 that I traded off for a 4" 586 no dash. We were both happy! I recently replaced it with a 4" 13-2, my only K frame magnum. Bob

[Kernel Crittenden]

Originally Posted by scout II

The S&W book says ......

Don't put so much faith in a book. The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson is full of good information but it is not infallible. It contains a lot of minor inaccuracies, especially in the area of specific dates, where it is often off by a year or two in either direction. Re read my post above. I gave you the ship date narrowed down to a 3 month window, and the type of box it would of shipped in. This is not based on a book but what I have seen in the real world on numerous guns with serial numbers nearly identical to yours.

[scout II]

Thanks Kernel Crittenden, that makes more sense to me now. I guess I didn't realize the great S&W book is not 100% correct.
I too love the 3" K frame guns.

[linde]

Originally Posted by Kernel Crittenden

Don't put so much faith in a book. The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson is full of good information but it is not infallible . . .

Indeed . . . the authors will be among the first to admit the book is a perpetual work-in-progress as we all learn more from actual experience.

For example, the serrated back and fore strap on the round butt 65 frames was reported as existing for a short 18 month window in '95-'96 . . . however it is present on serial number CCL6544 (no box) which likely shipping in early 1998. Perhaps this was simply a leftover frame forging . . . or perhaps the feature lasted longer than previously known.

My kudos to the Kernel and others who keep track of what we learn so we all can benefit.

Russ

[OldLawman]

I recently picked up a nice 65-5, (almost unfired) ser. number CAPXXX. Serrated front and back straps, old-style frame and thumb latch, case hardened forged hammer and trigger, firing pin on hammer. Internally, the only MIM parts are the bolt and cylinder stop, which I am sure are original. I suspect S&W just kept building guns with the parts that were in the system until they ran out and switched to MIM parts.
My box is the hinged blue plastic, numbered to the gun.

[linde]

Originally Posted by OldLawman

I recently picked up a nice 65-5, (almost unfired) ser. number CAPXXX. Serrated front and back straps, old-style frame and thumb latch, case hardened forged hammer and trigger, firing pin on hammer. Internally, the only MIM parts are the bolt and cylinder stop, which I am sure are original. I suspect S&W just kept building guns with the parts that were in the system until they ran out and switched to MIM parts.

By the time they got to CCL6544 they were stilll using the old-style frame and firing pin on hammer but were using the new style cylinder release and MIM hammer & trigger.

Russ

[Kernel Crittenden]

Originally Posted by OldLawman

.....I suspect S&W just kept building guns with the parts that were in the system until they ran out.....

Exactly. It is this practice, which S&W uses all the time, that cause the appearance of inaccuracies. A date that might seem curious in the SCoSW appear so only because very few changes occur on a "hard" date. Most every change is a TRANSITION over a period of months or even years.

In my own mind, if I think something happened in a certain month base on a preponderance of evidence, I know it's probably plus or minus a month. And when I see something that happened in a certain year, I am not surprised to see examples later from the year before or the year after.

It's just the nature of all things S&W.

[Kernel Crittenden]

Originally Posted by linde

..... MIM hammer & trigger.

I had wondered if S&W ever made a MIM hammer in the "old style" with the firing pin on the hammer. Thanks for confirming that. I don't think that practice lasted for long, but a some point S&W must of realized they had more old style frames in the pipe-line and not enough forged triggers to build them all. Hence, the need for a MIM old style hammer.

[linde]

Originally Posted by Kernel Crittenden

I had wondered if S&W ever made a MIM hammer in the "old style" with the firing pin on the hammer. Thanks for confirming that. I don't think that practice lasted for long, but a some point S&W must of realized they had more old style frames in the pipe-line and not enough forged triggers to build them all. Hence, the need for a MIM old style hammer.

Help confirm what I said is true . . . am virtually certain of the MIM trigger and fairly sure of the MIM (old-style) hammer












Russ

[Kernel Crittenden]

The trigger looks MIM, because it has a hollow back. For the hammer, if MIM, look for a faint line down the back. I suppose it's the parting line for the mold. If S&W carried to, it could be made to go away pretty easily. (But that would be a cost that adds no utility). Otherwise, you'll need to take the sideplate off. The MIM and forged hammers look very different in full profile. I'm inclined to say yours looks forged.

[linde]

Originally Posted by Kernel Crittenden

The trigger looks MIM, because it has a hollow back. For the hammer, if MIM, look for a faint line down the back. I suppose it's the parting line for the mold. If S&W carried to, it could be made to go away pretty easily. (But that would be a cost that adds no utility). Otherwise, you'll need to take the sideplate off. The MIM and forged hammers look very different in full profile. I'm inclined to say yours looks forged.

It was the absence of a distinctive flash chrome or color case hardening surface that led me to think it was MIM. However, I see no evidence of the injection mold seam or flashing that you describe so I accept your premise that it is forged.






Russ

[Model39]

[scout II]

Funny how things work sometimes. I just happened to pick up another S&W model 65-5 with 3" barrel today. This has the original one piece cardboard box, wood magna grips, no serrated backstrap and forestrap and a serial number of BKV07xx. Kind of cool to compare the two model 65-5 guns. One question on this is what does the Spec. Ord. 2022 mean on the box? Here are a few pictures for fun.

[linde]

Originally Posted by scout II

S&W model 65-5 with 3" barrel . . . no serrated backstrap and forestrap and a serial number of BKV07xx . . . One question on this is what does the Spec. Ord. 2022 mean on the box?

It means January 22, 1992 . . . the Julian date

Very nice addition,

Russ

[The Norseman]

Since the Spec. Ord. (the Julian date) was brought up again,
out of curiosity how do you know it doesn't mean 2002?

The only reason I ask is I got a S&W Model 625 45 Colt
Mountain Gun, Stainless Steel, 6 shot Hand Ejector, no lock
4"Bbl with worthless for shooting wood grips, for Christmas.

The Blue cardboard box label is torn up to the Spec Ord which is 2341.
Serial number starts as CAYXXXX.
A little research says 2002 but how do I know its
not 1992?

In the Army we would have put 82, 92, 02, 12 in front of
the day of the year.

[linde]

Originally Posted by The Norseman

Since the Spec. Ord. (the Julian date) was brought up again . . . out of curiosity how do you know it doesn't mean 2002?

I choose the correct decade by the serial number . . . although that doesn't always work. For example, the first-year Centennials used CEN for the 3-alpha s/n prefix out of alphabetic order.

If the s/n doesn't compute, the features may provide a clue.

Russ

[linde]

Originally Posted by The Norseman

. . . I got a S&W Model 625 45 Colt Mountain Gun . . . The Blue cardboard box label is torn up to the Spec Ord which is 2341 . . . Serial number starts as CAYXXXX . . . A little research says 2002 but how do I know its
not 1992? . . .

Perhaps in this example the Spec Ord code is a feature code for the Mountain Gun's tapered barrel. CAY . . . unless it was used out of sequence . . . would date to 1st half of 1996 which is when Product Code 130045 (4" .45 Colt Mountain Gun) was produced.

Is the box original to the gun and is the Product Code visible?

Russ

[kaaskop49]

Originally Posted by OldLawman

I recently picked up a nice 65-5, (almost unfired) ser. number CAPXXX. Serrated front and back straps, old-style frame and thumb latch, case hardened forged hammer and trigger, firing pin on hammer. Internally, the only MIM parts are the bolt and cylinder stop, which I am sure are original. I suspect S&W just kept building guns with the parts that were in the system until they ran out and switched to MIM parts.
My box is the hinged blue plastic, numbered to the gun.

I absolutely love this explanation! Originally, I was worried that the apparent discrepancies might prevent the OP from enjoying his wonderful gun. Then I saw that he has a "family" of 3-inchers to keep his new 65 company. And he has purchased ANOTHER 3" 65 since. I have never even seen a 3" 65, let alone bought one. Not a grail gun, but in such condition as the OP's 2, hard to pass up.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

P.S. OP: I envy you your 3" collection!

[scout II]

Originally Posted by kaaskop49

I absolutely love this explanation! Originally, I was worried that the apparent discrepancies might prevent the OP from enjoying his wonderful gun. Then I saw that he has a "family" of 3-inchers to keep his new 65 company. And he has purchased ANOTHER 3" 65 since. I have never even seen a 3" 65, let alone bought one. Not a grail gun, but in such condition as the OP's 2, hard to pass up.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

P.S. OP: I envy you your 3" collection!

Thanks kaaskop49. It has taken me a very long time to collect these 3" guns. I really can't believe my luck with this last model 65. I had no idea it was a 65-5 until it was in my hand and I opened the cylinder and looked. Right then I got the biggest grin on my face and thought I should buy a lotto ticket.

[OldLawman]

3" guns can grow on you. I carried a 3" 65 as a detective in the mid-1980s; then owned a couple in the last 10 years. Missed it, so I acquired the one I talked about earlier in this thread. Also picked up two 3" M66s in the last month.

[Blackbarry]

Originally Posted by OldLawman

I recently picked up a nice 65-5, (almost unfired) ser. number CAPXXX. Serrated front and back straps, old-style frame and thumb latch, case hardened forged hammer and trigger, firing pin on hammer. Internally, the only MIM parts are the bolt and cylinder stop, which I am sure are original. I suspect S&W just kept building guns with the parts that were in the system until they ran out and switched to MIM parts.
My box is the hinged blue plastic, numbered to the gun.

Think about it...... The SN is for the frame only. This applies to wheel guns and semi-autos. Everything else is "parts". The frames of both types of guns are what counts in the 1968 Gun Control Act. With semi-autos, every part can be obtained after-market from slides to barrels to firing pins and springs. With wheel guns all parts can be changed but just not as easily. So the SN is an approximation of birthdate with cobbled together leftover parts from the bin. The only "pure" lines might be the limited production runs of certain models.

[The Norseman]

I hope I'm not offending you Scott II by asking questions.
That's why I like this place, it's great for learning S&W.

Here is the Box for said Mountain Gun above.
Spec Ord 1992 or 2002?



S&W Model 625 45 Colt Mountain Gun, Stainless Steel, 6 shot
Hand Ejector, no lock 4"Bbl with out the
worthless for shooting wood grips


Thank you in advance.

[GeoJelly]

Great thread - and great pictures! Norseman - you probably already know this and it may not matter to you - but the labels on the LSI boxes are fairly easy to replicate in PowerPoint. Font and font size can be matched, and an online barcode generator for the codes. Exact match except for the fact that that the dot-matrix style isn't available in Word or PP. I am retired and have time to sit around and do this - and to satisfy my own anality. I have not done it buy and flip - all of my few K-frames will stay mine until they pull the cord on me at the hospital ...

[scout II]

Originally Posted by The Norseman

I hope I'm not offending you Scott II by asking questions.
That's why I like this place, it's great for learning S&W.

Here is the Box for said Mountain Gun above.
Spec Ord 1992 or 2002?



S&W Model 625 45 Colt Mountain Gun, Stainless Steel, 6 shot
Hand Ejector, no lock 4"Bbl with out the
worthless for shooting wood grips


Thank you in advance.

I am still learning here everyday also. The way I see it looking through the S&W book, it says the internal lock came out on the model 625-9 in 45 Colt in 2001. That being said, yours could not have been made in 2002 because you have no internal lock. Yours was shipped according to the Spec Ord 2341 to be Dec 7 1992.

[Kernel Crittenden]

Originally Posted by GeoJelly

.....the labels....are fairly easy to replicate.....

Do you have a method of removing the existing label without damaging the box, or would you look for original boxes on eBay with no label. Those are fairly common.

BTW, boxes marked with the LSI logo were only used for a brief period of time, during a certain era. Even a perfect fake can be easily detected if other details are wrong. During it's approx. 10 years of use, there are dozens of little "tells" on the S&W one-piece box, different in each era, if you know what to look for.

Originally Posted by scout II

T... It has taken me a very long time to collect these 3" guns. ....

It's a great collection of guns, and maybe it was unintentional, but it's also a great collection of factory STOCKS! You've got Combats, Magnas, Round Butt Checkered Targets, and the allusive, rarely seen, Round Butt Smooth Targets.

Do you have a favorite?

Originally Posted by The Norseman

....Here is the Box for said Mountain Gun above.....

IMO that's not the original box. 99.9% certainty. Here's why....

1.) In 1996, when your gun was made, it would of shipped in a 1st gen blue plastic box. I've seen many 130045 like yours. Some with CAY s/n's. They all shipped in 1996 and they were all in a blue plastic box. There was also a very similar -6 100932 made in 1997, seen with CCF s/n's.

2.) The Spec. Ord. number isn't right for your gun. Neither 1992 or 2002 work. I don't think the 130045 was made in 1992, and a 2002 gun would have the lock and be a -9. Your gun is a -6, isn't it?

3.) Someone has partially ripped the label off in order to obscure the s/n and product code. That didn't happen by accident. Those labels are affixed with the "mother of all glue". They don't just fall off, and are impossible to remove without irrevocably damaging the box. (Your box is submitted as evidence to that).

[twodog max]

I am learning all sorts of things S&W in this thread. Some I already knew like how I have always liked the 3 inch barrels. I had three model 36 three inchers and all have gotten away. I wish I had them all back.

[Harkrader]

DANG, mehutch! That beauty makes mine look like bricks. Still like them a LOT, though!

[GeoJelly]

Regarding the box labels - and I apologize that this is kinda off-topic - I just print them onto 5x7 sticky labels, cut them to size, then just glue them over the existing label. It doesn't matter to me that close examination would reveal two labels. In fact on the most recent label, for the 3-in M64, I put the serial number on twice just because it looked good. It does give me a warm fuzzy to look at the small stack of boxes and see labels on all of them.

Just about to pick up a humpback/lock M64 here - it's a four inch with round butt and pretty high mileage - but not a police trade-in. Plan to call S&W tomorrow to see (which I doubt) if they'll sell and fit a three-incher onto it. I found a beautiful 3-inch on the Google but it's $185. I paid $95 for my first S&W (6-inch Highway Patrolman) in 1970 - and now just a barrel is almost $200!!

[The Norseman]

Thank you Scout II and Kernel Crittenden.

Yes my S&W Model 625 45 Colt Mountain Gun, Stainless Steel,
6 shot Hand Ejector, no lock 4"Bbl, is a 625-6.
I knew that dash number is important when talking S&W just
forgot when typing.

Wow, that Revolver is 20 years old, neat.

I wondered about that box not being original to this Revolver,
damn.

Thank you.