I went to the range this morning trying to get an idea of the groups my 642 38-special is shooting while removing myself as much as possible.
The results are in the attached photo.
Fired from a rest (see photo) at a target 10 yards away. Sights were even and centered holding at 6 o'clock on bullseye.
Fired 5 each of the following ammo;
Blazer 158GR. LRN
Winchester 130GR. FMJ
Remington 13GR. FMJ
Hornady Critical Defense +P 110GR.
Buffalo Bore 20c/20 158GR soft cast hollow point.
The hits I got from the rest are about what I shoot offhand.

I guess my biggest question is this what I should expect or is something off?
Should I quit trying to aim for bullseye and work on aim to point of impact?

Side notes;
At around 5 yard I feel that I do better looking over the sights than aiming with the sights.
Fired some offhand with a buddy recording on his cell phone. Did one string with a snap cap hidden in with the 4 live rounds. I could not see any movement at all when got to the cap.
Fired my buddies little Glock at 15 feet and was putting 3 to 4 in the bullseye with the rest close by.
Thanks for any thoughts or ideas.

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Hi. I really can't comment on what you've showed in your post. I DO think you're worrying yourself to death in trying to establish a pattern based on 5 rounds each of 4-5 different ammunitions.

May I suggest: Set yourself up with a certified instructor. I was a competent revolver shooter when I first met my (retired) FBI pistol instructor. He told me to shoot at a silo about 20' away, any way I chose. With my Model 60, DA, I fired my usual fist-size groups. Only then did he know what I was capable of and how he could best help me. Now I am a very competent revolver shooter.

As my guy did, an instructor will be able to study your technique and make relevant suggestions. Hope I've helped.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

P.S. BTW, your 642 is one of the best revolvers made for close-in, reactive self defense... I would hang onto it.

For minute-of-miscreant range that should suffice nicely, but I certainly wouldn't discourage some training. If I could afford it I'd try it.

I can't shoot the Airweights anymore for physical reasons, but the 642 and 442 are splendid defensive guns. The sales figures sure seem to bear that out.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Air weight snubbies are about the hardest guns to shoot well. They have at minimum snappy recoil and borders on painful with loads like the Buffalo Bore or Underwood stuff.
All indications are using a rest won't take you out of the equation, especially if recoil has you flinching. For a right handed shooter, that means shots going low and left.
At 10yrds with a 6 O clock hold, your shots will probably be lowish with some of that ammo as lighter weights will go low for your gun, which is typically sighted for 158gr ammo....but some of that looks a lot like flinch too.
Since it look similar to what you get unrested or offhand, you may need to isolate whether you're flinching or pushing the gun while breaking the long DAO trigger, probably work that out through a bit of dry fire practice before loading up at the range.

Please allow me to add my two cents worth, which at current inflation rates may be nearly worthless . . .



It looks like you are doing quite well. For a short barreled defensive revolver, your results at 10 yards are certainly accurate enough to be effective. The vertical spread due to bullet weights looks like what you should expect.

If you want to reduce the size of your groups, it will probably be necessary to settle on one bullet weight and practice until you get the results you are hoping for, possibly adjusting your vertical aiming point as you suggested.



This is my favorite practice round. It was available chaeply when I first found it. So I purchased several cases. It shoots to the same point of aim as my usual carry ammo.

It took several hundred rounds of practice to reach the point where I can expect my targets (at only 7 yards) to look like this easily and consistently.

A lot of people would be very happy to achieve the results you have shared. Well done, sir.

With J frames, the front sight is higher than the rear groove so if you take a traditional sight picture, you will end up aiming low. The further the target, the lower you will hit.

I have to disagree with andyo5. Manufacturers sight their fixed-sight handguns in at 50 feet or 25 yards (75 ft) depending on the manufacturer and the gun. This is standard practice. When you shoot at shorter ranges than what the handgun is sighted in for the bullet has not risen to the factory sighted in point of impact. If you were to move your target out from the 10 yds you are currently shooting at your accuracy may suffer but you'll see the point of impact rise with all of your bullet weights. The POI of heavier bullets will rise the most and the lighter slugs will rise less. Keep practicing. Snubbie proficiency does not occur overnight.

Best Regards,
ADP3

Thanks for the replies and kind words!
Called S&W, they said the sights for a 642 are set at 10 yards using 158 gr ammo.
Don't think I'm flinching, didn't see it at all with the hidden snap cap.
I've been on the paper since day one, a sheet of copy paper LOL, Thats about the size of a Target when things go to ****.
Call me a dreamer if you want, but I want targets like TucsonMTB put up.
I like the Buffalo Bore 20c/20 standard pressure 158gr hollowpoint for carry ammo, might try the +P 158.
I decided today to only practice with 158gr ammo, the Blazer 158gr LRN.
I'm not worried to death about it but kaaskop49 is correct about a certified instructor. There is a local defense school run by one of Bill Rogers instructors. If I don't see some improvement soon..... ( He'll just tell me to go buy a Glock and stop worrying about it hahaha)
I there a good forum friendly file hosting site, I could put up the snap cap video, Me in all my tactical glory!

Who wants to shoot an Airweight J frame beyond 21 feet anyway? Maybe it's just me but when I shoot my 642, I shoot the drills that'll save my life. Afterall, the J frame is specifically a defensive gun...and a superior one at that. I've been carrying mine for years. Sure, it can be fun to shoot the little one at 10 yards or greater but, IMO, don't focus too much on that unless you have money to burn on ammo and many years to live out until you can be 100% sure that you can be competent on the 642 as a carry gun.

+1 on: As expected - your 158gr ammo is spot on.

The lighter bullets will always shoot lower using the same sight alignment.

The horizontal - left tendency - that you're seeing is normally due to right handed shooters using too much trigger finger; jerking or 'slapping' the trigger. Try a slower, 'lighter' trigger pull and adjust your aim for the lighter bullets.

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But then, what do I know?

IMO , J frames are quite accurate. But, it does take practice. I saved this target from a CCW fun league I shot in 2008. 2 1/8" model 60, two hand hold, double action, 10 yds. I was using .38spl +P ammo,, not .357 mag.
Accuracy at 20 or 25 yds. is and can be quite good.
Of course some folks can take it to extremes...

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Joker, I would bet that you are leaving your fingertips dangling around the grip. When you squeeze the trigger you reflexively tighten those fingertips and that pulls the group low and left, just where you are grouping. Try a slightly larger grip (such as Hogue or Pachmayer Decelerator) and make sure your tips are touching the grip.

When I was instructing I would have at least one student every month swear up and down that the sights were off. No, it couldn't be my shooting they would all say. Until I demonstrated that the sights were perfectly aligned. Then the learning started.

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"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin

While I do mix it up some between different kinds of targets, right now I'm trying to walk before I run. Also there is the challenge of making one ragged hole in a target.
I have Hogue monogrip stocks/grips on it now,will check the fingertips though, also thought about trying the original stocks again.
When shooting, my finger is up to, but not on or beyond the first joint. Watched the snapcap video last night. I saw the cylinder was revolving in a jerking sort of way as I tried to "stage" it for the single action sear. ( hope I said that correctly). Maybe I should go for a long smooth pull. Been working on pulling the trigger straight back instead of curling it back.
Received a S&W screwdriver set yesterday, going to tap the side plate off this weekend and take a look inside, maybe place a drop or two of oil to help me out with the trigger. Not going to do any kind of trigger job or different springs. I was a Gunner's Mate in the Navy, so I know enough to be dangerous!
Thanks for the replies, I think they are helping.

The group you are getting off a rest at 30ft is not the gun, it's your shooting. I don't mean disrespect when I say that, it's just the truth.
I shoot snubby revolvers more than any other gun. It's difficult getting good groups until you can isolate your trigger from your grip, among a number of other things.
But it's doable if you work at it, and it will benefit any type of handgun you shoot once you can shoot DA revolvers well.

"But it's doable if you work at it, and it will benefit any type of handgun you shoot once you can shoot DA revolvers well."
Exactly!!!!!
I can do a little better with an automatic but if I can get this 642 down....
The day I was using the rest my buddy handed me his 10 shot Glock. I put 3 in the bulls eye with the rest close by. The look on his face was priceless. (better than him) He just handed me another magazine, I put 4 in the bulls eye, with the rest close by. Again the look. He told me today what he was thinking and no I will not kiss that.

Do you have medium frame double action revolver available for practice? It is always easier to transition to a small frame revolver with double action skills established on a larger, easier to master medium frame revolver. I used to start all of my students out on S&W M64s (shooting double action only) before transitioning them to other weapons platforms .

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"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin

Looks a lot like one of my targets. When the trigger breaks, the momentary release of "tension" causes my shots to go low and left. I'd need to practice 20X more than I do to fix it. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

*showing my ignorance*

Wow, I've never heard that phrase before. Will you please explain "... isolate your trigger from your grip...."

Thanks,

Bob

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

I was thinking today maybe I need to get a DA .22 revolver to practice with at less ammo cost.
Would it be better to get a full size .38 or full size .22?

Spend the money on reloading equipment instead of a .22 revolver. My opinion.

For a defensive revolver the ideal is for the gun to shoot to point-of-aim, not some theoretical point corresponding to the center of a bullseye. Your gun is not shooting low, it is right about where it should be!

If you want to shoot a lot then take up reloading! With Lee equipment such as their hand press you can get into reloading relatively inexpensively. There are two items that you would be better served by other manufacturers though, these would be a powder scale and powder measure. These two items of Lee's are, to be blunt, junk! Some will disagree, they are entitled to, but RCBS, Redding and Hornady make far better products. There is no problem with Lee's dies, presses, case trimmers and bullet casting equipment though.

Even if you don't want to handload you should still settle on one type of ammunition for practice. It makes little difference what you select as it and the gun will be capable of shooting far better that you for quite awhile. Choose a standard-for-caliber bullet weight, 158 grains for .38 Spl, preferably lead bullet. For a carry load the classic 158 gr LSWSHP "FBI Load", if you can find it, is as good as there is for a 2" snubby. Don't be taken in by hi-tech expanding jacketed bullets, there is little chance they will expand from a 2" barrel anyway. The LSWCHP has a far better chance of expansion and placement is more important anyway!

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Gunsmithing since 1961

I found a bent/deformed sear spring in my revolver. It still shoots and functions fine. I'm going to get 2 or 3 from S&W or Bushnell's then take a crack at putting it in myself, if that doesn't work I'll take it to a gunsmith to be done and while there get the trigger and parts stoned. Not going to change springs.

I'm going to try something I read somewhere, wish I had copied the authors name to give credit, but I didn't.
What he advised was a lot of dry firing then using full size silhouette targets at the range with a sheet of copy paper on the chest area. Start off at 3 yards and move targets out as you get better. Then fold paper in half and start over again.

The sympathetic muscle response to pulling a trigger is the tightening of the other fingers which comprise your grip. This can cause the gun to shift slightly. Probably not super critical for fist sized groups at 7-10yrds, but shooting one handed bullseye at 25yrds and you'll have to work it out.

Good point! One of the most important facets of shooting. This, and my instructor's 'follow-through on the trigger.' This helped me beyond measure.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103