please help me understand what happened

[S&WNUT]

Can anyone help me understand what caused this. This is a 442
that has been shot about 6 hundred or so rounds. Will Smith&Wesson fix it?

[Arik]

What is that?

[deadin]

Looks like you've been blowing some primers.
(If not, I would keep that gun away from my others in case it's catching.)

[dusty3030]

Looks like around the firing pin? That is horrible! Has it been blowing / unseating primers? Has it been piercing primers?

[deadin]

Was that done by one or two shots or has it been growing over time?
I don't know if that that is fixable, but I'm sure S&W would like to take a look at it. (Including a handfull of your fired brass.)

[H Richard]

That's some pretty serious erosion. What ammo and/or what primers have you been using. If a hand-load, what is the load? That is definitely not normal.

[LVSteve]

Last time I saw something like that it involved corrosive surplus ammo in a Mosin.

Seriously, I agree with the other posters. There has been some serious blow-by around the primers or they've been flat out pierced.

Instant diagnosis would be either an overlength firing pin or badly seated primers or too hot a handload.

[S&WNUT]

Hand loads using 4.5 gr Unique and some Alcan primers leftover from years past.
They were shoot yesterday 35 rounds of the 150 or so fired is what I found.
Just went back through the brass and found blow by no piercing of primers found.
The 35 rounds is all it took to ruin this nice gun found when cleaning.

[S&WNUT]

pictures of brass and primers used

[deadin]

How old is that brass? Is it something you picked up at the range?
I think I would mike the primer pockets to see if they are oversized.

[S&WNUT]

This brass is not range pickup I have reloaded it a few times I am sure but never had this happen usually throw away when they split

[S&WNUT]

breach face of my wife's 442

[zonker5]

I doubt S&W is going to warranty that.

[venomballistics]

Lay your cards on the table man.
Powder, primer ... all of it.

if your consistency was any worse across those primers, I would accuse you of loading with measuring spoons and a food scale.

[S&WNUT]

loaded on my 650 I have been loading for 35 years never seen this befour

[Art Doc]

Reloaded ammo voids any warranty. You say the primers were leaking? Something wrong with cases or primer. I think you're going to eat this one.

[deadin]

4.5 gr. of Unique shouldn't do anything like that unless you were using a 200gr bullet. I might be tempted to check the charge my measure is throwing or make sure I didn't accidentally have some other powder in the hopper.

(This why I don't like progressive loaders....)

[S&WNUT]

158gr bullet and going back over my records I have shot a lot of these in my 686 and my 60 with no blowback or problems the 442 seem to be hitting deeper on the primer

[S&WIowegan]

What you're seeing is the result of blowback around the primer. Since you used mixed head stamp brass, it's difficult to blame the brass. The Alcan primers apparently don't fit the primer pocket tight enough.

I purchased a used Les Baer 45 ACP Premier II a few years ago on a well-known auction site. The slide and frame were hard-chromed which supposedly improves durability and ease of cleanup.

I apparently did not inspect the gun thoroughly when it arrived. When I started using it I noticed the primers on my handloads all had a donut-ring stamped on them after firing. The breech face of the gun was severely eroded around the firing pin hole. I called Baer and told them what I had and got an ear full of rant against Winchester white box ammo. Baer says they've been getting damaged pistols from people using WWB caused by gas leakage. The ammo I used was handloads with CCI primers.

I took the gun to Baer's factory and he looked it over. He had the firing pin hole drilled out to normal 45 diameter and replaced my FP with a new one. The breech face still shows a bit of erosion remaining but it's not worsening. Needless to say I don't buy WWB.

The 442 aluminum frame really doesn't handle blow back gas well at all. You could try contacting Alcan but they may not exist today.

[Lee in Quartzsite]

Looks to me like the primer pockets are over-sized or the primers undersized because all of the cases have a black ring between the case & primer. Being that the damage was caused by reloads the warranty is void. About all you can do i clean it up and use it as a paperweight

[deadin]

I still think there was something wrong with the loads. 4.5 gr Unique under a 158 gr cast bullet is about a mid-range load. If there's enough of it left, you might check the firing pin protrusion.

I surprised you didn't scorch your trigger finger. That had to be blowing hot gasses out the side of the cylinder breech gap.

[S&WNUT]

Originally Posted by deadin

I still think there was something wrong with the loads. 4.5 gr Unique under a 158 gr cast bullet is about a mid-range load. If there's enough of it left, you might check the firing pin protrusion.

I surprised you didn't scorch your trigger finger. That had to be blowing hot gasses out the side of the cylinder breech gap.

There were no indications all loads were very consistent and accurate my 110lb wife shot most of them as I was standing right there as I said shot a lot of them in a 686 and there are no sign of damage at all and never noticed cases be blackened by blowback

[H Richard]

Those Alcan primers haven't been made since the 50's to 60's at the latest. Would have to be 55 to 70 years old. I see blowback leak rings all around that brass. How old was the Unique they were loaded with and how was it stored? The components used should have been scrapped, and evidently the brass also.

[Edmo]

Just to confirm, did you experience the black rings around the primers on the same reloads fired in your 686?

Another question, has your damaged 442 had the firing pin replaced/upgraded? If so, was it a longer one?

Edmo

[Gulfecho]

-Scottie "If I give it anymore she'll blow captain".

[S&WNUT]

Originally Posted by H Richard

Those Alcan primers haven't been made since the 50's to 60's at the latest. Would have to be 55 to 70 years old. I see blowback leak rings all around that brass. How old was the Unique they were loaded with and how was it stored? The components used should have been scrapped, and evidently the brass also.

The powder is 2 years old the brass is good it was the primers that caused the problem but only in this gun. what about all the ammo from the wars people still shoot I would never use power that was very old or brass that was bad and if the primers work
the thought was it should be fine. I honestly think the primers were soft and the harder strike of the 442 caused the problem somehow because it damn near pierced them. As I said shot a lot in other guns with lighter springs no problem at all.

[poordevil]

Some of those primers look cratered to me. Maybe an indication of some of the loads being too hot?

[S&WNUT]

Originally Posted by Edmo

Just to confirm, did you experience the black rings around the primers on the same reloads fired in your 686?

Another question, has your damaged 442 had the firing pin replaced/upgraded? If so, was it a longer one?

Edmo

No black at all on the 686 or the 60 but they have lighter springs (still reliable) but the 442 as a carry gun for my wife
has stock factory springs. No it has original factory firing pin.

[murphydog]

I think there is nothing left to do except to call factory customer service and explain your situation to them. They may inspect it (and may even pay to have it returned to the factory) and then decide what to do, or as others noted above since it was not factory ammo that caused the problem they may not offer anything.

[robert1804]

Wow! That firing pin bushing is eroded away as well as the frame. I thought those bushings were steel. If I were looking for some antediluvian primers to use, I'd pass on Alcan.

[scooter123]

Looking at the packaging for those primers I see evidence of some moisture damage to the cardboard. This would lead me to suspect that the outside of some of the primer cups were corroded and that caused your leakage issue. I also hate to say it but I would be shocked if S&W offered any type of warranty compensation, this mistake was all on you.

[DR505]

Why do you have ancient primers laying about? I would pitch them and get rid of the ammo loaded with those primers...pull all the bullets and call it a day.

[pumpgun]

little JB weld and primer and call it a day

[rwsmith]

Originally Posted by S&WNUT

pictures of brass and primers used

I can't see well, but aren't some of those primers pierced? It doesn't surprise me that damage could happen, but how it happened so fast is crazy. I'm sure S&W can replace the bushing and the firing pin.

PS Was the 442 part of the recall that the 686 and a bunch of other models had concerning the bad bushing/firing pin. If it is, it should have been fixed by S&W and stamped with an 'M'. It was mostly 'L' frames so I doubt this, but it would explain how a recoil plate on a revolver could get so messed up with so few rounds.

PS: Sorry, you DID say none were pierced.

[rwsmith]

Originally Posted by scooter123

Looking at the packaging for those primers I see evidence of some moisture damage to the cardboard. This would lead me to suspect that the outside of some of the primer cups were corroded and that caused your leakage issue. I also hate to say it but I would be shocked if S&W offered any type of warranty compensation, this mistake was all on you.

Powder and primers can last indefinitely IF they are stored to keep them cool and dry.

[MajorD]

I frequently end up with old reloading components and have used powder or primers 50-60 years old with no ill effects that is some ugly erosion !

[BigBill]

A hot load would make the primer flush. A light load or not enough powder would suck the primer in? Think of it as a engine running lean. The primer leaked and torch cut the frame. Lean = heat?

[S&W1006]

I had the same thing happen with some 10mm loads. 7.2 grains of Unique and Winchester primers. Several of the ones primed with Winchester primers leaked and pitted 3 of my 10mm's in one range session. The same load with CCI or Federal didn't leak. I stopped using Winchester primers and I haven't had a problem since.

You can replace the firing pin bushing and it will look somewhat better but it looks like it damaged the frame some too.

[ErnieDeBord]

You state you shot 600 or so rounds? Its to late now, I always keep "range rag" around when I am shooting, no matter what I am shooting 22 RF on up, every so often I take a break and do a quick wipe clean and look things over. Just a habit I guess, but I have always shot that way, keep the gun from getting hot, a little lube if nessicary etc, might have caught it in time? Anyway 600 rounds is a LOT between cleaning/inspecting, regards Ernie

[S&WNUT]

Originally Posted by ErnieDeBord

You state you shot 600 or so rounds? Its to late now, I always keep "range rag" around when I am shooting, no matter what I am shooting 22 RF on up, every so often I take a break and do a quick wipe clean and look things over. Just a habit I guess, but I have always shot that way, keep the gun from getting hot, a little lube if nessicary etc, might have caught it in time? Anyway 600 rounds is a LOT between cleaning/inspecting, regards Ernie

Ernie a little confusion here the 600 is total for the gun since new. It would get 75 or so each time out and cleaned each time
this time a hundred give or take but only 35 were found to have caused the problem. As I have listened to some of the
people here and thought about it the hard strikes from this
gun on the soft primers deformed them so they leaked with no problems in my tuned guns (range only) with hundreds shot from them. I am not worried about warranty just hope it can be fixed.

[petemacmahon]

Some history here:

Alcan Reloading Components

One of their catalogs from 1966:

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/OM/Alcan.pdf

[theoneff]

S&WNUT would it be possible that the cases are different lengths and some of the longer ones got a very hard roll crimp while reloading, therefore caused a higher pressure load. Just thinkin....

[andyo5]

At one time I used to use a tool to 'uniform' the primer pockets. I found that it caused pitting on the breech faces of my guns due to escaping gases. Needless to say, I threw that brass away and discontinued the practice. No more pitting.
Looking at the photos, I notice the primers look very flattened, some even dished inwards. Not normal. I'd be careful here drawing conclusions. If your loads were not excessive, and your primer pockets had not been messed with; it is possible that the firing pin bushing was incorrectly installed and may have caused the problem.
If you use the same loads in another gun with known good performance, do the primer pockets still leak? (You may already know the answer to this). I wonder whether factory loads would produce the same results in terms of primer leaks. Maybe have an experienced local gunsmith look at it before calling S&W. I believe they could replace the FP bushing, refinish the surrounding metal, and make it look alot better.

[ameridaddy]

My goodness, those are some scary looking primers. For sure you have gas leaking around them. What others said before, and I'll add that I won't load Unique on my progressive press.
In the process of weight checking my Unique loads on some 45 Colt reloads from the progressive, I found the powder measure always crept upward in charge weight, never downward, whether the reservoir was baffled or open, whether the reservoir was full or half, always upward in weight. I checked to be sure the charge screw wasn't creeping, tapped down the reservoir before starting, but always, the charge crept up.
I now throw Unique powder with the measure one case at a time, hand weigh and trickle to adjust all Unique loads now.
I'm using either an old Lyman #55 measure or a Hornady LNL. Using Unique, the Lyman does better than the Hornady for me. Unique is a good powder in its versatility, but meters very badly in my experience. The always creeping heavier charge off the LNL measure scared the daylights out of me. Other powders go up a tenth, down a tenth, back and forth, back and forth, but not Unique. I can't explain it for sure, but I think it's related to settling in the measure reservoir.

I think you're out of luck on a S&W warranty or repair, and maybe a smith could make and fit a larger firing pin bushing, but I don't know if a smith would take on the potential liability.
Primers are cheap. When in doubt, throw them out.

[deadin]

Are you going to send the gun back to S&W?
If, as you seem to suspect, the gun is causing the problem due to an overlong firing pin or too enthusiastic hammer fall, then the problem is with the gun and S&W should make it right.

However, I wouldn't hold my breath.... (but you never know)

[BigMoneyGrip]

It appears to be an over charge to me. You can see some of the primers are flat and there is some flow around the firing pin dent.

[Groo01]

Groo here
Those primers look concave not flat.
If so , I think you have a low pressure that pushed out the primer
with out expanding the case.
This could cause the primer to leak[ less support from the primer pocket] also the impact of the primer / case might also be a factor.
I would not think pressure with a concave primer.

[andyo5]

Primers are cratering and leaking around he edges. What bullet did you use?
Are you certain it was 4.5g of Unique you were using?
I routinely shoot this load for Steel Challenge with a 158g lead bullet. It is a light target load.

[swpc]

Erosion around firing pin bushing , can be ammo ,or primer related , in any event the bushing may be able to be replaced
and the bolster face refinished. You should contact customer service .

[chief38]

I am just wondering WHY you kept firing the same ammo after this situation first started? I would think that you could not have missed this in your routine cleaning sessions. S&W might install a new FP Bushing but the damage around it is part of the Revolver's Frame and can not be reasonably repaired IMHO.

I would ditch the loaded ammo you have with these components and get rid of any remaining stock. I've also used many older components without this happening, but a shooter/re-loader should ALWAYS take note of abnormal signs when cleaning the gun afterwards.