Hey all,

Something I would like help with is what would be the best choice for a carry gun in a small revolver or J-Frame.

I don't think I want to go up to 357mag unless it would be one of the steel 640, 649 or the Ruger LCR.
That puts me in the 38 Special (and +P) or 9mm. I like the idea of the 9mm. Cheap practice ammo compared to the 38 special and 38 Special +P. Ballistics that closely match the 38 Special +P, from what I've read as I don't know for a fact this is true.
I also think the moon clips for the 9mm would facilitate much faster reloads than with the Speed Strips with 38 Special rounds.


So, I'd like to get your thoughts on what would be the best round for a carry revolver. Is there one of them that is above the others when all things are taken into consideration?


The problem with the 9mm is that S&W doesn't make one any longer and I'd have to go with the Ruger LCR or get a 38 Special J-frame and send it off to have custom work done to it to enable it to shoot 9mm. I don't think I'd want to go that route. I'd have to find an older S&W like the PC 940 and I have no clue on what one of those would sell for these days.


Any info or advice you'd like to add, feel free. I'd like to get all the info I can before making a decision on what to buy.


Thank you for your time and any help you can give me.
Larry

Morning Larry

Personally I'm not that big of a fan of carrying a moon clip gun for personal protection. It can be done & some do it but to me the limitations outweigh the benefits.

The first pit fall of carrying a moon clip gun is there are no partial reloads. If you shoot 2 rounds then have a chance to do a top-off you need to drop all 5 (or 6) out of the gun & replace with 5 or 6 more.

The second pitfall (& to me the most troublesome) is a loaded moon clip bends easily & bent moon clips don't always fire the rounds due to the spring effect of a bent clip.

It is not easy to carry a loaded moon clip on the body without a bulky contraption to house it. In-pocket moon clip carry is a sure way to bend one.

For a small pocket carry revolver I am kind of partial to the .327 federal round. You get 6 .327 instead of 5 in 9mm or 38 & the power of the .327 federal is just under the .357 mag with the recoil of a .38 special. (very potent round & you get one extra)-- Down side is the .327 federal is very loud.

I've had 9mm revolvers, but much prefer 38's. At least with a 38 cut for moon clips you have the option of using them or not. To me the clips are a pain to load and something else to worry about getting bent

158gr semi wadcutter. After countless ballistics tests I've viewed, opinions, etc...The conclusion I've come to is (at least short of a hot 357 magnum+) all pistol rounds do is punch holes the size of the bullet.

So with that said go with the biggest you can. 44 special, 45 colt, 45 acp, etc. If you need to stay with a 38 cal then get the one that will push the hardest (158gr) and have the least amount of recoil for ACCURATE shots on vital areas.

My .02

With exception to the Model 547 (K-Frame) you have to use moon clips for the 9MM revolvers. But, moon clips do give you a more positive ejection of the spent cases and faster reloads with practice.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

VERY loud, terribly expensive, and will be very hard to find ammo locally. Pretty much limits you to reloading or internet ammo purchasing.

I am happy with any quality 38 or 38+p ammo out there

Like poster #2 posted Underwood ammo is super hot. I've shot most of the +P 38spl ammo out there in my LCR and underwood ammo was the hottest. Also it doesn't seem to have more of a kick then your regular +p stuff. Yes it is more expensive but it not like going to the rande shooting boxes of it.

These are the two I want to try.

Remington High Terminal Performance Ammo 38 Special +P 158 Grain Lead

This but in 158gr
Remington High Terminal Performance Ammo 38 Special +P 125 Grain

For me these are relatively easy to find locally. Ive tested them with my fingernail and the lead is softer than most I've tested. Overall I feel these could be the best 38 special defense load period.

Ballistically speaking, I really see no big advantage to either. The 9mm gives you slightly lighter, but slightly speedier bullets; the .38, slightly slower, slightly heavier bullets. A wash.

But I like a revolver to shoot a revolver round, and the .38 is a revolver round. Roll-crimped, greatly lessening the chance of recoil-induced bullet pull, and no adaptive gizmo needed to make reliable ejection possible. Yes, the moon clips make for fast, easy reloads -- but so do quality speedloaders, and the relative fragility of the clips (ever try to load and fire with a slightly bent clip?) make a good speedloader more attractive to me.

Your preference may be different, and you'll get no argument from me. But for 9mm packet carry, I'll stick with my Beretta Nano, and stick to .38 for my j-frames.

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Pisgah

"The problem with the 9mm is that S&W doesn't make one any longer and I'd have to go with the Ruger LCR or get a 38 Special J-frame and send it off to have custom work done to it to enable it to shoot 9mm. I don't think I'd want to go that route. I'd have to find an older S&W like the PC 940 and I have no clue on what one of those would sell for these days."

Well, you can buy an LCR in 9 mm:

Ruger® LCR® * Double-Action Revolver Model 5456

Another non-S & W alternative is the Charter Arms Pitbull, no moon clips needed:

79920 9 mm Pitbull Rimless Revolver | Charter Arms

One nice thing about most guns is you can buy one with careful shopping, try it out and then sell it for very little loss if it doesn't work out for you. Good luck in your decision.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I have a shoot both 9mm and 38 J frames, so I'll chime in.

Having been down this road, unless you want to split hairs the 38 is an easy answer. 9mm revolvers are and i think always will be rare and a bit odd. The best of the readily available currently is the ruger lcr, but it's downside is weight at ~17oz. The charter arms may be ok, but there are too many mixed reviews for me. 940's and other smiths are hard to find and may be cost prohibitive. 750 and up if my recent searches are indicitave.

Back to the real issue 9 vs 38?

Ballistically the 9mm often does a touch better out of a short barrel, but is it significant? You be the judge, some say all pistol calibers 9/38 and up are "good enough". 9 is cheaper, so if you shoot a lot there will be savings. 9 is one of the most prevalent cartridges around so it may be easier to find (however during some panics it was also the one of the first to disappear). There are probably more options for 9mm including high quality defense rounds than any other round. If you reload then it's probably a wash, heck 38 might even be easier to handload...others will have to confirm.

9mm does require moon clips in almost all guns. It does, generally, necessitate reloads of a full cylinder at a time. I've fine with both. On the plus side moonclip reloads are as faster for me than any other method. Partial reloads are possible w/ cut moonclips and some may be commercially available even. Guns like the governor use them, as supplied by S&W. Moon clips can and do bend but this doesn't happen every time you drop them in a pocket and it's easy to check. The only shooters I've know to have this happen with any frequency at all are comp shooters, usually b/c they get stepped on it seems.

Recoil: in my guns most factory ammo for 9 recoils just slightly more than 38. It's hard to tell unless you shoot them back to back. In reality I think its a wash if you have decent technique, neither are so harsh as to create problems for most shooters. This is in stark contrast to 357 out of the small guns, which often sees 1 round or 1 cylinder before a shooter stops.

Noise/concussion: I don't notice any appreciable difference b/w the 2. Certainly there is some, but it's close enough to not be a factor.

In the end I have both and carry both from time to time. I'm not 100% which gun I'd keep if I could only have 1 j frame. It'd probably be the 9mm conversion of a mp340...98% sure, but keep in mind that I'm $900 or so into the gun, moon clips etc, and I got a great deal on it to start.

I think the ballistics tell the story. I would not concern myself with the brand of the launching pad.
Ballisticsbytheinch.com says a 124g 9mm GDHP out of a 2" barrel is 1074 fps and a 135g GDHP is 756 fps (although it is advertised a little faster). Energy is an additional factor to consider.
If it were my primary, I would go with the 9mm and use 124g+P or +P+. And I would go to a semi-auto with more rounds.
I carry a .38spcl J-frame with the GDHP short barrel as a backup to either a 40, 45, or 10mm.
And stay away from cheap guns - it's your life, how much is it worth?

I think 9mm revolvers of any kind are more of an enthusiasts and special interest gun. Bullet creep is a real problem in 9mm, especially in lightweight revolvers. 38 spc is available from mild to wild, while 9mm is not commercially loaded down for practice/plinking since it needs to be hot enough to cycle automatics.

We use Doplar Radar for our speed tests. It is set up on the range now, along with our pressure testing equipment. I can tell you that when testing 9mm and .38 special, when all things are equal, bullet weight and barrel length. Apples to Apples, NOT different weights. The difference is almost covered in standard deviation. Really, it's a wash. Really. This is in testing small revolvers. Not autos against revolvers. Apples to Apples.

Afternoon Lee's Landing Billy

I have a difficult time with understanding how you are coming up with your data.

Same bullet weight, same barrel length but much different working pressures should mean that the 9mm would be measurably faster as the pressures are way higher on the 9mm.

If your defined difference is covered in the standard deviation of your testing then your testing deviations must be enormous.

.38 Special:= 17,000 psi (std.)___ 20,000 psi in (+P)

9x19mm:= 35,000 psi (std.)__ 38,500 psi in (+P)

Good points on Lee's Landing Billy and Robert1804. I don't use 9mm - too little for my piece of mind. Guess I was saying if it was a small caliber choice, I would want as many rounds as I could get - a G17 comes to mind.
My summer carry is a S&W 40C - 10+1
In winter I normally go to a Commander.
But always have the "J" if necessary for immediate deployment.

I don't know if pressures come into play in the discussion necessarily. My 38 Super is only moderately outdone by my 10mm, yet an impressive difference in performance.

I own several 9mm Glocks, so the concept of a 9mm revolver and completely standardizing on 9mm sounds appealing, at the least on the surface.

However, after researching the idea multiple times, the conclusion I always reach is that it just isn't practical and it is for good reasons why you don't see more 9mm defensive revolvers. The moonclips themselves(particularly for 9mm and .38) are thin, fragile and easily bent. Another problem with 9mm in a light revolver is bullet jump. There are S&W snubs (642/442/640) chambered in .38 special cut for moon-clips and you supposedly can fire them without any problems without the moon-clips, but I'm not entirely convinced of that. I've talked with a couple of revolver gunsmiths and instructors and their thinking was that you could still have headspacing and possible ignition issues as well as higher risk of case under extractor jams. Better just to get the regular models to avoid potential problems. I also found the moon-clips to be a bit clumsy as the rounds move around much more then I expected. A speed loader holds the rounds much more firmly.

So, to me the best option in a snub revolver is for it to be chambered .38 special/.357 magnum and using speedloaders and/or speed strips for loading/reloading.

The kick is much different than from a revolver because the spring transfers the recoil impulse to you over more time and it 'feels' softer.

A disadvantage of putting a 9mm in a snub also is that it wastes power at the barrel cylinder gap. Though it's only about 50 fps second loss while a 9mm semi has no gap to lose power through and can get decent velocity from a 2" barrel.

I just tested my own .38 ammo out of a model 36 and got 950 fps with 135 gr Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel bullets. I can cool the velocity down to 850 fps where Speer has tested and got good expansion/penetration.

I put a Hogue Monogrip on my mod 38 Airweight, I have yet to test it but it HAS to be better. With two piece soft grips it really hurts to shoot anything over a target load. I don't mind that for SD, but practice will be wearing.

I guess what all this boils down to is that I haven't tried 9mm in a revolver or moon clips but I've been able to get satisfaction in .38 ammo for a 'J' frame snub.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Never used moon clips - don't really know much about them. They do look a little fragile. I always used speed loaders and carry one in my pocket. And 1 extra 40 or 45 magazine.

I don't defend or poo poo any choice - I just tell people to be comfortable and feel secure in what they carry. While I said my primary would not be the J-frame, I always remind myself that 80 or so years of police work was carried on successfully with the 38 spcl.

And I would go up against a Grizzly with a 22LR if that's all that was available - well maybe I would.

Hey!! Wolverine! Just got back from the range. I readily accept that the felt recoil is discernable. Just that the given velocities are almost on top of each other that we tested. The 2 inch guns wreak havoc on the 125 9mms. The 125 .38s while slower of course than 4s or 6s are usually on par with the 9s when tested in actual guns.

Guys I just looked at some old paperwork around here and this is what I found
9mm 124s 870 fps from a Ruger LCR
38 Spec 125s at 760 from a Chief
110 fps slower, so obviously outside any deviation comparison. I'm old, sometimes I get confused. Anyway, at a 110 fps average I still think it's almost a toss up. We'll have to get some penetration numbers together too.

Many people talk about bullet creep and I'm sure it happens but as one who has and shoots a 9mm revolver, I've never expereinced it. I'm probably ~500 rounds down range through a couple guns 940/340 so it's a limited sample but I think if you choose quality ammo this is more a talking point than reality.

Evening cleans up

I can see & measure 9mm bullet creep with a lot of hot factory ammo.

If all cylinder holes are fired then the creep isn't enough to be concerning but if I leave a round or two in the moon clip then run them though a cycle (or especially 2 cycles) with fresh ammo in the other positions I can sometimes get enough creep to lock the cylinder up.

I don't seem to have a creep problem with my lower powered hand loads that I shoot for practice.

My usually procedure is to only cycle the rounds one time on my 9mm revolvers then on the ones that I don't shoot I pull from the moon clips & shoot in my semi-autos.

Hello, thought I would chime in, I'm holding a new ca pit bull has 6 shots 2.5" , SS. Sounds great, but I'm not liking that load one shell at a time, each one has to be pushed all the way in and seated. Not reliable extraction. I got it because I just got a CA bulldog, 44sp. And I love it, 20 oz. of big bore fun! Back to the 9mm, I have a speed six 9mm and prefer the moon clips. Me thinks I'll stick to 38s. Have a 36,60 and carry a LCR in 38 the most.

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NRA Life Member
CPO

38 special simply because it's been sufficient for 118 years.

One of the main considerations for going with semis was firepower with 3x more capacity than a revolver and a quick reload. 9mm gets a little more velocity, but they both shoot about the same bullet.

With a J frame I could engage one to as many as five w/o reloading. Four get one each and the last for one that is still kicking. Three get one each and two shots left. Two perps get two shots each and an extra 'just in case'. One perp gets all five. I'm not a big believer in the one shot stop.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I shoot the Fed 124 gold-dots out of my 9mm LCR.
I have a 642 Pro, also. (Moonclips).
When I have the chance, I will be adding the LCR to my License.
Why? Because the trigger is lighter and it lines up quicker for me.
(But watch out for that cylinder-release screw for wanting to back out.)
Either one would be nice for pocket-carry when summer arrives again.

I will argue for the 9mm from a snub, faster/more energy/less dramatic at the business end, in short I think the snub was made for the 9 and ammo costs for 9mm is much less than for .38.

Some talk of jump crimp-its a non issue for us try as we can the phenomena cannot be duplicated.

Moonies, ditto a non issue-not needed for the gun to fire (Ruger) and unless you are using +p or the Russian stuff most of the spent rounds will fall out with a shake of the gun.

As for the Ruger LCR .357, caveat emptor -the cylinder is a beast to manipulate but the rest of the gun is typical Ruger, LCR that is.

For civilian self defense the snub in either .38 or 9mm is ideal, easy to carry, any idiot can use one, and it will go bang every time AND 5 or 6 is way way more than one will ever need; the stats back this up.

As I have previously posted in other threads, I have been carrying & shooting a 9mm LCR for about 16.5 months. During that time I have shot mine many times without Moonclips and have satisfied my question of reliability. I carry it loaded with a Moonclip in a Mika Pocket Holster, a Speed Strip for a 327 with 6 rounds in the watch pocket above the gun & if wearing a cover garment a Spare Moonclip in the strong side pocket. Current carry load is the 147 Grain HST, have been testing with the 147 Gold Dot also. My Son has also pocket carried an 9mm LCR for the past 15 months. Total round count for both is near if not over 1k. Both have the Hogue G10 Grip and XS Standard Dot Night Sights.

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Retired & Livin' my DREAM :)

Alot of good info posted above,
Bottom line for me is I dont like loading unloading moon clips and the money you would save in ammo would be eaten up in the up charge of a 9mm revolver vs same gun in 38 special.

I would add that I do not shoot my J snubs at the range very often, usually only when I get a box of new CCW ammo to test fire it as it isnt as accurate or pleasant to shoot at the range as my 4" Combat Masterpiece.

The ballistic advantage of 9mm over .38 +P exists but is slight and if that is your ultimate concern the .357 Magnum is much more powerful than 9mm +P+ ......On a side note shooting full house .357 Mag in a J frame is not pleasant even in a SS 3" J frame with FG combat stocks ...
And as for as shooting .357 magnum in a 2" Scandium Airweight snub with Magna stocks... uhhh ......No.... Thank You.....No Thanks .

I'm not really a 10mm fan, but all of this is pretty spot on. In real life I can NEVER think of a time someone should ever be faced with a situation to where partial reloads would be a good idea.

Is that a 2 inch revolver barrel or 2 inch semi-auto barrel? And they are different. The cylinder is not counted on a revolver so if you measure from the base of the bullet to the muzzle a 2 inch revolver has a longer barrel than my Kahr PM9 with a 3 inch barrel.

Indeed the measurements for wheel guns vs semi are different, but posted values on bbti are for actual length. By some estimation you might take into account the difference. In this case however 9 vs 38 can be directly compare as the original question is 38 vs 9 in a j frame, so both suffer from cylinder gap and take advantage of cylinder length. Perhaps you may argue that 9 has an advantage being the shorter cartridge....but I can't see well enough to split hairs that finely.

Either way there is an advantage to 9 by the numbers, as there is to 357. More meaningful though is questioning if the numbers matter, and many feel they are "close enough for gov work". I'll still take the 9

Have you chronographed 9mm defensive loads with your LCR ?

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Train to win

rw, you reminded me of an unanswered question I have concerning energy loss from ignition to flight. I understand it's not a big number and would vary from one pistol to another, even between same models. In a revolver fps are lost due to barrel-cylinder gap. How much energy is used to cycle the semi auto? Another nano number affected by the many variables concerning each pistol. Just curious. Thanks
Merry Christmas to all

Afternoon vanman1

Quite a bit of energy is used to cycle a semi-auto but if the gun is designed correctly & the lock-up delay is designed correctly that energy is used after the bullet leaves the barrel.

If the barrel/slide starts moving before bullet exit that really degrades accuracy.

Try a HARDCAST 148 gr. FULL WADCUTTER.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

Engine, if you can do so try a lcr in 9 I am confident that this will be enough to convince you, it really is an amazing gun and the cost of 9mm compared to .38 is huge.
The 9 out of a snub has a significant advantage compared to a .38 (which was originally a black powder round) BUT either will dispatch someone intent on doing you harm very quickly, so buy what you shoot best so long as it is a wheel gun. Heck even the lowly .22 will get the job done and the .22 wmr will really get the job done.

With a J frame I'll go with a +P. Sometimes when I carry my 60-15 I'll load up the the .357.

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

What do you mean by "Hot"?? Higher velocity? If it has a higher velocity it then has higher recoil. You may not notice a significant change, but it still does have more recoil, simple physics. You can use any formula that you like to calculate free recoil all will show you that the recoil is greater. If you shoot a 125 grain out of your gun @ 800 fps, then you shoot a 125gr @ 950 fps the recoil is greater. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

I carry 38+P in my 642J-Frame. Practice with standard load 38s. Why pick this caliber?... because I also own a 686 and 627PC as well. That way I don't have to be too particular with ammo, however it is a little bothersome to have 5-shot and 6-shot HKS speed-loaders, as well as 8-shot moon clips... Each loader for a different weapon...

I found my question answered here: JFrame Chronograph results - .38spl, 9mm, .38 Super, 9x23 Winchester During his testing a 9mm 115g +P cartridge chronographs at 1098 fps. Muzzle velocity in his converted J Frame was 899 fps with the same cartridge.

I tested Speer 135g GDHP in my J Frame and it chronographs at 872 fps at the muzzle. It would appear there would be no advantage to having my J Frame converted to 9mm, but buying a dedicated compact revolver chambered in 9mm would give me a velocity advantage. I find it easier to carry speed strips than moon clips or speed loaders for my 5 shot revolver, so in my case I would have to give the .38 Special the nod.

I would not shoot +P+ 9mm out of a J Frame. I believe Tom Kilhoffer advises against it if you have him convert your J Frame to 9mm. If you could carry a +P+ load in your J Frame, I would not know how it performs in the field. I have seen a few people shot with 115g +P+ fired out of a 4" semi-automatic and the results were disappointing. Calculated muzzle energy numbers were impressive, but performance in the field was not.

I believe I will stick with my BG38 and Speer 135g GDHP if I want to carry a small revolver and carry my Sig P938 if I decide I want to carry 9mm.

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Train to win

158 grain all lead hollowpoint 38 is bout as good as any 9mm round

If you are talking about the old FBI load, I carried the all lead +P 158g HP in a J Frame for years. I put several injured deer down with it. Then I had an opportunity to shoot the load into ballistic gelatin with my Model 60 and it did not expand. Penetration was good, but no expansion. I've been told the cartridge performs well when fired through a revolver with a 4" or longer barrel.

On the same day, I shot Speer 135g +P GDHP into gelatin with excellent expansion and 13" of penetration. Recoil was also a little less than with the FBI load. I have been carrying the Speer load ever since.

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Train to win

I'd go with the Underwood version but speer is great load also

I read a response to a similar question on another forum and the poster said the 9mm round was designed for a semi/full auto application and other than cost savings for practice the revolver is best suited for the round it was intended for.

I have a J frame in 38/357 and as all have mentioned, the recoil in 357 is simply brutal. It`s like getting slapped in the hand with a Louisville Slugger! Switched to 38+P and recoil, while still somewhat snappy, is manageable, even for her. Ammo availability for both should be good so that doesn`t really factor in the equation.
Thus, for what it`s worth, the vote from the deep south is the 38+P.

It is what I do not observe/experience from the 9mm snub that convinces me this round is ideal for the short barreled revolver.

The only things one realizes with a .38 and .357 from a snub compared to a 9mm snub is truly spectacular muzzle blast and flame, which is positive indication of wasted energy and alot of wasted energy.

If one subscribes to the notion that any advantage in self protection is significant then one must subscribe to the -fact- that the 9mm is superior.

I am not suggesting that a .357 will NOT penetrate better than either a hot .38 or 9mm but it does so with punishing recoil-blast and flame each of which more than offsets the extra absolutely uncontrollable power.

The 9mm cartridge truly is not only made for the snub it is tailor made for the snub revolver-its, well; obvious.

Please remember that my comments are made regarding which gun and caliber is superior for the 'average' civilian for concealed carry / personal protection.

Come to think of it, the 9mm just may be the best choice for any civilian regardless of skill level but I do support the right of anyone to carry the handgun of their choice.