Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ??

1sailor said:

Nasty recoil?? While I have noticed some pain I have never experienced any "nasty recoil". Which airweight do you carry?

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I'm sure he just means sharp muzzle flip... of which the .357 is known for in anything "J" frame with a 1 & 7/8th inch barrel. Good round, good gun, just takes a long time to learn to shoot it fast and adequately.

HamHands said:

I'm sure he just means sharp muzzle flip... of which the .357 is known for in anything "J" frame with a 1 & 7/8th inch barrel. Good round, good gun, just takes a long time to learn to shoot it fast and adequately.

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Correct, and thanks for the assist.

What you get by stepping up to 357 form 38 in a snubby is an increase in muzzle energy. You also gain dazzling muzzle flash. The recoil is uncomfortable in a steel frame and down right painful and nerve damaging in an airweight design. Recovery for follow up shots are slowed. Stopping power is more based on bullet type and placement of shot. The 357 is much better used in a full sized service revolver for 99.99% of shooters regardless of what is claimed.Much more controllable and vastly increased power from longer barrels.

I carry a snub by in 357 sometimes with a 2 3/4” barrel. But I carry the 44 mag more.

Firesticks said:

What you get by stepping up to 357 form 38 in a snubby is an increase in muzzle energy. You also gain dazzling muzzle flash. The recoil is uncomfortable in a steel frame and down right painful and nerve damaging in an airweight design. Recovery for follow up shots are slowed. Stopping power is more based on bullet type and placement of shot. The 357 is much better used in a full sized service revolver for 99.99% of shooters regardless of what is claimed.Much more controllable and vastly increased power from longer barrels.

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Agreed! For carrying my "J" frames... I feel a 150grain hard cast full wad-cutter and/or a 158grain soft cast LHP moving @ 850fps out of the 1 &7/8th inch barrel to be the happy spot for shoot-ability while having the right amount of punch on the other end for "Urban/Suburban Carry."

Perceived recoil is subjective; like some, I prefer the .44 special in a medium sized snubby (296) over a J frame with any typical duty load in .38 or 9mm (my sole J frame now is a 940). I found that only the WC target load or standard velocity 158 grain SWC is a good choice in a J frame. YMMV, but I'll bet a lot that for the vast majority (98+%) of shooters, if tested with a shot timer and held to a reasonable standard, the .357 in a J frame is simply not a good choice.

To me, a J frame is almost NEVER a sole carry gun, but is only a BUG, and to be used more or less at contact range. As such, I am looking for decent penetration and controllability, not maximum potential performance that is almost certainly wasted. In my 940, I carry 147 grain gold dot at standard pressure and velocity, because it is a proven load and the least obnoxious to shoot.

I agree that perceived recoil is subjective. What seems unbearably punishing for one person, another might find invigorating. In order to get an objective sense of recoil, put it on the clock. How do your split times differ between standard pressure .38 Special, +P, and 357 Magnum in your carry gun? Secondly, does that difference matter? If you can put 5 rounds into 5" at 5 yards in 5 seconds or less from low ready consistently, you can build from there.

Discomfort is indeed highly subjective, but physics is not. No matter how well you can shoot .357, you will be able to shoot .38 better. Remember that the goal is not the most possible velocity/energy, but enough velocity/energy for the bullet to do its job. And I think we all know that a solid hit from a .38 will always beat a marginal hit (or a miss) with a .357. No one can give the answer to anyone else. All I can say is test it for yourself, and be honest with yourself about the results.

Doug M. said:

Perceived recoil is subjective; like some, I prefer the .44 special in a medium sized snubby (296) over a J frame with any typical duty load in .38 or 9mm (my sole J frame now is a 940). I found that only the WC target load or standard velocity 158 grain SWC is a good choice in a J frame. YMMV, but I'll bet a lot that for the vast majority (98+%) of shooters, if tested with a shot timer and held to a reasonable standard, the .357 in a J frame is simply not a good choice.

To me, a J frame is almost NEVER a sole carry gun, but is only a BUG, and to be used more or less at contact range. As such, I am looking for decent penetration and controllability, not maximum potential performance that is almost certainly wasted. In my 940, I carry 147 grain gold dot at standard pressure and velocity, because it is a proven load and the least obnoxious to shoot.

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I certainly prefer my 696 filled with 200gr Gold Dot .44Specials for sure for around town; for Woods, 255 grain Underwood HC Keith's are the ticket. But for nighttime neighborhood walks with dogs, and CVS runs before it closes... It's much easier to pocket (2) "J" frames; strong side front pocket and rear pocket in pocket holsters and/or a Bianchi M58 Holster.

As to the emboldened/highlighted... you are correct in regards to both of those loadings at being very effective; there are others too though! Heavy hard cast full wad cutters are absolutely devastating. I only thought they were good for punching paper until I contacted Tim Sundles and he recommended them for J frames. Then I read a couple dozen instances/first hand experiences from ex-cops that carried this load in the 60's, 70's, and 80's that swore by them to be a fight stopper. Other similar accounts were with the semi-wad cutter HP's made of soft cast lead, no jacket, again, pushed to about 850fps from a 2" J frame Smith or D frame Colt. So when I carry my J's, one is loaded with Buffalo Bore full wads and the other is with the "BB" semi-wad HP soft casts. And like you said, split times are very good with both loads.

Good job on the 147 standard pressure GD's. I've been carrying them for years in my CZ P-01. An equal load that I use interchangeably is the 147 grain, standard pressure, Federal HST's. Both are stellar!

Lastly, a pic is of an IDPA target @ 10 yards with the aforementioned M36 "J's", each loaded with the above mentioned loads.


Pic of my 12"x18" popper plate from a farm shoot day I organized last summer. 90% of these hits are at 20+ yards; with above mentioned loads out of both my J frame Smiths and my D frame Colt. Both my brothers "J" frames and two other friends with their J frame Smith...


Last pic is of my "Woods Carry" primary and back-up. My 629 with the 255 Keiths from Underwood and M36 with the Hard Cast full-wads from Buffalo Bore... makes for a great combo!

I carry .357 Silvertips in my nickel 19-3. They kick more because they are more powerful than .38 Specials. If the short barrel neutered them down to .38 level, they would kick the same, right?

I’ve read shooting reports where these old fashioned Silvertips worked just fine out of 2 1/2” and 3” barrels. Plus, they look cool.

Thoughtful post from HamHands. I bet he is younger than me, as I can't see the J frame fixed sights (or most typical revolver fixed sights) well enough to shoot to a reasonable standard of time and performance.

In the late ‘70’s I tried different reloads looking for the most accurate round for my 6” barreled colt Python. The 125 through 158gr the JHP.
My most accurate load out to 100 yds with the 6” barrel was the Speer 140gr JHP bullets using 2400 powder. In my police service six With the 2 3/4” barrel I carry the 140gr jhp’s. It’s my only snubby revolver.

I’m not fond of short barrels but my s&w m58/4” barrel is gaining popularity with me.

Nothing wrong with 357 Magnum ammo in a snub nose revolver if.....
you can handle the extra noise, heavier recoil, extra muzzle flip and
extra time to get back on target for your 2nd shot if needed.

I saw a slow motion camera on the snub .357 with a magnum loading
and it showed the recoil, muzzle flip, the rising of the weapon in the shooter's hold
and what surprised me, was the hammer actually going backwards from its fired position as to re-cock...........
from the amount of forces brought into the act of firing.

The cylinder flash, muzzle flash and bullet exit was........ neat.

However the 38 +P is also nice for many.

It's my opinion that the only things you will gain in a .357 J-frame snubby are vicious recoil and longer recovery time for any follow-up shots that might be needed.

My favorite lightweight J-frame Centennials are .38 Specials. I shoot target wadcutters in them for practice, followed by a few +P stompers. I doubt that a bad guy hit with a +P .38 instead of a .357 would know the difference, and inasmuch as shot placement counts more than power, the .38s will be easier to control.



If you really have to have a snubby S&W revolver in .357, I would strongly suggest getting a K-frame Model 19 or a Model 66. They are heavier, controlling recoil better, and offer the advantage of a 6th shot. With the right holster, stocks and covering garment, they are not all that hard to carry discreetly.

John

Nalapombu said:

Quite a few were saying that since the barrel is as short as it is the 357mag doesn't have enough barrel to achieve its ideal velocity and therefore you are better off using a good 38 Special load with less recoil for better and more accurate follow up shots.

I don't know if that's true or not.

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According to Ballistics by the Inch, the .357 gets almost twice the ft lbs of energy over the .38 from a 2 1/2 inch barrel.

There are a select few that just cannot handle that fact..and shout from the hilltops "38 and 357 are the same in a snub" Its a real eye opener when they touch a .357 off in a snub after a couple of 38+p's....I can understand not wanting more power than special in a snub...but for those who do...

If I was unfortunate enough to ever be in a defensive situation, I'd be glad I had a Ruger Standard loaded with 22LR.

But when I do carry my 357 snub it's always loaded with 38 wadcutters.

Just a caution, the big difference is noise and hearing loss from the 357 over the 38 and +P loads. Range practice is one thing with hearing protection, but without - a few rounds of 357 can have lasting damage. I recommend double hearing protection with the 357 (I use always).

Groo here
I can't take it any more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To all those who worry about fast second shots STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your first shot is the most important one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We [ non cops] only hit 30% of the time.......
Stop shooting faster , start hitting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you Shoot "in the middle" few of you will HIT any slower
with a magnum over a special.
Your not shooting a "wonder 9" with lots of shells and a recoil
absorbing action and light trigger.
You are shooting a trigger cocking revolver [12lb +-]
And few can work that trigger AND hit the target at speed.
The guns just will not work that fast.[even if you work the trigger
as you come down from the kick]
I am coming to the realization that the single action revolver
might be a better action [ when used correctly] with more hits
than a double action.
It is safer,don't cock it till you NEED it, it is more accurate,good trigger,
easier to hit with ,points well, and most start with 327 or 357 mag rounds or bigger.
With such guns, "one in the middle" will at least cause the bad dude
to pause and reconsider.[allowing you to "hit them again" if needed..]

I had a 642 for about a year. Put about a 1,000 rounds through it. Shot it well with light range fodder. But when I loaded heavier, it really bit my wee little bony hand.

I turned it into a 649 and never looked back. I don’t run full magnums, but handloads that are tailored to my ability are similar in power, or so they feel, to Rem Golden Saber 125s.

The extra weight makes all the difference for me.

My next purchase will most likely be a K frame snub, maybe that ported 19 that just came out? But then I see a recessed 19 like edmo’s and realize that is what I want. And for the $1,000+ that new 19 will go for, I can buy a really sweet old one.

I have considered the 69 2.75”, as I just love my 4.25” 69, but my 220 compact talks me out of it every time.

All that said, I don’t feel under gunned with stout 38s, as a back up.

I’ve been a range officer for the last 25 years and get the opportunity to shoot a LOT. As such, recoil from the .357’s in J frames doesn’t bother me too much and I will gladly trade the increased muzzle blast and flash for the increase in performance. I have done a lot of testing with ballistic gel and most of the .38 special loads just do not expand out of a 2” barrel, even a lot of the plus P’s. That being said, everyone should carry what they are most confident at getting first rounds on the target with. As has been said before, a hit with a .38 beats a miss with a .44 every time.

The two J frames that I carry most often are my 640 Pro loaded with Remington 125 grain .357 Golden Sabers and my model 60 with the lug barrel loaded with 135 grain Speer .357 Short Barrel Gold Dot. After extensive testing I settled on these loads for these particular revolvers as they hit to the point of aim and shot the best groups at 20 yards out of their respective guns.

As an aside, being 60 my eyes don’t pick up those tiny J frame sights as well as they once did. I have replaced the front sights on both with an XS Big Dot sight with the tritium insert. Not the best choice for shooting tiny little groups but at 5-10 yards just place that big white dot in the center of a B-27 or bad guy’s chest and squeeze the trigger. I do a lot of camping and it is a comforting feeling to be in a tent and look over beside your sleeping bag at night and see that glowing green dot as a night light!