As the owner of several modern Smith revolvers--with the lock--I had always been skeptical about the frequently expressed concern that the lock could spontaneously engage....until today that is. I set up a target and started shooting with my model 632. On what should have been the 5th shot the gun locked up. I've read that this was most likely to occur when shooting heavy loads in light revolvers. I was shooting very light handloads--1.5gr Bullseye, 90 grain cast bullet in .32 acp cases. Furthermore, I've shot this gun very little since buying it new and always with light or moderate loads. I've never used .327 magnums--.32 long, .32 HandR, .32acp only.
This incident has caused me to seriously rethink some things. My usual carry guns have been a 642 or a 432--both with locks. I will be having those removed and in the meantime will go back to carrying my 70's vintage Chief's Special.
Lock failure--IT CAN AND DOES HAPPEN!

Any serious Smith I buy... that damned Hell Hole gets snatched out as quick as I can degrease the revolver and an Original Precision lock delete from JD... If you can change your spark plugs in your truck you can install the lock delete with just some patience and watching the YouTube video's.

I'm sorry that your rig locked up OP. Thank God it didn't happen in a SD situation. My "N" frame's definitely get the Lock Delete because they are carried as "Woods-Guns" and I do shoot the 255 grain Hard Cast in the 625 and certainly the 300 grain pills in the 629. Check out originalprecision.com and/or contact J.D. "the owner" for help with your order if you need help. I can walk you thru the de-install/install if you PM me.

Thanks for your kind offer to talk me through "dehorning" the lock. I found a good youtube video and "got 'er done."

I've locked up a 686 with a lock, shooting my monster Ruger loads! I mean the whole gun seized! Hammer wouldn't go back. Cylinder wouldn't turn. You name it.
Did the lock fail? Nope. It appeared to me at the time, the brass expanded enough to lock itself on the recoil shield. As after it cooled, you could see all the brass was scraping there. It's been so long I really don't know if that was really what was up. I still shoot the gun today. All I did was clean it afterwards. It could turn and open after it cooled a bit.
Were you able to disengage the lock therefore letting the gun fire? Did the gun seize completely and let you open the cylinder after? What did you see that made you realize the lock did fail?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

It locked up completely--nothing would move, couldn't open the cylinder. As I was testing new handloads at first thought the problem might be ammo-related, then I remembered the lock, found the key and unlocked it. It's functioning normally now, but I don't trust it until the lock's dehorned.

You are the second person I know of that the lock did fail then. The first guy described using the key also. And his was a small J frame.
Sometimes its ammo related like what happened to me.
So far....none of my K, L or N frames have locked up- due to the lock! (Knock on wood)
I don't think I'll be disabling any locks on mine-due to the fact that they've never failed me at the range where I use them.....Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

It was definitely the lock. Got the key, turned it and it worked fine.

I am picking up a 627 Monday. Might have to look into these youtube videos you speak of.

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Smith all the things

I don’t ccw carry s&w revolvers with or without the loc. As well as my other valuable handguns. There pristine and worth too much. I carry an old war horse that’s dependable as throwing a stone.(cz82).

But that’s bad news it locked up. I hammered my new m58 with federal magnum loads with no problem.

For hunting I bought a used ruger SBH 10.5” barrel.

Lock up is extremely rare. But still, if its a 10 minute youtube job to remove it, why not. Never had issue with any of mine so far, though.

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Smith all the things

I removed the lock from my 637 and just left the hole. I guess I need to do that with my other carry guns.

Any mechanical device can fail given enough time and use. I have seen hammers break. Excrement occurs.

had a 625 lock during an idpa match, thought it was a bent moon clip or high primer pulled trigger hard to go thru it. The gun went back to S and w they replaced many parts, still have it minus the lock, won't ever buy another smith with a lock

I had a Model 25-13 MTN GUN in 45 Colt lock up twice on my with Cowboy loads on first outing, you could see the flag up on it, and a 438 locked up after 3 shots. I removed lock from both and they worked fine afterward.

I am trying to understand what happened with the factory repair. I understand they replaced many parts. Did they replace the lock? Did they replace other malfunctioning parts? Did they return it to you with or without a functioning lock? Did you remove the lock after the return from service? Previous posts have maintained that SW will only return a gun in "factory condition," meaning in this case with an operational lock. Or did you re-remove the lock after return? Not judging, just trying to understand.

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Some collect art; I shoot it!

I know the chances of failure are remote. But any handgun I've owned has been for defense, not hunting or range duty, and I wouldn't take the chance to own one with the lock in place. I understand the new S&W revolvers are quality products; but if I could buy one (I can't) I would immediately remove the lock and plug the hole. I don't like even remote chances of failure in a gun I might need to save my ancient bacon.

Now I'm counting down till this thread gets closed on the grounds that the subject has (a) been done to death, and (b) it's covered by the Ayoob article.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Ayoob file???

Are there legal implications to removing the lock?

In your area it could be possible, but I believe it would be more of a factor in the civil suit as ammo against you attacking the mindset rather than the action. A shooting should be judged on whether the act was a lawful use of deadly force or not rather than the tool in a criminal trial. But with people like the way they are and juries are people, you really don't know.

The IL is a "storage device" not a "safety"! How would a legal issue arise?

A prosecutor bent on making an example will find anything to nitpick. Jurors are not experts and it can be damaging to your case when they hear a "lock" being removed. They may not know any better.

Dont be so sure that what you know as being legal will hold up in court.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

ONE RAMIFICATION IS THAT IT WILL VOID YOUR FACTORY WARRANTY ! ! !

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

Just put it back in to sent off for warrantee service.

New around here, and let me say up front I will not have a serious use Smith with with the IL. I don't need to be convinced it's a really bad idea.

But, I don't understand all the "likes" for the origianl post. We're glad a firearm chad a catastrophic failure?

Subtly

No, they just just put it back in place when you send it in. My 329 pd locked up due to the lock one time so I just removed it. Later I sent the gun in for a new blast shield and they replaced the lock. I just take out again

Can't you just add a G to your lock and fix your CCW by making it a ... wait for it ...
GLOCK!?!

GF

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SWCA #2420

Some will say "I told you so." But not me. I will stifle myself and I will not...

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Why should it get closed, shouldazagged? The OP is posting about a real problem he encountered and not something he just heard. And he is saying that he is going to remove the lock and not ranting on and on about new revolver quality or whining incessantly about the locks like some do. And I can understand his concern about the lock engaging on his self defense gun. As a matter of fact, it makes me think twice about removing the lock out of my wife's model 60. As that is her self defense gun at the house while I am 750 miles away at work for 2 weeks at the time. The lock is in it for now, but I can see myself removing it in the near future.

Ralph G. Briscoe, thanks for posting up about the lock engaging on your gun and not ranting on and having a hissy fit about it.

Thanks for the kind words Doc. Us gun guys do seem to love a good debate, but no offense taken from anyone. I'll be 70 in a couple weeks--too old to fight

I know the OP wasn't ranting, and had a genuine concern, which I said I share. I would not, repeat not leave the lock in place on a new gun.

I was just observing that these threads tend to get locked down after a while on grounds of repetition.

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Oh well, what the hell.

smith replaced lock ,cylinder stop ,hand and cylinder . i removed the lock the best part of this repair was I got performance center cylinder (beveled)

I've had Smiths lock up, too. I never thought to blame the lock. Why? Because they didn't have one. Moral of the story: Revolvers can lock up for any number of reasons. Was the lock the culprit... or the scape goat?

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~ S&W aficionado in training ~

I bought my 642 ~3yr ago online, and WITHOUT an internal lock. That model is STILL available without the internal lock. A valid option for those concerned.

The 642 without the lock is a good/great SD carry, IMO. I've carried it for 3yr but recently shifted to a SS framed K6S, capable of .357 rounds. I am seriously thinking of keeping/using the K6S with only 38Spec+P for carry. Much more controllable rounds IMO, particularly, in a lightweight (23oz).

I have both a 686 and 627 for the big rounds and will keep them as "Range Revolvers", as least for now.

There is no need to remove the whole lock. Just take out the "flag" part of the lock and grind off the "nub" and re install.

Lock!? Smith and Wesson's have a lock!?

There are good reasons Mr Murphy came out with his pronouncements.

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

That did it!
My new 686 plus and 586 l-comp are going in our garage sale.

How much should I ask for two unsafe revolvers?

Ralph,

Thanks for posting this. I think this is useful information.

None of my EDC pieces have a manually operated internal lock so I don't have a dog in this fight. Personally I wouldn't recommend disabling any safety/lock feature in any carry gun. I'd simply carry something else.

I do have two range toys with internal locks, 625 & 986, zero issues, zero concerns.

Anything designed by man can fail. Apollo 13 ring a bell? Over the course of three decades I saw hundreds of men and women every year qualifying, training, and practicing with S&W revolvers. Although it was very rare, I saw S&W revolvers lock-up long before the internal lock was a gleam in the Clinton's eyes. The most common causes were the ammunition being used, reloaded ammo being the number one culprit there, and/or the operator.


Excerpts From:
The S&W Revolver Internal Lock
By Chris Baker
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/s...internal-lock/

"Despite all the damning evidence, the Smith & Wesson internal lock problem is likely not as bad as it appears. In truth, we only have anecdotal evidence that some S&W locks have malfunctioned. We have no real data that would indicate the prevalence of such problems. You can also find anecdotal evidence of exploding Glocks, slides flying off Berettas, and self-firing Remington 700s. Taken individually, none of these reports necessarily indicate any specific trend or “epidemic”. Guns are machines and all machines fail eventually. Some design weaknesses can make certain failures more likely, but it’s really tricky to determine just how likely."

"The reported problems often involve revolvers that have had custom work performed on them, or were pre-owned. It’s also a safe assumption that many broken lock claims have come from S&W owners who tinkered with their revolvers but chose to leave that fact out of their “report”."

"Many of the so-called “internal lock failures” can actually be attributed to user error or some other problem not lock related. Of course, a broken gun is a broken gun, but not all supposed lock failures are genuinely what their owners initially assume they are."

Full Article:
The S&W Revolver Internal Lock
By Chris Baker
Follow Link then click on "Continue to LuckyGunner.com"
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/s...internal-lock/

Attached Images

	SW9869mm.jpg (92.8 KB, 128 views)
	SW62545ACP.jpg (130.7 KB, 131 views)
	SW342.jpg (70.0 KB, 123 views)
	K6SCDP.jpg (133.8 KB, 124 views)
	K6SDCR.jpg (108.5 KB, 125 views)

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Ad Astra Per Aspera

Some years ago, a very serious expert in the field, active in LE, training, and ballistics research, mentioned in a discussion (I think it was on another forum more directed to military/LE folks) that he was aware of agencies that prohibit lockable revolvers from being carried by officers because they are unsafe.

I don't care about the esthetics, but I won't have a firearm that is not at least potentially suitable for serious use, which precludes the lock models. It is not only a solution in search of a problem, but counterproductive (unsafe) in a serious use firearm.

Range toy? Fine. Hunting, SD, etc? No. Hell no. A zillion times hell no.

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NHI, 10-8.

I have a couple of early production revolvers that came w/lock, but they are gone now. With all of the negative stuff you hear on here about Taurus, I sure wish that S&W had put their lock on the back of the hammer like they did-of course, a lock on a revolver is like teets on a boar hog, as my old grand dad used to say.

It wouldn't have mattered where S&W put it, people would have complained.

As long as there's no bashing, there's no reason why the thread should be closed. For those unfamiliar with the term bashing, read the sticky on top of this section or click on the link below.

Bashing, Crying, & Whining

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So many S&W's, so few funds!!

Since S&W has been selling lock revolvers for almost 20 years, and we live in such a litigious society, there must be hundreds of successfully lawsuits documenting lock problems. Lawyers and damaged owners must be making millions off all these well researched failures.

Lock Trolls: Please post links to just a few of these many lawsuits, I wanna get my payout. One would be enough.

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~ S&W aficionado in training ~

I appreciate that this was a first hand experience. Not a friend of a friend, ect.

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Just hanging with my dogs

I wonder how many rounds have been fired thru S&W revolvers with locks by forum members in the last 20 years. I suspect that it's a considerable number and that failures are at a very, very small rate. This is the first, first hand report I've seen here. I plan on keeping my revolvers with locks and will probably buy more.

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Foster Positivity.

Screw "legality".
Also, if S&W can make guns like the 643 with or without the lock, why don't they offer that option in EVERY revolver? I mean, damn, installing the lock actually takes more steps, parts, and work. Just eliminate it already!

Not the first time this has happened and wont be the last.

Our agency, as well as the two neighboring agencies, forbid the use of IL equipped revolvers. For off duty as well.

We had two IL equipped J-frames lock up on the range during annual qualifications.

A lot of agencies forbid their use. Why do you think they finally started making lock free J-frames again? They were losing LE sales and MONEY! Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I guess if you relied on the IL to keep someone from using the gun. That could be a factor. But, if you rely on the IL for safe storage, this is probably not a smart idea.

Your saying the failure of a safety lock on a firearm wouldn't attract legal attention in our day and age? Turn on the TV. Gun issues are kinda a big deal right now. Some days it's all they talk about.

That lock is there to protect children from evil dangerous guns, and everyone knows guns can just "go off" by themselves. Failure of that lock puts children at risk!

Get that in front of a jury in the right venue and make millions off a wicked Gun Merchant. Where are all the millionaires? In 20 years, not even one?

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~ S&W aficionado in training ~

Plaintiffs attorney or prosecutor:

“So, you deliberately removed the safety mechanism from your revolver before shooting the deceased? Why is that? Is a deadly weapon not deadly enough for your tastes? You were so anxious to kill someone, you removed the safety?”

It doesn’t matter if any of it is accurate or true. There’s probably no one in the courtroom who understood anything, except that you shot someone with a gun you had removed a safety device from. A jury has heard it. Had the hole been left alone, you may not be there in the first place.

“Oh, so it’s not a safety but a storage lock? What purpose does it serve? To prevent unauthorized persons from using the weapon? That sounds like children. So you endangered children so you could use your gun to kill someone quicker? Is that a true statement, Mister Killer?”